RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 Gilbert, Can I ask why you want a diagram 144 rather than a 10C? Is it to avoid fitting the turnbuckle trussing (which would be reasonable and probably a more noticeable difference than the doors) or is it because the d10C's were withdrawn by 1958? I hope the former as I've just completed by MJT on Hornby donor as a 10C and I'm majoring on late 1950s! Andy 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 There seems to be a lot of discussion about RKF diagrams when we all know they make very good mess and riding vans for the breakdown train at any decent ER diesel depot. 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 Gilbert, Can I ask why you want a diagram 144 rather than a 10C? Is it to avoid fitting the turnbuckle trussing (which would be reasonable and probably a more noticeable difference than the doors) or is it because the d10C's were withdrawn by 1958? I hope the former as I've just completed by MJT on Hornby donor as a 10C and I'm majoring on late 1950s! Andyimage.jpeg It is really to have something different Andy. I have 10cs already, and I suspect not many were left in top line service by 1958, even though they weren't yet withdrawn.They would be dragged out of sidings for summer extras I suspect. I still have more research and thinking to do before I make up my mind though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted May 14, 2016 Thoughts about RC diagrams will have to wait until I can sit down and put my feet up this evening. More images for now. PN seems to have more photographers than passengers this evening, as yet another has found a perch to get this. I'm losing count here, but I think that was the third one, and there is yet another at the South end to capture the B1 yet again as it emerges from under the roof. You know how songs can get stuck in your ear and play themselves endlessly? I've got that with a Who track at the moment. Another little memory test. " I don't care about pollution, I'm an air conditioned gypsy". Name of track, and/or LP? 23 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 Gilbert, Can I ask why you want a diagram 144 rather than a 10C? Is it to avoid fitting the turnbuckle trussing (which would be reasonable and probably a more noticeable difference than the doors) or is it because the d10C's were withdrawn by 1958? I hope the former as I've just completed by MJT on Hornby donor as a 10C and I'm majoring on late 1950s! Andyimage.jpeg That's a very tasty D10c old bean. May I presume upon you to take a pic of the roof so that I might see wot you dun to get it looking so tidy? AFAICS the roof arrangements were more or less the same on the D144s. Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 (edited) Gilbert, I must apologise for starting all this nonsense. As for the decision, we could compromise. Suggestion 1. You decide that the existing coach looks OK as a D144 when you receive it and we forget the last few days. Suggestion 2. We could get some D144 sides from Mr Bedford if he has them. I can salvage the D10c sides and we sell them to a friendly person. The existing UF can then be used with confidence with a newly converted body (see 3.). Suggestion 3. We find another suitable donor coach and we use BB sides for a D144 conversion! Suggestion 4. I change the Trussing on the existing coach, we find a buyer and finish it to their requirements as long as long as it is in maroon or they say they will paint it. Suggestion 5. I finish this coach as a D10c and you keep it and we do Suggestion 3 as well. That is it. I'm not going to say anything else (about the coach) as I have caused such a fuss. Youth, in golf, includes the under 65s presumably? His Ar$eness of 36E Edited May 14, 2016 by Mallard60022 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 Gilbert, I must apologise for starting all this nonsense. As for the decision, we could compromise. Suggestion 1. You decide that the existing coach looks OK as a D144 when you receive it and we forget the last few days. Suggestion 2. We could get some D144 sides from Mr Bedford if he has them. I can salvage the D10c sides and we sell them to a friendly person. The existing UF can then be used with confidence with a newly converted body (see 3.). Suggestion 3. We find another suitable donor coach and we use BB sides for a D144 conversion! Suggestion 4. I change the Trussing on the existing coach, we find a buyer and finish it to their requirements as long as long as it is in maroon or they say they will paint it. Suggestion 5. I finish this coach as a D10c and you keep it and we do Suggestion 3 as well. That is it. I'm not going to say anything else (about the coach) as I have caused such a fuss. Youth, in golf, includes the under 65s presumably? His Ar$eness of 36E No apologies are needed Phil, I've actually enjoyed all of this, and learnt from it too. I have to go out now, but just remembered I could take a couple of photos which might resolve the situation. I'll post them this evening. Youth in golf, in this case anyway, meant people in their 30s built like brick whatsisnames. I hit a great drive down our 13 th hole, which was for the longest drive prize. The marker was at least 50 yards further on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonny777 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Thoughts about RC diagrams will have to wait until I can sit down and put my feet up this evening. More images for now. PN seems to have more photographers than passengers this evening, as yet another has found a perch to get this. fish from behind.jpg I'm losing count here, but I think that was the third one, and there is yet another at the South end to capture the B1 yet again as it emerges from under the roof. fish south end 1.jpg You know how songs can get stuck in your ear and play themselves endlessly? I've got that with a Who track at the moment. Another little memory test. " I don't care about pollution, I'm an air conditioned gypsy". Name of track, and/or LP? I think it must be on Who's Next, because that is one of the few LPs by that band I have and the line rings a bell somewhere. Can't say I have listened to it in 40 years, and so I might be wrong. