Peterborough North

[Clive Mortimore]

So long as you have something else happening for the viewers no layout would be too long. When Mike Edge first exhibited Herculaneum Dock with no overhead the pressure was on the main line and yard/dock operators to keep something moving .. with the Liverpool Overhead now trundling along you can have a less pressured operating experience.

 

For Peterborough North the question seems to be  how to disguise the entry/exit to the rest of the world. Extra space could have given a bit more "straight" track before curving off .. but is there another way using visual "cheats"? Ie use of curved backscenes. covered in "darkness" the other side of Spital Bridge??

 

Baz

Hi Baz

 

A layout like Herculaneum Dock where there are many things to keep the viewer occupied does not have to rely on continuous movement. I was thinking more of the open country or country station type main line layout where movement is the main attraction.

 

While out with the dog this morning I was thinking of the country mainline layout length, an thought a scenic stretch no bigger (or smaller) than 3 times the length of the average express train. When it is in the middle it still gives the illusion of having somewhere to go and has come from somewhere else.  Any shorter and that sense of it travelling disappears. Any longer and time between trains can become too great and punter boredom sets in.

[great northern]

So long as you have something else happening for the viewers no layout would be too long. When Mike Edge first exhibited Herculaneum Dock with no overhead the pressure was on the main line and yard/dock operators to keep something moving .. with the Liverpool Overhead now trundling along you can have a less pressured operating experience.

 

For Peterborough North the question seems to be  how to disguise the entry/exit to the rest of the world. Extra space could have given a bit more "straight" track before curving off .. but is there another way using visual "cheats"? Ie use of curved backscenes. covered in "darkness" the other side of Spital Bridge??

 

Baz

 PN was never going to be an exhibition layout, but having read the comments about what is necessary to keep the viewing public happy, I wonder if it could ever work anyway. The built in operating nightmares would be enough of a problem in themselves, but what about the 20mph speed limit? I can't see many visitors being impressed by that, apart from the time it would take to get a train off scene so that another could appear before boredom set in. Then there is the further problem resulting from my determination to be able to access anywhere in the fiddle yard from anywhere on the visble section. That creates conflicting moves at both ends, and has proved to be a real drawback on the occasions when there has been more than one operator available. If one had the space, and the money, it could be lengthened, and then I suppose the Midland lines could be made totally separate, so that something could be kept going on there as well, but the greater length would also just compound the problems I've already mentioned. The more I think about it, the less I think it would work.

 

As to the vexed subject of those end curves, I keep starting to think about them, but the inevitable result is that it comes under the heading of - too difficult, brain meltdown warning imminent, defer. My excuse is that I need to get the correct bridges in position before I can assess this properly. Spital Bridge will be even more of a problem than it is now, as it will be a single long girder span, so far more will be visible through and under it. I do have some ideas based around a backscene extending in for the last four feet from that end, but that needs a representation of Spital Bridge shed, and the Cenotaph coaling tower, which again is presently filed under "too difficult".

[westerner]

As this isn't an exhibition layout aren't we getting a trifle over worried about the curves at the end of the layout. WE only know they are there through your photographs Gilbert.    After all, all roundy-roundy layouts have to have curves at the end and if you are restricted by width and also length as you wanted to make the station as long as possible the curves are going to be seen in photos unless of course you crop them or as already has been suggested hide with a backscene immediately behind the bridges.

 

Personally I wouldn't be worried at all as long as it does not effect the running.

[The Blue Streak]

 Gilbert, this is how I see things.

 

You set out to build a model PN which incorporates the area between the 2 bridges and that you have achieved. The rest of the layout is for one reason and that is in order to allow the area between the Bridges to function.

Think of it like a Swan, we look at it on the water and think how graceful it is, yet we know that there is pair of feet thrashing around with somewhat less grace to make that happen. The most beautiful of clocks still require a mechanism to make it work.

 

I'm sure when you're operating it to schedule your mind is more taken up by the functional side of it. The time will come that you may simply like to sit and watch the trains go by, at which point your eye will be drawn to that brilliant area between the bridges and not what's beyond that - the world ends at the Bridge what happens after that matters not.

