Peterborough North

[phil.c]

The bottom shot, this is where I think a backscene would work, not that you take many upstairs window pictures

 

With the background removal tool you're using, you might have an adjustable threshold so that the wagons tops are not effected?

[great northern]

4 hours ago, phil.c said:

The bottom shot, this is where I think a backscene would work, not that you take many upstairs window pictures

 

With the background removal tool you're using, you might have an adjustable threshold so that the wagons tops are not effected?

We've tried Phil. Tony W in Oz and Andy Y have both spent time trying to get something presentable done. The problem is that for me, if there is to be a backscene at all, it has to be of what was actually there. That was Spital Bridge shed, then houses on Midland Road above and behind. Getting it to look right from more than one angle was really difficult, even if I could find good enough photos of the shed looking across the GN lines. I strongly suspect that most of the time the whole thing was enveloped in smoke anyway.

[phil.c]

I guess the best you could do is a smokey distant image then?

[great northern]

One last look at this WD as it clanks its way onwards.

 

 

but we can be pretty sure there will be another one along shortly.

 

Coming the other way, the first Leicester local of the day produces that shiny Compound that we see quite often.

Make the best of it though, as it won't be around for much longer.

[great northern]

I can never resist a shot of a train resting  at the excursion platform.

 

 

 

While 41157 is waiting for the off, Grantham's own A3 60111 arrives with the 7.30 from its home town to KX.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

5 minutes ago, great northern said:

I can never resist a shot of a train resting  at the excursion platform.

 

 

 

Hi Gilbert

 

I know to get that shot you have to limbo dance under the baseboard to the window side of the room, just think if you had a back scene along there you might not get such a good shot of that lovely loco from a real railway.

[great northern]

23 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Gilbert

 

I know to get that shot you have to limbo dance under the baseboard to the window side of the room, just think if you had a back scene along there you might not get such a good shot of that lovely loco from a real railway.

Nearly all photos are taken from that side Clive, as it's much easier with the light behind me. As you say, no permanent backscenes on that side. The Midland sidings made a big difference, but I shall now leave well alone. I'm glad you enjoyed our visitor. I rather like it as well, but then I would, as it is a 4.4.0, but not one with peculiar whirring bits.

[great northern]

A3 meets 9F tonight, but don't blow this up, as I've managed to get some camera shake, so its a bit fuzzy.

Then another look at the 9F a bit further along. Not too much on the Down at the moment, so it gets a run along the main.

 

 

[great northern]

Still the coal rumbles towards London. Our convenient heavy freight loco crisis means that this one is headed by one of the on loan 02s.

 

 

 

A side on view as she conitinues on her way.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

12 hours ago, great northern said:

A3 meets 9F tonight, but don't blow this up, as I've managed to get some camera shake, so its a bit fuzzy.

Then another look at the 9F a bit further along. Not too much on the Down at the moment, so it gets a run along the main.

 

 

 

Camera shake. You got yourself too excited again.

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Camera shake. You got yourself too excited again.

I wish.

[great northern]

Some days ago I threatened you with philosophy, but other things intervened. Today is classified as being for quiet reflection though, so you haven't avoided it after all.

 

This splits into two parts. Part 1 concerns this.

 

 

We are looking across the railway room from the doorway. Several things can't be changed, and it would'nt be very good if they were. Here goes:-

 

This room faces South. For that to alter, the earth would have to move, which would not be a good thing.

 

The windows are very large, and in practical terms that can't be altered either.

 

The result is that a lot of light floods in, except when there isn't any.

 

Conclusion, up with it I shall have to put, and so I should stop moaning about it.

 

Next, the room is what it is. It cannot be made bigger in any direction, so for example, Spital Bridge will continue to collide with the wall, rather than continuing into the distance.

 

Conclusion, as above, plus I should keep reminding myself how very lucky I am to have the very large space which the railway occupies.

 

Off now to another subject, namely operation, and the attempt to model with fidelity to the prototype. When Graham visited, incredibly already nearly three weeks ago, his train was delayed eleven minutes at Darlington. According to Network Rail live feed though, it was projected to be only three late by the time it got to Newark. Graham of course knows all about this, and when I asked him about it, the train having arrived 15 down, he reminded me about recovery times. I well remember the controversy they caused in the 50s, and we still have them. He also reminded me about paths, and that his train would have lost it by the time it got to York, let alone further South, so further delay would be inevitable.

