Peterborough North

[Donington Road]

OK so here is a copy of the great pic from Andrew Ingram (Copyright) and thanks for his permissions through Gilbert to use shots of his on this site.

Img_0388.jpg

I think the regular shapes on the left side (camera side) are foot 'rungs' and not holes.

Thoughts anybody?

Having assumed it was concrete I am now not so sure! It sure does look like that 'original' in Donnington Rd's great link shots (how did you find those/)

P

 

Well. I am going to throw a spanner in the works.

I think the pole was the original throughout its life.

Looking at many photos of it from early 1900's through to 1958 the top half, that is the rails and insulators changed appearence quite a bit, some added, some taken off and some lengthened.  Mostly, rails were at 90° to the station entrance but a sometime there were bottom rails parallel to the station entrance.

Looking two thirds up the pole there appears to be a collar, again square.  Another unusual feature is a finial on top.

The pole is also a lighter colour to all others around it.

I think the pole could be Oak, with the top third above the collar being of Oak or a different wood

 

 

[ianwales]

"Several things of interest on here, including a nice bus. Can anyone tell me more about that?"

 

I think I can help you with the bus Gilbert.

 Blowing into the picture I can just make out the first two letters of the front number plate which appear to be GP. Eastern Counties had a large batch of Bristol L5G's with ECW B35R bodies so it could be anything between LL657 GPW657 to LL696 GPW696. It can be narrowed down by finding out which of the batch were allocated to Peterborough or the outstation at March. I'm not sure if anybody does a model of this in Eastern Counties livery but I think Corgi produced one in the same Tilling Red as a Thames Valley and a United Auto representative. I'll do some further digging for you.

 

All the best for 2015

 

Grahame

 

hi

 

Not sure if its the same type, but, Corgi does/did an Eastern Counties liveried L5G with a fleet no LE697 reg no KNG697, the cat no is 97868.

 

Ian

[stewartingram]

Lets clear up a few anomalies about this (model) bus?

 

The Corgi/OOC Bristol L has been modelled in numerous variants of colour, and some detail changes. Principally, these detail changes have involved the route indicators; with the rear one missing/replaced by a curved roof panel, as well as the printing of the "blinds" in the various styles such as 2-track, 5-track types etc. If fitted, easily sorted with transfer blank panels.

The Eastern Counties model version was done in the elaborate coach style (or strictly, dual-purpose) livery, mainly cream with red added, which I feel should really have been maroon.

The "standard" bus livery style for the Tilling group of companies was either red, or green, with cream added around the windows. We can ignore the green livery; to say the livery was standard opens up a can of worms too, but most of the Corgi red versions are about right (not forgetting the destination indicators).

The big problem is that the bus is the wrong type! We think of it as a Bristol L; more correctly we should think of it as an ECW body on a Bristol chassis. The early bodies were built at Irthlingborough, and had square corners to the side windows, in the style of the Corgi model. Most however were built at Lowestoft, with the radiused corners to the windows, which is the style of the Peterborough bus. There were also some changes to the window arrangements as well on "our" bus. Other details can also be noticed as different; such as the style of sidelights, and the model has no Autovac fitted in front of the LH front window.

I've done a fair bit of research into the actual bus in the picture, narrowing it down to which batch it was from, and even individual vehicles. I have an extensive selection of ECOC pics that I have acquired - can't publish for copyright reasons - so I'm pretty certain about this. Also I've been trying to ascertain why the bus is there? No route indication (blank white blind) and away from the bus station over by the river. I'm not aware of a route actually terminating here. There were a couple of routes that terminated in Westfield Road, but I don't think they were sd operated. So I tend to think it was a special working, parked up waiting for a train?

I have on my bench at the moment an L which I'm working on to represent this bus; also a K dd which has been raised to make an LKH, more suitable for the bridge than the Leyland lowbridge that keeps turning up! Watch this space, it is a slow project....

