Peterborough North

[The Blue Streak]

Just to add to what has been written previously, the difference between any official planning / documentation and whatever ad hoc arrangement that gets put in place on day to day basis to "keep the show on the road" can be quite remarkable even in today's era of automation, computers and centralised decision making. 

 

I can only imagine that it may have been even more so in the days when decisions were made "on the fly" at a regional or local level. As has already been noted, unless one could locate photos and daily notices from a specific day in history, it would be nigh impossible to be completely accurate in every sense.

 

I believe that the best We can do, is to achieve a sense or a flavour of what occurred. In My mind PN shows Me a very good representation of a place and a period in time that I never saw. Although, I must say that if I see a prototype picture of PN in the 50's, I can now instantly identify it, from having read this topic and looking at Gilbert's pictures. Which I think is a good indication of how wonderful this train set is  .

 

Edit - I call it a trainset with great affection so please forgive Me if it sounds a little "off".

PS. Just posted this in time to see My favourite A4 - Thanks Gilbert.

Edited November 26, 2017 by The Blue Streak

[great northern]

Here is another look at that B1, in colour this time.

Speaking of colour, yellow/orange is very nearly completely out of fashion.

[great northern]

It is necessary to keep following the Elizabethan on its way through the station.

The spotters look as though they are totally unmoved, which is unsurprising, as they can't.

[great northern]

I took a few shots of the Elizabethan from the new bridge, using the dreaded zoom function. That, and very poor light, caused a soft and out of focus background which was beyond my capabilities when it came to photoshopping, so these had to be rescued by some very heavy cropping.

[trw1089]

I found this image on the Sir Nigel Gresley Facebook page today and the page owner has given permission to repost it.

 

 

It is credited as being from the Dennis Butler collection. An amazing image and shows the station from a more model railway perspective. The time period is suggested as 59/60.

 

I think it shows how well the model PN replicates the real thing. The people in the coaches, including the lady who appears to be getting ready to get off the Class 40 train, plus the loco crew on the other platform, the loco tender at the end of the train departing closest to shot, all just fascinating stuff.

 

Cheers

Tony

[Oldddudders]

I found this image on the Sir Nigel Gresley Facebook page today and the page owner has given permission to repost it.

 

 

It is credited as being from the Dennis Butler collection. An amazing image and shows the station from a more model railway perspective. The time period is suggested as 59/60.

 

I think it shows how well the model PN replicates the real thing. The people in the coaches, including the lady who appears to be getting ready to get off the Class 40 train, plus the loco crew on the other platform, the loco tender at the end of the train departing closest to shot, all just fascinating stuff.

 

Cheers

Tony

 

What a smashing picture! Familiarity with PN unnecessary, because this is packed with details - and such an unusual perspective. I note the Gresleys have SC prefixes. 

[bigwordsmith]

I found this image on the Sir Nigel Gresley Facebook page today and the page owner has given permission to repost it.

 

 

It is credited as being from the Dennis Butler collection. An amazing image and shows the station from a more model railway perspective. The time period is suggested as 59/60.

 

I think it shows how well the model PN replicates the real thing. The people in the coaches, including the lady who appears to be getting ready to get off the Class 40 train, plus the loco crew on the other platform, the loco tender at the end of the train departing closest to shot, all just fascinating stuff.

 

Cheers

Tony

 

 

Fascinating 

 

The thing that intrigues me the most about it is that in an era when received wisdom is that the pre-nationalisation stock was all but non-existent, the only Mk1 vehicle in the pic is a Parcels van!

 

I also noticed that the train nearest to the photographer is made up of 'SC'  numbered stock, suggesting an ECML express, (could it even have detoured around the Waverley Route perchance?) suggesting that even this long post the introduction of Mk1 stock the old Gresleys and Thomsons were still doing sterling front line service.

 

I was even more surprised to see one in Blood & Custard!

 

Thanks for sharing - makes me question my decision to buy so many boring maroon Mk1s!

[The Blue Streak]

What a fabulous find, Tony.

 

That describes exactly the point I tried to make earlier, I would have recognised the location of that picture instantly, just from reading this topic.

 

The hotel, the engine shed, North Box and the crumbling wall on the right and then of course Phil's poles

 

It just shows how much Gilbert and his band of Merry Men have got it right.