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 I think it must be on Who's Next, because that is one of the few LPs by that band I have and the line rings a bell somewhere. Can't say I have listened to it in 40 years, and so I might be wrong. Bang on. Going Mobile. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Thoughts about RC diagrams will have to wait until I can sit down and put my feet up this evening. More images for now. PN seems to have more photographers than passengers this evening, as yet another has found a perch to get this. fish from behind.jpg I'm losing count here, but I think that was the third one, and there is yet another at the South end to capture the B1 yet again as it emerges from under the roof. fish south end 1.jpg You know how songs can get stuck in your ear and play themselves endlessly? I've got that with a Who track at the moment. Another little memory test. " I don't care about pollution, I'm an air conditioned gypsy". Name of track, and/or LP? It could be a lot worse. The Germans call this a 'Earworm', I believe. Drove the last hundred kms into Calais with 'Oo's Next' blaring out at full volume very late on Thursday night. I believe the singer chappy is involved in an N-gauge model of part of the same railway as you are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 The more I look into this Restaurant Car conundrum, the more confusing it gets. Dia 10c were built in 1928/9, and I think we have now decided they had flush sides. Dia 11 though, first built in 1929 clearly has recessed doors. I shall try a different tack. Here are pictures of two of my catering vehicles. RC to Dia10c by Larry Goddard. and Restaurant Pantry Second to Dia 151, by a certain duck. I don't have two of the same colour, which would have been better, but I invite comments on any perceived differences, other than to the underframes. 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Market65 Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 14, 2016 Well apart from two completely different diagrams, both models are built and finished to a very high standard indeed. It is impossible to decide which is better so I won't. Is it possible to see another of your Gresley catering vehicles which has a kitchen? That would, I think, be a better choice. With warmest regards, Rob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 Only because I have read the previous page of posts I believe that the diagram 10c has flush doors (and a turnbuckle underframe) and that the diagram 151 has recessed doors and a trussed underframe (please tell me if I am wrong!). If this is the case I would go with the duck's suggestion 2. Please note that, even though I can find the minutest of detail difference in B.R. Mk 2 stock, if it hadn't been for the mention of the recessed doors in the thread I would not have known about them and therefore not looked for them. All the above is, of course, complete rubbish if the diagram 151 has not got recessed doors. The old adage is that it is your layout and you can do as you wish. May I congratulate you on wanting to not only 1) have a variation in coach diagrams shown on the layout but 2) then wanting each of these to be as accurate as possible to accentuate the differences. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 The more I look into this Restaurant Car conundrum, the more confusing it gets. Dia 10c were built in 1928/9, and I think we have now decided they had flush sides. Dia 11 though, first built in 1929 clearly has recessed doors. I shall try a different tack. Here are pictures of two of my catering vehicles. 10.jpg RC to Dia10c by Larry Goddard. 151.jpg and Restaurant Pantry Second to Dia 151, by a certain duck. I don't have two of the same colour, which would have been better, but I invite comments on any perceived differences, other than to the underframes. To be honest I just appreciate seeing these coaches. I do wish Hornby had produced an RF instead of the Buffet! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 Well apart from two completely different diagrams, both models are built and finished to a very high standard indeed. It is impossible to decide which is better so I won't. Is it possible to see another of your Gresley catering vehicles which has a kitchen? That would, I think, be a better choice. With warmest regards, Rob. I wish I could Rob, but apart from twins and triplets the only other Gresley RCs I have are from Kirk kits and over 25 years old, so they wouldn't help illustrate the point I wanted to make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 I'm unsure how I am still conscious at this time of night but, having seen the recessed doors D155) I believe Suggestion 1 may well be the verdict. Good night all.p Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 Only because I have read the previous page of posts I believe that the diagram 10c has flush doors (and a turnbuckle underframe) and that the diagram 151 has recessed doors and a trussed underframe (please tell me if I am wrong!). If this is the case I would go with the duck's suggestion 2. Please note that, even though I can find the minutest of detail difference in B.R. Mk 2 stock, if it hadn't been for the mention of the recessed doors in the thread I would not have known about them and therefore not looked for them. All the above is, of course, complete rubbish if the diagram 151 has not got recessed doors. The old adage is