 

If the curves work well in a practical sense that is all that is required, if they bother you a little, a few well placed trees next to the curves or perhaps a wall or cutting may do the trick, if that's not as per prototype it's doesn't really matter, because your little illusion only needs to go to the bridge, after that it doesn't really exist, the train has left the station and is on it's way. 

 

When you were spotting all those years ago, once that train had gone, it was gone (where to probably didn't matter) and you just waited for the next one.

 

How the layout looks to you from your usual vantage point in the room is the most important, when you are there, does is make you happy? Because that's the most important thing, how it appears in a photo when one has had to contort into various positions in order to get that realistic picture under the bridge is  all secondary. Just my two cents worth.

 

You're nearly there Gilbert, just have fun with it !!

 

Edited (not very well) for spelling and grammar !!!

Edited October 21, 2014 by The Blue Streak

[Richard E]

All it needs is a representation of the rampant buddleia that now infests the area- that'll provide a scenic break ....

[great northern]

Thanks for the comments folks. I don't intend to get too wound up about , and it certainly won't spoil my fun, but you see I have wandered away from the original concept, and therein lies a problem. Originally, the two bridges were to form "the end of the world", so whatever existed beyond them, didn't, if you see what I mean. However, some then decided to get Gravy Train to build Crescent Junction signal box, didn't he? And that means that there is now reality beyond the bridge at that end. Actually, there will be even more reality around there soon, as I couldn't resist commissioning a couple more signals.....

 

So, I do feel that I now need to develop that area more. Spital Bridge hopefully will not present the same problem though. I've scoured the invaluable " British Railways Steaming Through Peterborough", yet again, and the image below seems to be one of the closest I'll get to an original view. It is reproduced by kind permission of, and acknowledging the copyright of, Andrew C Ingram, and is not to be further reproduced please.

 

Here then is a photo of a not very steam tight A3, 60039 Sandwich, about to go under the bridge. And below is my effort to reproduce it.

I was not assisted by the sun, which chose to come out fully as I pressed the shutter. It is the overall effect we are looking for, but I acknowledge the following:- right loco, but wrong crest on tender. Right type of carriage, BSO, but, had I not blurred the number, you would have seen that it was three digits out.   I haven't a clue as to how to reproduce all that steam, but is there some clever person out there who can? My bridge is wrong too, but that will be corrected ere long. And I should not have put that hut there.

 

Looking at the two images with a hyper critical eye, there is a lot more which is wrong - the signal box is too close to the bridge, and at the wrong angle for a start. Allowing for the fact that I just can't get the same zoom effect, and that even with my small camera, the shot was taken from too high up, the overall effect does not, to me anyway, look too far out. Behind the signal box on the  real life shot is the old Midland station, which serependitiously looks as though it is a sort of cardboard cut out, as that means that I can ask Gravy Train to do something very low relief to fill in the space behind. In the distance one would have seen the vague outline of Nene carriage sidings, so some sort of trickery might allow that to be put in. As to the scene to the left of the bridge, conveniently obscured by the loco, don't ask...yet.

 

At least I managed to get a 17 letter word into a post.

[gordon s]

It was only 17 in P4.  00 took it down to 16…..:-)

 

Just catching up and as always, some beautiful work, Gilbert.

Edited October 22, 2014 by gordon s

[jwealleans]

 

I managed to get a 17 letter word into a post.

 

You mean this one: 'serependitiously' ?

 

I can only count 16 and if you spell it correctly it should only be 15.

 

There, that's saved someone else some typing.

[great northern]

You mean this one: 'serependitiously' ?

 

I can only count 16 and if you spell it correctly it should only be 15.

 

There, that's saved someone else some typing.

Yes, but I was close though, wasn't  I?

[t-b-g]

To me, the "wrong" curves stand out more in photos than they do in real life. When you stand on the inside of a curve, which is the normal viewing angle, all you see is that you still have a side view of the train as it goes round. It is only when you are on the outside of a curve, or looking along it, that it is really noticable.

