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Hi Gilbert,

 

I've spent some time on David Hey's site this evening (http://www.davidheyscollection.com/index.htm) now there's a site you can lose a few hours on!

 

I'm sure you must have seen this before, but just in case you haven't, there's a couple of elevated photos of Peterborough North taken around 1958, which have some fascinating details in them.

 

I'll post them as a link as I'm not sure about copyright

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0001-dh-peterborough.jpg

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/d-green-d201-peterborough.jpg

 

It looks a lot busier then!

 

Cheers,

 

Al

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Duck,

 

A couple of books that may interest you, both by David Gould and published by Oakwood Press. Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock and Bulleid's SR Steam Passenger Stock. The appendices provide the set that each carriage was in at any time, so by reverse engineering, you can work out the carriages in each set. Remember that only the Bournemouth Dining Sets (290 - 300) actually had the catering stock incorporated within the set, otherwise they were "loose" coaches.

 

Together with Mike King's An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches (OPC), these will provide an insight into SR carriages. Mike's interest is in the carriages themselves, whilst David is more informative about the sets.

 

Thereafter, you need to beg, borrow or steal a copy of a BR document with the (approximate) title of Waterloo Carriage Workings. This will give you the make up of every train and the destination of every set or vehicle. Don't think it tells which way round the BCK's were, probably only relevant if there were a restaurant pair at the end of a down train, because you were only allowed eight axles behind the last brake.

 

Bill

Edited by bbishop
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Those David Hey pics are no good for us members of the L&CA, so many coaches to tempt us.  I do like that rake of Mk1s and LMS coaches in the first shot, especially the one closest to the camera.  Does anyone know what type that is (sorry, I am not up to speed on LMS stock).

 

What also interests me is the number of locos around in that first shot too, perhaps 7 or so counting the ones you can see and the smoke trails, and with the number of people in bright clothing leaning out open windows perhaps suggests a summer Saturday?

 

Thanks for posting them.

 

Cheers

Tony

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Hi Gilbert,

 

I've spent some time on David Hey's site this evening (http://www.davidheyscollection.com/index.htm) now there's a site you can lose a few hours on!

 

I'm sure you must have seen this before, but just in case you haven't, there's a couple of elevated photos of Peterborough North taken around 1958, which have some fascinating details in them.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0001-dh-peterborough.jpg

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/d-green-d201-peterborough.jpg

 

 

Yes Al, I've 'lost' myself in the David Hey site before now...

 

First photo is interesting - looks to be a loco change going on in the foreground as the rake of LMS stock is obviously en route somewhere, with real live people inside it yet not at a platform face. Loco either backing on or just easing off (my hunch is the former) looks like it has a Stanier tender (Black 5?) whereas the one alongside has an LNER standard tender (B1?) I note also not a sign of a catering vehicle anywhere in the coaches we can see so I'm wondering whether this is a Sats only summer holiday train. In which case, this could be post-1959 and the closure of the M&GN hence a holiday train from the East Anglian coast on its way back to the midlands?

 

Note also, in the ECML train in the background, what appears to be a two coach through portion at the front of the train.

 

No doubt the man himself will put us right on such matters when he returns from searching for his golf balls...

Edited by LNER4479
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I'm not primarily an LNER modeller, as you know, so the intricacies of the different coaching stock are lost on me, but just looking at the two photos I have spotted a couple of things that I find interesting, first, that all the visible signal gantries appear to be a dark colour, rather than white - I would guess that's accumulation of muck rather than a deliberate policy?

 

And also, the first photo is taken more or less in line with the run of those big telegraph poles that the Duck is so fond of... but it's interesting to see how they stride off across the landscape into the distance, and also how the base of the near one and the yard lamp appear padded and painted bright white, to avoid being walked into.

Edited by acg_mr
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Yes Al, I've 'lost' myself in the David Hey site before now...

 

First photo is interesting - looks to be a loco change going on in the foreground as the rake of LMS stock is obviously en route somewhere, with real live people inside it yet not at a platform face. Loco either backing on or just easing off (my hunch is the former) looks like it has a Stanier tender (Black 5?) whereas the one alongside has an LNER standard tender (B1?) I note also not a sign of a catering vehicle anywhere in the coaches we can see so I'm wondering whether this is a Sats only summer holiday train. In which case, this could be post-1959 and the closure of the M&GN hence a holiday train from the East Anglian coast on its way back to the midlands?

 

Note also, in the ECML train in the background, what appears to be a two coach through portion at the front of the train.

 

No doubt the man himself will put us right on such matters when he returns from searching for his golf balls...