 

Stewart

[Donington Road]

Having assumed it was concrete I am now not so sure! It sure does look like that 'original' in Donnington Rd's great link shots (how did you find those/)

P

 

Just browsing around.

The internet is a bit like a family tree one thing leads onto another.

I got side tracked here http://www.telegraphpoleappreciationsociety.org/

then from there to here http://www.myinsulators.com/ukinsulators/pole.htm

and they say railway modellers are nurds

Edited December 27, 2014 by Donington Road

[Mallard60022]

Mick...second one goes to error. Perhaps a blessing having almost got drawn into the first......

P

[Donington Road]

Mick...second one goes to error. Perhaps a blessing having almost got drawn into the first......

P

 

Thanks. Fixed the above link.

[Mallard60022]

Actually that second one is useful for pics.

Thanks.

P

[Donington Road]

Actually that second one is useful for pics.

Thanks.

P

 Its a shame that whoever has done the website did not put the location of the photos

[HerbertHopkins]

Oh hard luck Rob, though presumably not many customers at that time on Boxing Day morning?  Are you likely to be coming up this way any time soon. I'll get some sprouts in.

 

It was almost deathly quiet and, believe it or not, yesterday was even quieter. I'm off to work soon, so we'll see what today brings.

 

Would love to pop up sometime in the new year, we'll have to arrange something. Mind you, knowing the effect that brussels have, perhaps getting some in might not be a good idea!

 

Take care,

 

Rob

[great northern]

The last page and a half just sums up all the good things about RMWeb for me. No matter what the subject is, at least one person will come up with relevant and very helpful information. Is it "sad" to discuss such things as telegraph poles and buses? No doubt the media would think so, and I imagine that they would have even more fun, if that is possible, with the chap who photographs poles than they do with we "nerds who play with toy trains". They are very good at dismissive and idle ignorance, but not for much else. At least we do have some constructive interests, more than can be said for many people these days.

 

There is a borderline between interest and obsession though, and we should be careful not to cross it. I paid very little attention to those poles until recently, but now the discussion has started, I want to know what that beast was made of, not becuse I am worried about someone pointing the finger and telling me that it is "wrong", but because I have an enquiring mind, and it would bug me now if I didn't get to the solution, which we don't quite seem to have reached....yet. From a practical point of view though, I'm with Phil. We know enough already to be able to produce something which will look right, and that's as far as I feel the need to go.

[bigwordsmith]

You make a good point there Gilbert and it's one that is very cogent particularly when on the point of achieving a lifelong ambition.

 

Prior to coming onto RMWeb I'd always looked forward to the idea of building age model railway for my retirement and having big enough space in which to do it, which I now have. However I'm at layout design #35 and keep on losing my inspiration as I can't make up my mind what exactly it is that I want to do!

 

Do I build a big roundy round with a huge fiddle yard and sit to watch trains go by (which could be quite sad for a man of my years) or do I try to recreate a lost scene from the past with as much accuracy as possible, which wold be beautiful and prompt much comment from the community? Do I abandon the sweat, anger, bloody thumbs and money that has been sunk into an engine shed, just now that I've got the space to build something that would justify it? OR do I throw the whole lot out and take up another hobby as I'll never get to the standards set by so many of the folks here?

 

Forget counting rivets, it's almost as if I can't decide whether I even want rivets in the first place!

 

And no that's not a clue to trigger a discussion about welding vs rivet tender construction.

[trw1089]

Hi Gilbert, what a great post!

 

I agree with the issue of crossing the line, but I think when you start down the road of modelling an actual location, the desire to "know" all that there is about it means that it is like a giant puzzle to which you find pieces occasionally that fit, and others that don't, send you off on a tangent or otherwise just bug you until you know how they all come together. I suppose it becomes a matter of how many pieces do you need to be able to know to clearly see the whole for yourself. The trouble is, it's the research that finds problem pieces like the pole and the bus, and once you find them, you can choose to ignore them, but I think th they go in the too hard basket until chance finds a time or another piece that helps sort them, and it's through places like this and the knowledgeable people like yourself that we eventually work out that puzzle.