 

So I think that the desire to recreate prototype views and photos is what shows the curves to be the modelling compromise that they are, rather than any flaw in the concept of the layout. Even then, those views of the A3 going under the bridge do not really seem too different to me. Once you have the focal points of the loco and the bridge, the surroundings and track arrangements are very much secondary factors in the way I look at such things.

 

Having said that, if anything jumps out in those views it is the trap point and the ground disc on the real thing as they are right in the foreground. Add those and the concrete trunking and all of a sudden the model gets very close to the real thing indeed.

 

I see those two new signals in the prototype photo! Won't be long before they can appear on the model photo too. Just one handrail and a lick of paint to go.......

 

Tony

[islandbridgejct]

Yes, but I think you may mean 'serendipitously' which in P4 works out at 18.82 letters, or as near to 19 as makes no difference.

 

You've shortened it, appropriately, to 16.5 letters, by losing 'ndi' but then sticking an 'i' back in after the 't'.

 

A clear case of art mimicking life. Or should that be life mimicking art? Or maybe models mimicking ... oh, forget it, my brain can't handle analogies. (It's like a J15 on the Coronation like that.)

 

As to the question of what to put in the space beyond the end of the world, carriage sidings might be a good idea. It's certainly not something to worry about, because the world, as Copernicus found out, is round. And so is your layout. (Which is how we like it.)

 

All the best,

 

 

Alan

Edited October 24, 2014 by islandbridgejct

[Mallard60022]

Good morning. Having had some R & R during the last ten days I am now ready to get back to enjoying PN and annoying people wherever possible.

Part of my my R & R was actually quite moving as I attended Geoff Brewin's (Comet Models) celebration of his life in Upton on Bishop (close to Ross on Wye) yesterday (Sunday 26th). I/we will miss you mate, however a little bit of your modelling magic will live on in 'East Devon'*.

However, the main purpose of my trip was to have a look at the 'remains' of Seaton Junction*. This is what my new layout will be based on.

OK I had to do some sightseeing whilst SWMBO was in residence but that was incidental (apart from a most enjoyable day on the Seaton Tramway).

Once SWMBO had toddled off to Reading half way through the week I was able to look at S.J'n with a local and very worthy fellow RMWebber from just down the road from that very place. (Many thanks Graham)

What's he on about I hear the cries?

Well, I know it has changed just a tad, however I was really surprised at how compact the original station, branch and yard area actually is/was. 

Yes I know that way back then the main line west swept gracefully away towards Honiton Incline but the area I'm modelling is/will be manageable with only a tiny bit if scenic compromising.

This 'discovery' was welcome as I was getting jittery about length (my age probably.....).

If I am a clever little s*d I shall be able to use theatrical technique to create an impression of distance.........yessssssss!

So Gilbert my friend, work on that little voice that maybe says "ooohh, Gilbert, look at those curves....." and concentrate on just how superb your station area is. If Seaton Junctionish is a fraction as clever I shall be a happy boy.

Sincerely,

Phil (back at) 36E 

P.S. Don't quite know how but I accidentally went into Buffers (near Axminster) and some stuff fell into a bag.

The on Friday last I discovered a great little Model Shop (Richard's Railways) in Yatton of all places (some family live in Yatton) and lo, some more stuff fell into a bag......

I'm going to have to try to discover what this compulsion for bags of 'stuff' is all about  

Edited October 27, 2014 by Mallard60022

[bigwordsmith]

MR. Duck,

 

Please tell me that nothing which 'fell into your bag' contained the combination of cream and chocolate brown?' I used to be a regular customer of Messrs. Froude & Hext in Swindon where I acquired many a cheap Apple Green pacific as they had little understanding of the true value of a Doncaster product, but always found it easy to resist the lure of brass topped chimneys, beautifully polished cones, and even green-painted tank engines, pottering through gorgeous scenery by the banks of twinkling rivers.

 

Damn I'm coming over all Brunel-ish _ Quick reach for some books on the Waverley Route!