The M&GNJR did not carry all the holiday traffic from the midlands. Most went via the LNWR or MR lines to Peterborough East and then over the GER lines even before 1959. At busy times trains working between the MR and the GER would have their locomotives changed outside of the MR locomotive shed at Peterborough taking the pressure off the limited passenger lines at Peterborough East. This is not part of the Peterborough scene that Gilbert has modelled as he has stated in the past he did not have room for the MR lines as well.

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I'm having difficulty in keeping up! Thanks for the links Al, As you surmised, I have seen those images, both of which are in the invaluable British Railways Steaming through Peterborough. The captions can be dodgy though, and I'm sure that both of these are later than 1958. Dealing with the first one, it does indeed show an engine change taking place, on a train from the East Coast to Leicester/Rugby/Birmingham. Engines were changed here as it is right outside Spital Bridge shed, which is just off to the left. Peterborough East was nearly as cramped as North, so the prospect of occupying a platform road at either on a summer Saturday, which this undoubtedly is, would be quickly discarded. These trains were almost exclusively SO, and did as Clive says exist even before the demise of the M&GN. This photo was definitely taken after that closure though, as the brand new Parcels facility, seen in the top right corner, is open for business, and that didn't happen until after the M&GN finished.

 

This is, as Clive says, off scene for me, which is probably a very good thing, given the variety of ex LMS locos and stock required, but I wouldn't have minded those telegraph poles, which are but an anaemic shadow of the ones over the other side of North station!

 

As to the stock, well the LNER of course built dedicated "tourist stock" specifically to carry excursionists, so perhaps it is not surprising that so much open stock is in use on a Summer Saturday, My recent research has revealed one KX- Skegness working which was specified as all TSO's, and a couple of BSK's, though the rest of the Skeggy trains were corridor stock. As to the train departing behind the V2 over on the ex GN lines, it was not at all unusual for the Eastern to stick ordinary stock outside the brakes, sometimes when these vehicles were strengtheners, when one can see that it would have been the quickest and most convenient way to do it, but also in the official formations of scheduled trains. My KX - Cleethorpes rake for instance correctly has two MK1 SK's at the very front, and there are other instances too. I've no idea what this train was, except that it was likely to be another SO service, which again would account for the use of open stock, and probably the V2 up front as well.

 

Now, the other image. I'd be very surprised if this was summer 1958, given the presence of an absolutely filthy double kylchap A3 in number 4 bay, waiting no doubt to take over a Down train. As the first double chimney conversion wasn't completed until June '58, I'd be very surprised if even the likes of Doncaster or Gateshead managed to get one into this state within a very few weeks.  It is a GN tender loco too, so probably not a NE engine, and very few GN section engines got double chimneys early on. Again, I'd say '59 is much more likely. The first 40 on the ECML was D201 in April '58, and one or two of the later ones, D206/7/8 did arrive just in time for the summer service that year, but that A3 still convinces me this is later.

 

Those gantries probably hadn't been cleaned for many years Al, mine need toning down a lot more. Would that help or hinder the photoshopping though? I've looked at this image many times, but as usual I now spot things for the first time. Two of the coaches in the foreground, which are in Platform 6, appear to have Scottish number prefixes for a start, and there is the tender of a loco just in view on the extreme right. The train is clearly occupied, so what is going on? Platform 6 was signalled for working in both directions, but was only accessible from the Down side, so this cannot be an Up through service. If it were a train starting at North and ready to head South, the stock would surely be much further down the platform, and the loco would be down t'other end, and not in view. This looks, despite what I said above, as though it might be a train which has arrived from the South or come up from East station, and which is now reversing direction, hence a new engine coming on at what was the rear. I know of no train in the WTT though which would do that, so a special working is the only possibility I can come up with. If this was a Northbound engine change, the carriages would be at the platform, not stuck right up at the North end. If anyone can come up with an explanation for this, I would be very grateful. I can only think of a football special which has come up the ECML, and is now to be taken down to East, which was the closest station to Peterborough United's ground. United were not a Football league club at the time though, and it would be far too early in the season for one of their famous FA Cup giantkilling campaigns.

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Those David Hey pics are no good for us members of the L&CA, so many coaches to tempt us.  I do like that rake of Mk1s and LMS coaches in the first shot, especially the one closest to the camera.  Does anyone know what type that is (sorry, I am not up to speed on LMS stock).