 

Still though, when you get that mince pie and go back to 1958, can I send you a list of questions to pass on to the Station Master at Westgate, I want to ask him a thing or two...

 

Cheers

Tony

[great northern]

Amazing happenings at PN the last couple of days.   Boxing day evening I managed to pull myself away from half watching stuff that didn't really interest me, and went and ran trains instead. This so inspired me that yesterday morning, I ran some more. As a result, the last sixty moves in the sequence were completed in short order, things got a proper airing, and I started to remember how to operate the thing correctly. So, that was a sixth of the sequence, in less than  a day, and if I keep something like that up, all the problems caused by locos and stock sitting for weeks without use will be greatly reduced.

 

What's more, I even managed to take some photos, though I didn't allow myself to become sidetracked and head straight down to process and post them. Will all this continue? Possibly. Actually, I had resolved not to take photos at all, but when the Colchester- Edinburgh through train came up, and I saw what was rostered to bring it in, I was reminded of Coachmann's comments a little while back, with which I entirely agree. 1958 is just a little late for some of the veterans to appear, but this one still had another five months to go before being cut up.

This would be about 9.15pm in real life, so the light would have been strongly from the West, but as usual what I had to contend with was a bit too strong, so apologies for the lack of quality. An interesting train, this one, with just a core of passenger stock, topped and tailed by quite a lot of BG's. I've been reallocating passenger coaches, and this seemed to be the best place to put some Kirk Gresleys, as they then don't get shown up by better stock. The two crimson and cream ones were ones I built many years back, but Brian Badger did the painting. I gave them to Dave Shakespeare some time ago, in return for a lot of weathering he did for me, and it was a easy decision to bring them back here when disposing of his stock.

Finally, some filth, for those who like that sort of thing. The B12 was replaced by what a correspondent to the Railway Observer referred to as "one of the dregs of Gateshead."  Very apposite for this one, though it's state, coupled with the strong light, proved to be too much either for the camera or for me, I'm not sure which.

[Andrew P]

Hi Gilbert, Although I'm not a great poster on here, this thread is getting more fascinating by the day, so much info coming in from many sources, I've had the same sort of input on my Bitton thread and as you said, with so many people on R M Web more than happy to find information and its fascinating. 

 

Like you I want information about the Model I'm building, but again like you with the telegraph poles, your not going to make them of the correct wood, but its nice to know as its a conversation piece.

 

Please keep the excellent pics coming as well, really inspirational.

 

Happy New Year.

Edited December 28, 2014 by Andrew P

[New Haven Neil]

I agree, Andy.  It is the rich resource of RMW that keeps me reading threads when I should be modelling though!  Having just pulled a wire off a DCC decoder, maybe I should stick to reading threads.....

 

Gilbert, that B12 is almost as interesting as the N5!  Love the first shot in particular.

[jwealleans]

B12 and C12. How could it get better? (unless you get the J6 in shot as well).

[great northern]

You make a good point there Gilbert and it's one that is very cogent particularly when on the point of achieving a lifelong ambition.

 

Prior to coming onto RMWeb I'd always looked forward to the idea of building age model railway for my retirement and having big enough space in which to do it, which I now have. However I'm at layout design #35 and keep on losing my inspiration as I can't make up my mind what exactly it is that I want to do!

 

Do I build a big roundy round with a huge fiddle yard and sit to watch trains go by (which could be quite sad for a man of my years) or do I try to recreate a lost scene from the past with as much accuracy as possible, which wold be beautiful and prompt much comment from the community? Do I abandon the sweat, anger, bloody thumbs and money that has been sunk into an engine shed, just now that I've got the space to build something that would justify it? OR do I throw the whole lot out and take up another hobby as I'll never get to the standards set by so many of the folks here?

 

Forget counting rivets, it's almost as if I can't decide whether I even want rivets in the first place!

 

And no that's not a clue to trigger a discussion about welding vs rivet tender construction.