 

Peter

[Mallard60022]

MR. Duck,

 

Please tell me that nothing which 'fell into your bag' contained the combination of cream and chocolate brown?' I used to be a regular customer of Messrs. Froude & Hext in Swindon where I acquired many a cheap Apple Green pacific as they had little understanding of the true value of a Doncaster product, but always found it easy to resist the lure of brass topped chimneys, beautifully polished cones, and even green-painted tank engines, pottering through gorgeous scenery by the banks of twinkling rivers.

 

Damn I'm coming over all Brunel-ish _ Quick reach for some books on the Waverley Route!

 

Peter

I almost bought a GWR/WR Horsebox in maroon and then one of the Long CCT vans (ER maroon)......do those count? Then I also twitched very seriously about some Hornby Gresley Sleepers (proper jobs with turnbuckles) at half price but remembered I only really need one Gresley/SR Cafeteria car conversion, not three!

I am informed that the new Hornby sound in their Tornado is pretty good considering the low, low price of the sound chip. Fortunately I did not weaken.......but there was a very good looking T9 up on a shelf in Richard's shop. Must repeat 100 times...."I do not need another T9.....".

P

[teaky]

Hi Great Northern.

 

Worried about curves?  I watched "4472 Flying Scotsman" on BBC iPlayer yesterday.  Even if you don't watch the whole programme, I recommend a quick look at the closing scene where the train approaches the camera head on along a straight before turning off scene.  Before the train negotiates it you'd swear the curve just in front of the camera was train set radius.  An intriguing bit of perspective.

Edited October 27, 2014 by teaky

[bigwordsmith]

Mr. Duck 

 

I suppose we could allow a horse box - after all there were plenty of racing venues served by the East Coast - actually thinking about it that would make a very interesting special... ( Possible feature in BRM Andy? - Unusual freights and race days)

 

Personally I would suggest you have a duty to rescue anything that you found marooned in the dark wilds of the West so it can to be safely repatriated to its proper stomping ground - at least that's what tell the boss.

 

SO far she hasn't got round to wondering why there seems to be an inexhaustible supply of repatriation candidates in the general vicinity of Mr. Hatton's Yard in Liverpool, nor how I manage to do such an altruistic rescue job without ever leaving my chair!

[great northern]

I'm feeling a bit left out here I have no-one here to question me when parcels arrive, or when I come home carrying a bag of goodies. Obviously I'm missing out on something. Should I go looking to fill this gap in my life experience? Or should I just go and get some more goodies instead?

[davidw]

I'm trying to convince my wife that a K1 would be really nice when released. She's convinced that an awful lot of Christmas purchases should be cut back to have a better winter break. 

 

Negotiation negotiation... and wave the white flag... 

[bigwordsmith]

Ah Gilbert,

 

I suspect you have a lot of sympathy from us all for that predicament - ever thought of a dog? They're great at making you feel guilty when you decide that a model requires more attention than their desire for a walk!

 

 

ATB

 

Peter

[great northern]

To me, the "wrong" curves stand out more in photos than they do in real life. When you stand on the inside of a curve, which is the normal viewing angle, all you see is that you still have a side view of the train as it goes round. It is only when you are on the outside of a curve, or looking along it, that it is really noticable.

 

So I think that the desire to recreate prototype views and photos is what shows the curves to be the modelling compromise that they are, rather than any flaw in the concept of the layout. Even then, those views of the A3 going under the bridge do not really seem too different to me. Once you have the focal points of the loco and the bridge, the surroundings and track arrangements are very much secondary factors in the way I look at such things.

 

Having said that, if anything jumps out in those views it is the trap point and the ground disc on the real thing as they are right in the foreground. Add those and the concrete trunking and all of a sudden the model gets very close to the real thing indeed.

 

I see those two new signals in the prototype photo! Won't be long before they can appear on the model photo too. Just one handrail and a lick of paint to go.......

 

Tony

Yes indeed Tony, it is indeed my desire to recreate prototype views that sometimes causes a bit of dissatisfaction. In general though, I'm really very pleased with the whole thing. I spent a good deal of time yesterday watching Peter Leyland work - watching others work is one of my major strengths- and so just sat and looked at the layout far more than I usually do. It did not disappoint me.