 

Tony

The rake of LMS coaches nearest the camera are from lower right to loco :-

D1745 all-steel open third,  

D2119 post-war corridor third,

D2117 post-war corridor composite (60')

D1915 'Excursion' Open Third,

D1807 Period II open third,

D1905 corridor brake third.                   (I have used the as-built terminology. Replace third with second for post 1956)

 

Mk.I's are of little interest to me so excuse the brief overview. They look to be :-

 

Open Second

Open brake second

Open brake second

Corridor brake second

 

The other picture showing mostly Gresley stock :-

61' 6" Maroon D186 open third (Scottish region)

61' 6" Maroon D186

61' 6" Blood & custard D178 corridor brake third

 

GE Section 52' 6" corridor brake third (with English Electric Type 4)

 

LMS D1715 50' all-steel corridor full brake (blood & custard livery). Although amongst the earliest LMS full brakes, these all-steel vans were routinely used at the front of passenger consists due to their ability to absorb impact in the event of a derailment or collision, and so they were painted like passenger coaches while the full brakes of normal construction were often painted carmine red (plain maroon after 1956).

Edited by coachmann
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Duck,

 

A couple of books that may interest you, both by David Gould and published by Oakwood Press. Maunsell's SR Steam Carriage Stock and Bulleid's SR Steam Passenger Stock. The appendices provide the set that each carriage was in at any time, so by reverse engineering, you can work out the carriages in each set. Remember that only the Bournemouth Dining Sets (290 - 300) actually had the catering stock incorporated within the set, otherwise they were "loose" coaches.

 

Together with Mike King's An Illustrated History of Southern Coaches (OPC), these will provide an insight into SR carriages. Mike's interest is in the carriages themselves, whilst David is more informative about the sets.

 

Thereafter, you need to beg, borrow or steal a copy of a BR document with the (approximate) title of Waterloo Carriage Workings. This will give you the make up of every train and the destination of every set or vehicle. Don't think it tells which way round the BCK's were, probably only relevant if there were a restaurant pair at the end of a down train, because you were only allowed eight axles behind the last brake.

 

Bill

Sorry chaps, OT a moment. Thanks Bishop. I have all those books and have gone back to them this last couple of days. It is the document you mention that I identified just last evening and am now going to search for and Mr Carroll's informative stuff.

Coach's identification of LMS stock is invaluable.... maybe he should get a 'consultant's' fee?

Thanks 

Phil.

Edited by Mallard60022
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Starting to catch up now, so on to the vexed subject of over large loco lamps. The 9F in the shot on the previous page had Bachmann lamps, which are plastic, and a bit bigger even than the Springside BR ones. I've now done what I should have done before Andy took his photo, and put Springside LNER lamps on, with a bit of powder weathering. This is just a quick snap to show the difference, no attempt at all to get the shot right.

post-98-0-14378600-1417781841_thumb.jpg

I couldn't figure out how to get Andy's image onto this, so I'll have to ask you to go back to the last page to compare. My view is that these are sufficiently less obtrusive to be acceptable, so I'll gradually replace all the overscale ones. It won't be a quick job, as I hate drilling the lamps out.

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maths can be such a graceful thing, i would love to see it in practice and see how long it takes to extract one formation and deliver the next.

Richard

OK, I've got round to this at last. To run a brake from a spur, then lift a 4ft cassette from the storage box, instal and run the stock out, repeat with another 4ft cassette, and finally add the other brake, took 1 minute and 25 seconds. That gives me a 10 coach train in Road 1, so I then just put a loco on the front, and off we go. It will take a little longer if I need to put catering cars or another brake in the middle, but even for an impatient old sod like me it doesn't feel unreasonable. Bearing in mind that it isn't necessary to do this with every train in the sequence, and that even when it is necessary quite a lot of the trains only involve one cassette, and I'm happy that the benefits that accrue from doing it far outweigh the time and fiddling about needed to do it.

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Starting to catch up now, so on to the vexed subject of over large loco lamps. The 9F in the shot on the previous page had Bachmann lamps, which are plastic, and a bit bigger even than the Springside BR ones. I've now done what I should have done before Andy took his photo, and put Springside LNER lamps on, with a bit of powder weathering. This is just a quick snap to show the difference, no attempt at all to get the shot right.

attachicon.gif9F lamps.jpg

I couldn't figure out how to get Andy's image onto this, so I'll have to ask you to go back to the last page to compare. My view is that these are sufficiently less obtrusive to be acceptable, so I'll gradually replace all the overscale ones. It won't be a quick job, as I hate drilling the lamps out.

 

I think the over scale loco lamps are an eyesore to me. Bachmann (when you can get them) do far closer to scale ones fairly cheaply - which although non region specific look far  better. The down side is that the lamps are far harder to put holes in, and the flimsiness of the Hornby lamp irons in particular become apparent.

Edited by davidw
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Puissantly I think that if you want to go changing lamps every time you move a loco, you should be in 'O'Gauge. 