[great northern]

Yes, that is indeed a great picture, and one I have often referred to.Photograph from the top of Spital Bridge cenotaph coaling tower, and taken by Vic Fincham. The original caption says 1958, but I'm sure that is wrong, given the state of the double kylchap A3 in the bay. I doubt that a loco which can't have been long out of paint shop has so quickly deteriorated. Having said that, some of the Gateshead A3s were among the earliest to ge the double chimneys, so I suppose it is possible. That looks like the condition Grantham engines suddenly got into in 1959, but then I wouldn't expect to see a Grantham engine on a diagram that involved taking over a train at PN.

 

There was still plenty of Gresley and Thompson stock around, even in '59 and later, though more on the relief and Saturdays only trains by then. I reckon plenty of Gresleys met their end while  still in crimson and cream livery too. That train is departing from Platform 6, so it is just possible that it might be the 1130 Edinburgh, and that could account for stock with SC prefixes. Two Dia 155 seconds are in view, and the 1130 was largely made up of those. The brake behind D201 though is probably a substitute for a MK1. The presence of such an early D200 again doesn't rule out 1958.

 

Having looked at this picture many times, only now have I notoced that the bracket signal on the Down platform is now lower quadrant. I'd love to know when that change actually occurred.

 

Finally, we have the ever present line of wagons at the very front of the picture, which are on the two very long sidings that separate the Down slow from the Midland running lines. That is what I would like to put in on a narrow baseboard extension to give me something to block the void which can presently occur when taking photos looking in that direction.

 

It is a wonderful picture, but I have to remember that a lot of what can be seen in the background would not have been visible except from such an elevated position. It does show though how impossible it would be to model the whole of PN with absolute fidelity.

[Rail-Online]

Just for clarity, the parcels van in the photo is an LMS standard BG - not a BR Mk1, therefore it is 100% pre-nationalisation coaching stock on view.  No-one has yet commented on the position of the lining on the Sc allocated Gresleys! 

 

Cheers Tony

[Herbert Nigel]

May one enquire of those who know the working practices at Peterborough at this time what that tender (bunker?) is doing less than a carriage length from the rear of the train departing platform 6? Has it "banked" the train away on its north bound journey or is this permissive platform working taken to extremes?

[bigwordsmith]

I can't help thinking that the passengers in those old Gresleys look mighty comfortable, especially compared to the toast racks today's operators provide!

[Dave John]

It is indeed a very atmospheric Photo. 

 

I note that the steel bodied mineral wagon in the foreground has the axlebox cover hanging loose. I will now just say its based on a prototype pic if any axleboxes fall off my stock...... 

[The Stationmaster]

May one enquire of those who know the working practices at Peterborough at this time what that tender (bunker?) is doing less than a carriage length from the rear of the train departing platform 6? Has it "banked" the train away on its north bound journey or is this permissive platform working taken to extremes?

 

As there is an offside van door open at the rear of the train at Platform 6 I do wonder whether or not we are looking at the orderly departure of a train or at something else?   However IF it is a departing train and Permissive Working was permitted on that line I see nothing unusual about an engine, or second train, being that close behind a departing train but if it is, as the visible lamp could suggest, a freight train then there is something not at all right going on.

[jwealleans]

That is a wonderful image.  Are we sure it's as late as 1958/9?  I only ask because there are a lot of wooden minerals in evidence and I thought they were in serious decline that late in the decade.  Of the two 16 tonners visible, the one right at the back looks well used, but the one next to the BG is very clean/new. 

 

Is the open bottom left with the differing plank widths ex-Southern?  The cut down mineral next to it is something you don't see modelled often enough (and is that another just left of top centre against the brick building?)  The staining or patch painting on the planks would look terrible on a model unless really well done and look at the state of the steel high next to it - someone's held the soldering iron too close to that. 

 

More than ten years after nationalisation and there's hardly any BR freight stock visible either.

[great northern]

That is a wonderful image.  Are we sure it's as late as 1958/9?  I only ask because there are a lot of wooden minerals in evidence and I thought they were in serious decline that late in the decade.  Of the two 16 tonners visible, the one right at the back looks well used, but the one next to the BG is very clean/new. 

 

Is the open bottom left with the differing plank widths ex-Southern?  The cut down mineral next to it is something you don't see modelled often enough (and is that another just left of top centre against the brick building?)  The staining or patch painting on the planks would look terrible on a model unless really well done and look at the state of the steel high next to it - someone's held the soldering iron too close to that. 

 

More than ten years after nationalisation and there's hardly any BR freight stock visible either.

It can't be earlier than June 1958, Jonathan, as that is when the first double chimney A3 conversion came off Plant. D201 only arrived a month or so before that too. That A3 is so grimy that even if it was one of the first rebuilds a couple of months at least must have passed for it to get into that state. I'd say the autumn of 58 at the earliest, and the summer of 59 more probable. Most of Vic Fincham's published photos were taken in one or other of those years.