 

As to the ground signal, the trunking and the trap point, all are there, as the photo below shows, though the trap point is indistinct. The amount of zoom I had to use on the photo of the A3 nearly removed them though. I'm looking forward to those signals........

[jwealleans]

 

I have no-one here to question me when parcels arrive, or when I come home carrying a bag of goodies

You could try posting them on here, unopened and then we could have a couple of pages frothing about what you've bought?

[The Stationmaster]

You could try posting them on here, unopened and then we could have a couple of pages frothing about what you've bought?

Or even tut-tutting if you feel left out  (and of course you are missing out on learning numerous smuggling methods, and techniques of hiding parcels under your coat, or the slight of hand involved in placing a newly arrived box innocently among past arrivals, or such useful phrases as 'I saved X% buying it this week/month/year as I would have to buy one in the end anyway').

[HerbertHopkins]

I'm feeling a bit left out here I have no-one here to question me when parcels arrive, or when I come home carrying a bag of goodies. Obviously I'm missing out on something. Should I go looking to fill this gap in my life experience? Or should I just go and get some more goodies instead?

 

I'd go out and buy more goodies if I were you Gilbert. You'll probably find that, in the long run, it's the cheaper option!

[Mallard60022]

Or even tut-tutting if you feel left out  (and of course you are missing out on learning numerous smuggling methods, and techniques of hiding parcels under your coat, or the slight of hand involved in placing a newly arrived box innocently among past arrivals, or such useful phrases as 'I saved X% buying it this week/month/year as I would have to buy one in the end anyway').

You have been reading my book of how to import packages the safe way.

Sadly, now that Geoff has passed on, I can no longer use the ..." .......ah, Geoff has sent me that coach someone wanted me to build...".

Actually I'm sure SWMBO knows exactly what I'm up to.

Re frothing about unknown contents; brilliant idea Wellyboy. Please note I did not reveal what 'fell into a/my bag' earlier.

P

[great northern]

I have made a resolution, nothing to do with whether or not to get a "parcel detector", just that I should run trains more often. I confess that a sneak preview of the next few moves on the sequence helped to motivate me, but also tested my stern resolve that I would not allow photography to divert my attention. I compromised, so you get photos, but no photoshopping, so I spend less time in front of the PC. It worked quite well actually, as the sequence has moved on a bit, and yet there are quite a few images to follow.

 

We start with something prosaic, and an attempt to curry favour with at least one of our regular visitors.

Station pilot propels the stock for the 5.13pm to March through to one of the North end carriage sidings. And if one hopes to curry favour, a close up will do no harm.

The N5 having scurried through, our colleague at the other end has spotted something more glamorous, and attempts a somewhat hopeful shot.

Which came off better than expected. Sheer fluke.

60003 has been the regular choice for the Scotch Goods for some time, and today is no exception. This is artfully composed to show the progress made when Gravy Train visited yesterday. The new building in the District Engineer's complex is now much nearer to completion, though there is still more work to be done.

We even have a man on Spital Bridge today, and he took this panoramic shot, though I would have preferred it not to include Stanley the knife, and 'Arry the hammer, or part of his head anyway.

On the Down slow, a local WD clanks in with yet more coal empties.

As the Glasgow - KX arrives behind Mons Meg, which will come off here.

We see her just starting to draw forward,

and having crossed to the Down line, she now heads for New England. I reckon this is probably the most flattering angle from which to view Mr Thompson's creation. And the boy who whispered that the best place to view it would be in the middle of Stoke tunnel is very naughty indeed.

Meanwhile, Walter K Whigham, which has been patiently waiting in the bay platform, has moved forward,and is now reversing onto the train.

Which it(he?) has now done.

But before it can depart, the Afternoon Talisman swings into sight behind Dominion of Canada. This shot was inspired by a Colin Walker image, but coyright issues mean I can't reproduce it here.

We can have a closer look at these two though.

To close, we have a couple more views of the District Engineer's area, this first one to give a general impression.

and this one to show more of Gravy Train's latest creation than just the rather featureless end of it. That's all for now, folks.