that it is your layout and you can do as you wish. May I congratulate you on wanting to not only 1) have a variation in coach diagrams shown on the layout but 2) then wanting each of these to be as accurate as possible to accentuate the differences. You are absolutely right in all respects, and the Dia 151 does have recessed doors. How noticeable is it though? Is it a difference which sorts of shouts out at you when you compare the two photographs? I have to say that it really doesn't to me. I do appreciate the comments in your final paragraph, and I do indeed want to have at least some of the variations. I also like things to be accurate, up to a point. That really was the reason for my original post I suppose. Where should one draw the line? There's no point in my insisting on things being 100% accurate - quite a bit of my stock would have to go if I did - so there is and always will be compromise. The only question is one of degree. My two Kirk RFs have angle iron underframes, and some bits are recessed. Unfortunately it is the windows, not the doors! They will continue to run for purely pragmatic reasons. I'm sorely tempted just to number this new RC as a Dia 144, and overlook that 1mm recess. It did occur to me though that one might possibly be able to run a fine black line round the inner surfaces of the doors. Would that give sufficient illusion of relief? I think I hear a gibbering duck. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 To be honest I just appreciate seeing these coaches. I do wish Hornby had produced an RF instead of the Buffet! So do I David, then none of this would have been necessary. Why i wonder is there such a resistance to producing any kind of catering stock RTR, not just LNER? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 14, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 I have one more photoshopped picture, then I'm off to bed. It just so happens that there was this bloke strolling across Crescent Bridge, and he had his camera round his neck, so when he heard the sound of an approaching train....... And now it is goodnight from me, but first another Who lyric poser. This one may be a bit more difficult. " A snake the size of a sewer pipe living in his rib cage". Name of song please? 12 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 According to the diagram - D.151 has recessed doors at the saloon end but the pantry end doors are flush. Overall dimensions are the same as D.144 - 9' 2 1/4" over body, 9' 3" over mouldings and Extreme width 9' 4". To further complicate things 11 D144 RF were modernised by BR from 1957-60. This mainly affected the interior, but roof and underframe detail would be different, and as shown in Harris E9075E at least - has 2 reduced depth pantry windows. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leander Posted May 14, 2016 Share Posted May 14, 2016 And now it is goodnight from me, but first another Who lyric poser. This one may be a bit more difficult. " A snake the size of a sewer pipe living in his rib cage". Name of song please? 'Athena', from the 1982 album 'It's hard'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium thegreenhowards Posted May 14, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 14, 2016 That's a very tasty D10c old bean. May I presume upon you to take a pic of the roof so that I might see wot you dun to get it looking so tidy? AFAICS the roof arrangements were more or less the same on the D144s. Phil Will do Phil, I've been at Expo EM today buying rather too many Bill Bedford sides, and I've got family round tomorrow, so will probably be tomorrow evening before I can get some decent photos. I'll also try and dig out the links on LNER Forum which I used to put the roof detail together - there was some excellent stuff from Mike Trice. Cheers Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 15, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 15, 2016 'Athena', from the 1982 album 'It's hard'. Impressive. Another Who fanatic? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 15, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 15, 2016 We shall now return to the chap up his pole somewhere on the Midland side, who finds that he has a constant stream of southbound traffic to record. First up is a Fridays only service from Bradford to KX, Happy Knight in charge. There is an old Bachmann Thompson CK in the formation, one of Mr Shakespeare's, which will continue to be used at least until the new ones arrive. Other than that we have mainly Gresley all door SKs, with three Mk1s bringing up the rear. And in a spirit of welcome co-operation, our man on the platform supplies a locomotive portrait too. I shall now sit down with a cup of tea, do further research on the vagaries of Gresley coaches, and try to think up ever more obscure Who lyrics. 13 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted May 15, 2016 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 15, 2016 Oh treacherous Harris, thou art undone. Not reliable I'm afraid, based on conflicting evidence in one of his own books. which has a picture of a Dia 11 RC, captioned as built in 1929. This really interested me, as it clearly has recessed doors, and led me to wonder whether that might also apply to 10Cs built in 1929, whilst those built in 1928 would not, as they were completed before the edict of late 1928 was applied. But then I went to the appendix, and looked for the Dia11 illustrated there, to find that it is stated to have been built in 1934! By that time I'm sure it would be to 9ft 3 extreme width.Does this leave me any futher forward? Not really, but it does show that an awful lot has been lost in the mists of time, and even experts can make mistakes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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