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Peterborough North


great northern
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11 minutes ago, Grafarman said:

Beautiful coaches, and a lovely mix of liveries/types; any particular reason for the number of BSO's...? Just curious...

 

David

It was an LNER thing David, carried on by BR(E) as though nationalisation had never happened. I believe the reason was that a BSO gave more seating capacity than other types of brake. That's from memory though, and so may well be defective.

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12 hours ago, great northern said:

I'm afraid not. The loco had to reverse its stock to the carriage sidings pretty sharpish, as it is busy on the Down main at present. There were two ways an L1 might get to PN, either from Hitchin, or from Grantham. Back in the distant past we discussed whether Grantham did use them on the locals, and I came to the conclusion that it must have occurred occasionally. Hitchin had lots of them though, and the choice for this mid afternoon stopper would almost certainly have been either a B1 or an L1. My Hitchin B1 is not very well, so the L1 got the job. And how could I have resisted one when Hornby announced it?

 

Thanks for that explanation. I was wondering what an L1 was doing on that sort of journey rather than KX outer suburbans but it is perfectly feasible that it would cover for a B1 although I doubt if the engine crew would be happy about it ! Let’s hope the photographer is on his toes a bit more if/when it appears again. . That afternoon stopper seems to have disappeared from the 1960 timetable so he might not get many more chances ! 

And yes, the Hornby L1 is irisistable!

BTW , the weathering on Wild Swan must be as close to perfection as it is possible to get.

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30 minutes ago, jazzer said:

 

Thanks for that explanation. I was wondering what an L1 was doing on that sort of journey rather than KX outer suburbans but it is perfectly feasible that it would cover for a B1 although I doubt if the engine crew would be happy about it ! Let’s hope the photographer is on his toes a bit more if/when it appears again. . That afternoon stopper seems to have disappeared from the 1960 timetable so he might not get many more chances ! 

And yes, the Hornby L1 is irisistable!

BTW , the weathering on Wild Swan must be as close to perfection as it is possible to get.

 That 2.45pm from Hitchin was part of a diagram for an artic five set which did actually start from KX. It then laid over at Hitchin for a while, before going on to PN. Would there have been an engine change at Hitchin, I wonder?  It is only 44 miles from Hitchin to Peterborough, with 93 minutes allowed for the journey, so I'd have thought crews wouldn't mind an L1 for that. I haven't got my books to hand at present, but I think this set then went on to form a Grantham local from PN, and may even have finally got to Nottingham, Obviously there would be engine changes en route though.

 

Eric Sawford's books show that Hitchin's L1's regularly got as far as Huntingdon, and PN is only 18 miles on from there. Having said that, I have found only one picture of one at PN, and that is on an engineer's train.

 

Many thanks for the last sentence of your reply, which I hope Tim sees. This is a sad time for him, so anything to brighten his days is welcome, I'm sure.

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7 hours ago, great northern said:

 That 2.45pm from Hitchin was part of a diagram for an artic five set which did actually start from KX. It then laid over at Hitchin for a while, before going on to PN. Would there have been an engine change at Hitchin, I wonder?  It is only 44 miles from Hitchin to Peterborough, with 93 minutes allowed for the journey, so I'd have thought crews wouldn't mind an L1 for that. I haven't got my books to hand at present, but I think this set then went on to form a Grantham local from PN, and may even have finally got to Nottingham, Obviously there would be engine changes en route though.

 

Eric Sawford's books show that Hitchin's L1's regularly got as far as Huntingdon, and PN is only 18 miles on from there. Having said that, I have found only one picture of one at PN, and that is on an engineer's train.

 

Many thanks for the last sentence of your reply, which I hope Tim sees. This is a sad time for him, so anything to brighten his days is welcome, I'm sure.

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Gilbert. I am going to have to try to get hold of a copy of a 1958 timetable, (which are probably like gold dust now ) . I am constantly amazed at the number of secondary services you refer to at/different times that had disappeared by 1960. . The 1960 timetable shows no afternoon stoppers from KX to PN until the early evening rush. 

 

As for the long layover at Hitchin, it seems to have been a bit of a GNR/LNER foible to have trains hanging around at a station mid journey for no apparent reason. I have come across this before, notably at Broxbourne but never really found a satisfactory explanation. Apparently it happened quite a lot on the LBSCR and SECR to allow for the loading of milk churns and the practice continued for years after milk churns had finished because the timetablers simply never thought about it ! I doubt that was the case on the GN mainline though.

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5 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Crews always complained that the L1 was a very rough riding engine.  :crazy:

Yes, but it didn't have to get up much speed to keep to the booked times, and spent a lot of time on the slow goods line, so not too much bone jarring I would think. A run down B1 was very rough as well, wasn't it?  At least the L1 had a fully enclosed cab when the weather was bad.

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3 hours ago, jazzer said:

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply, Gilbert. I am going to have to try to get hold of a copy of a 1958 timetable, (which are probably like gold dust now ) . I am constantly amazed at the number of secondary services you refer to at/different times that had disappeared by 1960. . The 1960 timetable shows no afternoon stoppers from KX to PN until the early evening rush. 