First and most important thing Peter is that you do what you want, not what other people might want, and that you do it to a standard which you can achieve. If we all decided that we must achieve the superb results that the very few manage, or do nothing, an awful lot of nothing would get done. You have lots of time to reflect at the moment, which I'm afraid is a double edged sword. Time to plan is good, but not being able to do anything much to put plans into operation is frustrating. Thus, plans are made, thought about and discarded, possibly because you aren't able to do anything but plan, so if you come up with the right one, how are you then going to pass the time till you are able to start building?

 

I've said often enough that PN is the first layout I've had that ticked all the boxes after forty years of trying, and I'm convinced that the reason lies in the way I planned it. It can be very tiresome when people go on and on about doing things their way, but it is the way that I achieved what you are looking to achieve, so may I suggest that you go back to the very first page of this thread, and make yourself a list, as I did. Put in "must have" as the first item, and then think very carefully as to what goes in under that category. You will find I think that there are a lot of things you would like to have, but very few that you can't do without. I suspect Waverley shed will fall into that category. I can say with certainty that if you build a layout which doesn't include even one of your "must haves", it will not be a success.

 

Having compiled that list, which I hope will resolve a lot of the whirling thoughts which are so frustrating you at present, start planning again, but I would also suggest that you then plan for something which is extendable, and, if it turns out to be necessary, expendable. Our first efforts don't always work out as well as hoped, so I reckon it is sensible to factor that in.

 

In planning PN, I came up against the unavoidable fact that I couldn't do it all myself, and that the buildings would have to be commissioned if it were to be done at all.No botched effort that I might have tried, nor any use of ready to plant stuff would have worked. I don't know if you could, or would, consider having some essentials made for you. I am at long last content with what I've done, if that helps. I have provided work for some very talented people, and in return I have received what I needed to have the layout I dreamed of. So, if your list contains what I call "inconvenient truths", things that are necessary to bring that plan to fruition, but which you know you aren't capable of doing yourself, bin that plan immediately if you don't want to go down the commissioning path. Interestingly though, having seen what has been achieved on Grantham using Peco code 100, I'm not so sure now that having to commission the trackwork  for PN would have been an obstacle that couldn't be overcome. I'm very glad that I did commission it, but I reckon I could have got round it, undoubtedly to the detriment of the whole thing, but the test would have been "Can I live with it". That's what matters.

 

I hope this helps a bit Peter, and please do come back to me either here or by PM if you wish. I'll finish with the mantra I used in my recent article for BRM, as I feel it is the most important thing of all. Whatever you do, do something.

[bigwordsmith]

Gilbert, as ever your counsel is spot on!

 

I think the challenge is when the wish list changes. For example. I first wanted a big railway with branchlike, return loop, sidings, shunting, loco shed, terminus and a goodly scenic run. All of that comes to no problem, given the space available, and the fact that I can lay a reasonably good looking piece of track, ballast it and create the right atmosphere.

 

But then comes practicality -  I wanted something I could operate myself, so a big railway starts to fall off the scale. I also wanted to savour the delights of the Waverley Route's wold scenery, but that calls for a large chunk of not a lot happening. So the cunning plan came up to put in a Very Large Fiddle Yard, underneath the scenic run, which as you , and many others, pointed out was a shortcut to eternal frustration, especially as one's contortionistic abilities become reduced with maturity!

 

So we come to an enormous branch line option - cf Pendine. However, I also possess enough stock to keep both you and Tony Wright comfortably supplied, and having built it up over 40+ years would like to have a place for it to play.

 

Then of course comes the other challenge - what looks good on a 30"monitor takes on a whole different perspective when looked at in the room.

 

As I'm now able to get up and downstairs OK, and by beloved has taken the chance to go off and do some shopping with our daughter, and my mobility is still knotty up to any carpentry, I suspect that much of today will be passed in comfortable contemplation up in the loft itself, coffee in hand and thoughts roaming free!