 

IMHO I'd rather have a smaller lamp e.g. TT scale that doesn't eat out of a pic at you and accept thot for some moves - i.e. light engine there will be some wrongly amped locos.

 

Let's be honest can anyone here absolutely prove that fireman never forgot to switch lamps at the end of along run?

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Just about up to date now, I think, but I did say that I would post some more photos of the cassette system, to save having to trawl back many pages to get the details.

post-98-0-76058300-1417784036_thumb.jpg

So, here are the ingredients:-

Take one sheet of 6mm MDF, and cut it, or get it cut, into a number of 2 inch and three inch lengths. Pin the appropriate length of track to the 2 inch wide bit, turn over, and if the securing pins have penetrated through, just file them smooth. Then attach the 3 inch bits to the sides, for which I found PVA quite sufficient. This can be done as a one man job, but only with much cursing and potential apoplexy. it really needs three hands, so I recommend getting a friend to help. You will inevitably have some bits left over when the board has been cut up, and they come in useful to use as strengthening pieces across the top of the cassette. Do work out though where the end of your rake of coaches or wagons will come, as you need to be able to get your fingers in to apply whatever you are going to use to secure the ends. How do I know that?......

 

You now have a light but strong assembly. I started by putting velcro on the ends, so that I could stick another piece of MDF across to prevent stock falling out, but I have found that thick foam sheet, cut to an interference fit, does the job perfectly well, and is less hard on couplings if the stock moves a bit. Length of cassettes? My longest are 4ft long, and I reckon that is the practical maximum. My operating well is 2ft 9 wide, and that gives plenty of room to manoeuvre them. I suspect that for many people who don't have the large space I have, three foot modules will be sufficient. I have some of those, and they really are easy to move around. You need some shelving to store them on too, which ideally should be as close as possible to the spur where you are going to attach them. Speaking of which....

post-98-0-24109000-1417784979_thumb.jpg

post-98-0-72721600-1417785021_thumb.jpg

Apologies for the blurring, but when I took these it was very dark, and I didn't succeed in holding the camera steady for 4 seconds. Hopefully you can see enough though. The conventional style of through fiddle yard leaves empty space inside the approach curves at each end, and it is this space which can be utilised very effectively. The first photo shows the cassette spur coming off Road 1 of the fiddle yard which is left empty at all times. All that has to be done is gradually to raise the level by 6mm, and then secure the track to a block as shown. The cassette should then butt up to it. Add strategically placed stop blocks as shown on the left of the photos, to ensure correct alignment. It goes without saying I think that this spur should be at the very front of the layout, so that it doesn't have to be lifted over anything.

 

Now we can choose our cassette, and attach it.

post-98-0-18551100-1417785552_thumb.jpg

This is an unused cassette, and as yet I have not pinned the end sleepers down to the correct alignment. a bit of care is needed at this stage to avoid constant problems, but provided that is done, things will run in and out very smoothly.

post-98-0-53081300-1417785709_thumb.jpg

post-98-0-78840200-1417785741_thumb.jpg

4ft and 3ft cassettes, blurred, but you can see what is involved, and the end fixing foam on the 3 ft one.

post-98-0-38870100-1417785863_thumb.jpg

Finally, a rake emerging from its cassette. Finger power and gravity is all that is needed, no electrickery at all.

 

Just a few more points. Three inches height for the sides is about right in my view. Any less and there is potential for stock to fly over the side if one inadvertently tilts the cassette. Coaches will stay railed up all of the time, unless one is very heavy handed when carrying. Wagons, being lighter, require a bit more care, but I still find that derailments are rare. I have been using this system for over 18 months now, and have not had any accidents at all. As I've posted separately, the time taken to prepare a train is very short.

 

Ideally, the sort of spurs shown in my photos should also be included, particularly if you want to make up formations as I described the other day. They occupy space which would otherwise be very difficult to use. Your free road of course needs to be long enough to hold the longest train you intend to create.

 

That's about it I think. I really can't stress too strongly how this has transformed the operating potential of PN, and how, if properly planned, it can result in big savings of expensive stock. Please do ask questions if you wish, either on here or by PM.

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Some poor sods even choose to model the SR main line to Exeter so that they only have to use discs................... :blind:

post-2326-0-84469800-1417786898.jpg

 

I am tempted to say 'simples', however I am not a furry rat thingy and I'm sure some 'helpful' person will tell me my discs are:

too big;

too small;

too white;

too dirty,

cock eyed;

in the wrong position for the working; (very hard to do as all were in the same position at SJ if they had been put on correctly)

not used on that day in 1961;

don't have the loco working number on them/it;

not worthy as I should be modelling another region.