[great northern]

As there is an offside van door open at the rear of the train at Platform 6 I do wonder whether or not we are looking at the orderly departure of a train or at something else?   However IF it is a departing train and Permissive Working was permitted on that line I see nothing unusual about an engine, or second train, being that close behind a departing train but if it is, as the visible lamp could suggest, a freight train then there is something not at all right going on.

 I have other copies of this photo, and hoped I might find one which is not so closely cropped, but no luck I'm afraid. Geoffrey Freeman Allen said in a Trains Illustrated article in 1958 that when he visited PN he found quite a number of "unofficial" working practices which caused him to raise his eyebrows somewhat, but that the whole thing was such a mess that it probably could not have worked at all if everything was done by the book. He also If I remember correctly said that the 20mph speed limit made these practices less potentially dangerous that if they occurred where trains were passing through at speed.

 

None of that helps much with this photo though. I suppose the train might have come up from East, and was now being reversed to travel south, but in that case I can't see why a loco should be parked in the position where that tender shows it to be. Logically, it would be at the other end of the platform. Nor do I think that loco has brought the stock up from the carriage sidings, again because of its position. It could I suppose be a local practice whereby a loco heading for New England light has been allowed to come up behind, but then the lamps look to be wrong. A northbound departure fits, but doesn't account for that open door. It remains a mystery.

 

I was thinking the same myself.  If the train is actually leaving the platform I would expect the Guard to be looking out the platform side so as to ensure a safe departure.  The open door on the west side suggests that someone has climbed down or is about to climb aboard.  Also, there seem to be a number of passengers hanging out of the windows on the west side of the train.  Perhaps they are just passing the time of day.....     .....or are they watching something that we cannot see?    

[great northern]

No unnatural practices going on at my PN though. The road is clear for the Elizabethan, as it should be, and 60012 continues to roll through at 20mph.

This was the last one taken from the bridge, and differs sufficiently from the others to be worth showing, I think.

and this would be what you'd see if standing near Crescent Junction box, though I think you'd need a telephoto lens to get it.

[St Enodoc]

Just for clarity, the parcels van in the photo is an LMS standard BG - not a BR Mk1, therefore it is 100% pre-nationalisation coaching stock on view.  No-one has yet commented on the position of the lining on the Sc allocated Gresleys! 

 

Cheers Tony

 

I believe the lining on the ScR coaching stock was standard practice at Cowlairs in an attempt to ensure the lining was at the same height as that of BR standard coaching stock.  There may be no BR Mk 1 stock in the photograph but its existence has nonetheless had an effect on the image.

I think that Tony (Rail-Online)'s comment was a reference to a recent discussion on Tony Wright's thread concerning the position of lining.

[great northern]

And so to the final pictures of the Elizabethan.

A close up of a shiny scottish engine is obligatory.

and about to pass under the lovely new bridge.

[great northern]

I regret that I have to report the passing away of my washing machine. It was only 21 years old. Its replacement has cost me the equivalent of several Hornby Pacifics. My fridge/freezer doesn't seem to be very well either. Still, life must go on. so here is a picture showing what I regard as a nice result of the ballast recolouring.

[great northern]

We are in the middle of a series of pictures taken at a time when I was rather fixated on ballast, and its resultant colour. Here is Brancepeth Castle, surrounded by quite a lot of it.

then we have the two carriage sidings at the North end. I bet they didn't get high grade ballast when first laid, and I doubt much has been renewed since, so they got a darker and hopefully more ash like finish.

[jukebox]

I regret that I have to report the passing away of my washing machine. It was only 21 years old. Its replacement has cost me the equivalent of several Hornby Pacifics. My fridge/freezer doesn't seem to be very well either. Still, life must go on. so here is a picture showing what I regard as a nice result of the ballast recolouring.

1143 1.JPG

 

You know Gilbert, you could have decided not to buy a new washing machine, and just told everyone you were weathering your clothes to match the locos on PN...

 

Scott

[great northern]

You know Gilbert, you could have decided not to buy a new washing machine, and just told everyone you were weathering your clothes to match the locos on PN...

 

Scott

 Nice thought Scott, but I am rather hard of hearing, so things would get rather lonely when people refused to come within a safe distance of me.

[great northern]

More golf today, at Belton Park near Grantham. Forecast is "feels like -1c" at best, so I shall go in search of some thermal underwear, which I know I have somewhere. No need for that at PN in August of course, as the shabby B1 heads off for Grimsby. The thermals might still have been needed there, I suppose.