 

As for the long layover at Hitchin, it seems to have been a bit of a GNR/LNER foible to have trains hanging around at a station mid journey for no apparent reason. I have come across this before, notably at Broxbourne but never really found a satisfactory explanation. Apparently it happened quite a lot on the LBSCR and SECR to allow for the loading of milk churns and the practice continued for years after milk churns had finished because the timetablers simply never thought about it ! I doubt that was the case on the GN mainline though.

I chose 1958 for that very reason- it was the last year and in many cases the last timetable when the small village stations were still open. Once they went, there was no need for these parliamentary trains dating right back to early GN days to be run.

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40 minutes ago, great northern said:

Yes, but it didn't have to get up much speed to keep to the booked times, and spent a lot of time on the slow goods line, so not too much bone jarring I would think. A run down B1 was very rough as well, wasn't it?  At least the L1 had a fully enclosed cab when the weather was bad.

 

They wouldn't have needed to turn it round, either.

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9 hours ago, 31A said:

 

They wouldn't have needed to turn it round, either.

 

 They probably would tun it round, though . It would need to visit the shed anyway for coal and water ,  otherwise it wouldn't get back to Hitchin, so might as well use the turntable while they were there. 

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1 hour ago, jazzer said:

 

 They probably would tun it round, though . It would need to visit the shed anyway for coal and water ,  otherwise it wouldn't get back to Hitchin, so might as well use the turntable while they were there. 

One other factor is involved here. There wasn't a turntable at New England. There was a triangle instead, as at Grantham.  I have looked this up to make sure I'm right folks.

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Without wishing to be argumentative Gilbert,that's no t strictly true. Grantham was unique in this country for being  the birthplace  of one Derek Betts, NO I digress. The means of turning locomotives was a Scissors Crossing as opposed to a Triangle.

Kind Regards,That One DB.

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5 hours ago, great northern said:

One other factor is involved here. There wasn't a turntable at New England. There was a triangle instead, as at Grantham.  I have looked this up to make sure I'm right folks.

Ah, I stand corrected. I had half an idea that it was a triangle but I didn’t bother to check . I think makes no difference to the need ( or perhaps drivers preference ) to turn the loco.

We had a similar sort of discussion on another thread when someone mentioned that the big tanks on the LBSCR always seem to be photographed chimney first. 

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2 hours ago, CUTLER2579 said:

Without wishing to be argumentative Gilbert,that's no t strictly true. Grantham was unique in this country for being  the birthplace  of one Derek Betts, NO I digress. The means of turning locomotives was a Scissors Crossing as opposed to a Triangle.

Kind Regards,That One DB.

Could someone explain for the benefit of this ignoramous (i.e. me) how a scissors crossing can be used to turn an engine?

 

Lloyd

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25 minutes ago, FarrMan said:

Could someone explain for the benefit of this ignoramous (i.e. me) how a scissors crossing can be used to turn an engine?

 

Lloyd

Hi Lloyd

 

One must remember that Grantham's famous resident was not for turning, so the turn table was removed. With an allocation of pacifics and many visiting ones the turntable was too small. Instead of installing a suitable sized one ( I do not know why) there was a strange triangle scissors crossing arrangement. The 1965 OS map shows this layout despite the tracks having already been lifted. https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/491383/334905/12/100954

Edit you will need to zoom out

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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There was a turntable at Grantham depot originally, in fact it had a 70ft one for turning Pacifics and other big engines, but the foundations under the pivot collapsed and the ground beneath it was judged unsuitable for a new foundation, so the turning triangle scissors crossing type layout was installed instead, in 1951.

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3 minutes ago, 31A said:

There was a turntable at Grantham depot originally, in fact it had a 70ft one for turning Pacifics and other big engines, but the foundations under the pivot collapsed and the ground beneath it was judged unsuitable for a new foundation, so the turning triangle scissors crossing type layout was installed instead, in 1951.

Thanks Steve.

 

 Before typing I should have looked in my GNR loco shed book which has Grantham in it. :read:

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2 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Thanks Steve.

 

 Before typing I should have looked in my GNR loco shed book which has Grantham in it. :read:

That's where I looked Clive (although I had a memory of having read it in the dim & distant past)!  :imsohappy:

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1 hour ago, great northern said:

Today we played golf. There was a starter. He said the only thing he really needed to tell us that we were playing off yellow (forward) tees. He said that twice. Jolly good, we thought, after all it is a fun competition. We did rather well, but when we got in we were told that the competition was off white(back) tees, and that we were disqualified. Our protests were in vain, but it turned out we wouldn't have been in the prizes anyway. The guy who gave us the duff gen had disappeared, but we know where to find him.

 

On the back of that train from Harwich is a BSK. Appropriately for a train from the GE it is a short brake. It is also very nice, so it was photographed.

 

 

276666334_12GEbrake.JPG.0101fa297702316216ea149b4dcd8ad9.JPG

 

Hi Gilbert

 

They are as common as muck, even I have a half made one. It is a cut down Hornby "shortie" Gresley. I have also worked out that with some work to the corridor side I can make a GE section FK and a "normal" SK from two Hornby "shortie"Cks plus the left over bits from my BS+CL twin made from the same source.

100_5802a.jpg.3a3bb00492b717c73d4b26f1b5f8e291.jpg

A little bit of filler is needed in the roof department.

100_5803a.jpg.5aeb45e73aab275c4dc3af2c63e1a1e1.jpg

 

 

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