Whey hey, who cares. 

Nurse, more Brandy.......

P

 

(P.S. I shall have one down working with lamps being used in the 'disc position' and I'm not telling anyone what that is yet.)

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Just about up to date now, I think, but I did say that I would post some more photos of the cassette system, to save having to trawl back many pages to get the details.

attachicon.gifcassette bits.jpg

So, here are the ingredients:-

Take one sheet of 6mm MDF, and cut it, or get it cut, into a number of 2 inch and three inch lengths. Pin the appropriate length of track to the 2 inch wide bit, turn over, and if the securing pins have penetrated through, just file them smooth. Then attach the 3 inch bits to the sides, for which I found PVA quite sufficient. This can be done as a one man job, but only with much cursing and potential apoplexy. it really needs three hands, so I recommend getting a friend to help. You will inevitably have some bits left over when the board has been cut up, and they come in useful to use as strengthening pieces across the top of the cassette. Do work out though where the end of your rake of coaches or wagons will come, as you need to be able to get your fingers in to apply whatever you are going to use to secure the ends. How do I know that?......

 

You now have a light but strong assembly. I started by putting velcro on the ends, so that I could stick another piece of MDF across to prevent stock falling out, but I have found that thick foam sheet, cut to an interference fit, does the job perfectly well, and is less hard on couplings if the stock moves a bit. Length of cassettes? My longest are 4ft long, and I reckon that is the practical maximum. My operating well is 2ft 9 wide, and that gives plenty of room to manoeuvre them. I suspect that for many people who don't have the large space I have, three foot modules will be sufficient. I have some of those, and they really are easy to move around. You need some shelving to store them on too, which ideally should be as close as possible to the spur where you are going to attach them. Speaking of which....

attachicon.gifcassette ramp.jpg

attachicon.giframp side on.jpg

Apologies for the blurring, but when I took these it was very dark, and I didn't succeed in holding the camera steady for 4 seconds. Hopefully you can see enough though. The conventional style of through fiddle yard leaves empty space inside the approach curves at each end, and it is this space which can be utilised very effectively. The first photo shows the cassette spur coming off Road 1 of the fiddle yard which is left empty at all times. All that has to be done is gradually to raise the level by 6mm, and then secure the track to a block as shown. The cassette should then butt up to it. Add strategically placed stop blocks as shown on the left of the photos, to ensure correct alignment. It goes without saying I think that this spur should be at the very front of the layout, so that it doesn't have to be lifted over anything.

 

Now we can choose our cassette, and attach it.

attachicon.gifcassette in position.jpg

This is an unused cassette, and as yet I have not pinned the end sleepers down to the correct alignment. a bit of care is needed at this stage to avoid constant problems, but provided that is done, things will run in and out very smoothly.

attachicon.gif4ft cassette.jpg

attachicon.gif3ft cassette.jpg

4ft and 3ft cassettes, blurred, but you can see what is involved, and the end fixing foam on the 3 ft one.

attachicon.gifcassette emerging.jpg

Finally, a rake emerging from its cassette. Finger power and gravity is all that is needed, no electrickery at all.

 

Just a few more points. Three inches height for the sides is about right in my view. Any less and there is potential for stock to fly over the side if one inadvertently tilts the cassette. Coaches will stay railed up all of the time, unless one is very heavy handed when carrying. Wagons, being lighter, require a bit more care, but I still find that derailments are rare. I have been using this system for over 18 months now, and have not had any accidents at all. As I've posted separately, the time taken to prepare a train is very short.

 

Ideally, the sort of spurs shown in my photos should also be included, particularly if you want to make up formations as I described the other day. They occupy space which would otherwise be very difficult to use. Your free road of course needs to be long enough to hold the longest train you intend to create.

 

That's about it I think. I really can't stress too strongly how this has transformed the operating potential of PN, and how, if properly planned, it can result in big savings of expensive stock. Please do ask questions if you wish, either on here or by PM.

Gilbert, I haven't got the Brandy yet so are my eyes going? Everything is going woozy...........

P

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Ooooohhh......you are awful,..........but I like you                          r coaches/buildings/trackwork/information about LMS coaches/anecdotes about the 50s/60s etc.

Anyhow, what's not to like about one of these?

post-2326-0-47500000-1417795535_thumb.jpg

P

Edited by Mallard60022
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Ooooohhh......you are awful,..........but I like you                          r coaches/buildings/trackwork/information about LMS coaches/anecdotes about the 50s/60s etc.

Anyhow, what's not to like about one of these?

 

P

Colour is sort of OK but there is just not enough copper and brass .....

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