 

On the other hand I might just decide to deal with all this filing I've been ignoring for months!

[coachmann]

The late David Jenkinson spent a great deal of his life trying to obtain his vision of a model railway layout in the Fells. Gilbert spent forty years 'getting there' and I have spent a mere seven at a rate of 1½ attempts per annum! I suppose it depends on what you are prepared to live with, how much time you have at your disposal, and a great dollop of luck. People say planning is the answer. All I can say to that is I do not have the experience to plan for the unforeseen! One thing I do know however: The layout in ones mind will always be perfect, and so long as it stays there you will always be spending on more locos and stock. 

 

As to Gilberts Peterborough, track is the bedrock of all layouts and while Peco looks okay on Diesel-era layouts because mainlines are mostly flat-bottom track, I have no doubt his steam-era 1958 layout would not be nearly so attractive without it's bullhead track. 

Edited December 29, 2014 by coachmann

[dashnieuil]

Hello Gilbert,

My first post on here but I have been following Peterborough North for some time now with immense interest. I don't know how you have the patience to photo shop those lattice posts.

Thank you for the wise words in post No.6867. I find myself in a similar position to Peter - space for the layout, plans made and scrapped, now on plan 5 or 6. My last layout was dismantled on a house move when daughter No.1 was 18 months old. She is now 43. Stock and track was all boxed up and is now ready to use with the various purchases made over the years waiting for this time to arrive.   I have made a start - baseboards built and ready to go but still need to decide what I really want. Time to bite the bullet and do something.

All the best for the New Year,

Dan Horan,

Charente, France

[bigwordsmith]

Larry, I think I probably fall into the same category as you - until you model to the site available you really don't know what's going to work, and I've watched some amazing modelling taking shape in your shed only to be amazed at how easily you switched courses!

 

Now that I have a bog room and an existing model which doesn't seem to fit, I'm beginning to understand why you changed your mind as well!

 

I've bought a load of Peco code 75 - I agree it's not as good as a handmade in terms of reality, but as I'm probably going to end up laying something north of 200 yards of the stuff and 100 points, I think that expediency calls for using an off the shelf product!

@Dan - Thanks for your support - it's bit like meeting your idol only to discover that she's just flesh and blood after all!

[great northern]

B12 and C12. How could it get better? (unless you get the J6 in shot as well).

Jonathan, your wish is my command. (Well, it is pantomime season.)

 

A line of locomotives, their day's work done, stands waiting the road to New England shed.

Please don't zoom in on these too much. The ability of Paint.Net to erase things that should not have been erased was on top form this morning. This next one got so annoying I gave up on it altogether.

and this last one has a very obvious flaw, but I wasn't going back about 50 frames to find out when it happened, and put it right.

[60027Merlin]

Peter,

 

The best layouts in the country have never been built - they are all in the mind.

 

Whatever you decide make sure it is;

 

- practical and manageable for you; 

 

- that it will be completed in a realistic period of time (all dependent on an individual's age of course);

 

- that it is interesting to hold your attention when running it;

 

- that you will enjoy it;

 

No doubt there are many other considerations, however, these are some to be going on with and get cracking as time does not stand still.

 

Good Luck!

 

Eric

Edited December 29, 2014 by 60027Merlin

[bigwordsmith]

Thanks Eric

 

Just had a contemplative hour with my foot up ( as prescribed by the pretty nurse I was resting and elevating it) looking at the loft and thinking 'be practical' 

 

Rather than take over Gilbert's thread (again!) I'll post the results over on the Waverley forum.

 

ATB

 

Peter

[coachmann]

Now that I have a bog room and an existing model which doesn't seem to fit, I'm beginning to understand why you changed your mind as well!

If you only have a bog room I can see why you are considering a roundy..... 

 

A couple of P Class locos, Brownies doing bob-a-job on the platform, chamber music, shouldn't be too much of a drain on resources if you have already put things aside in the bottom drawer, unless of course you are feeling flush after Xmas....

Edited December 29, 2014 by coachmann