 

Now, here am I running a sequence, in which everything appears in the order in which the WTT says it should. This is not prototypical. Think of the many drawbacks of PN's track layout, and the many conflicting movements wjhich had to take place, and the reality is that on normal days, let alone days when there were all sorts of additional relief and Q trains, things were well out of course more often that not.

 

Conclusion?  Dunno.

 

Finally, train formations. I've been having another good look through the HMRS article from a few years ago about the survey conducted in July 1958. I know there are lots of mistakes in it, and that much relies on the accuracy of the guards' logs that were used to put it together, but even so, the differences between actual train make up and what the official book said it should be is fairly startling, at least when talking about semi fast and local services. It should have been different for services with seat reservation opportunities of course. but they were very much the minority.

 

Conclusion? Possibly I should cease to obsess quite so much about getting things "right".

 

I think I now need to lie down in a darkened room for a while, but not the railway room, as there is too much light in there. And the floor is too hard.

 

 

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gilbert

 

How about the following...

 

In my own similar-sized railway room, I have applied 'film' to the windows. This lets in plenty of light but precludes 'prying eyes'. The film only goes up the window as high as is needed to stop those eyes and I can still 'see out' over the top when needed.  I can't recall the view out of your window, but you might get away with just the lower half. It really depends on 'how prying' your neighbours are likely to be and who might see what from where.

 

For your room, take down the vertical blinds and replace with 'up and over' roller-type black-out blinds. These can be motorised and operated with a remote.

 

Hope that is worth thinking about. If you go a shop (or whatever) for a quote, it would be fair to the fitter to have some photos showing how much space is available. To my mind, I would say that any decent fitter could work in your room, but at least it would give them a chance to consider the option.

 

Brian

[Oldddudders]

Hmm, getting it 'right'? Trains do indeed run late, get diverted and cancelled. I spent 5 years in Control being acutely aware of such eventualities, and seeking mitigations. On Thursday my Eurostar was 17' late leaving Paris, which seemed very good given the large % of the French network upon which virtually nothing was running - including the two previous Eurostars, both cancelled. Nevertheless, by good fortune we lost no more time to St Pancras. Arriving at Paddington in good time for the 14.03 to Newton Abbot, I felt I had triumphed over adversity in face of the French strikes. Then some poor soul decided to end it all at Maidenhead, and no train left Paddington for a couple of hours........   

 

Some modellers actually devise a sort of random event generator, which specifies locos short of steam, a hot box on coach #7, a points failure. etc. I'm certain this would add little fun to my idea of operation, just as the traditional playing-card method of determining freight wagon operations does not appeal.

 

If you want to run things a little out of sequence, or cut off a piece of running line due to a 'failure', and that enhances the day's operations, then it isn't hard to do. But I am not convinced you will do it very often. 

 

As for wrong formations, well, the satisfaction in having the right one is clearly a pleasure. Again, why deliberately upset things for no real gain?

[great northern]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Gilbert

 

How about the following...

 

In my own similar-sized railway room, I have applied 'film' to the windows. This lets in plenty of light but precludes 'prying eyes'. The film only goes up the window as high as is needed to stop those eyes and I can still 'see out' over the top when needed.  I can't recall the view out of your window, but you might get away with just the lower half. It really depends on 'how prying' your neighbours are likely to be and who might see what from where.

 

For your room, take down the vertical blinds and replace with 'up and over' roller-type black-out blinds. These can be motorised and operated with a remote.

 

Hope that is worth thinking about. If you go a shop (or whatever) for a quote, it would be fair to the fitter to have some photos showing how much space is available. To my mind, I would say that any decent fitter could work in your room, but at least it would give them a chance to consider the option.

 

Brian

I've been advised about film Brian, but I just haven't got round to it yet. As to replacing the blinds, one of them has sagged a bit, and I did ask my joiner, who did such a good job for me back in August, if anything could be done. He told me there was no way he could get up there!  The platform he built to deal with the bookshelves was keyed in to the outside wall, but obviously that couldn't be done with a window, and there are three of them anyway, so cost would be prohibitive. Distance between baseboard and wall on that side now is just 11 inches, so there's no way of getting ladders up. The windows are so high that even standing on the window sill you wouldn't be able to reach the top.

 

I'm sorry to be so negative, and I do appreciate your suggestions, but sadly I'm stuck with what I have.

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, great northern said:

Finally, train formations. I've been having another good look through the HMRS article from a few years ago about the survey conducted in July 1958. I know there are lots of mistakes in it, and that much relies on the accuracy of the guards' logs that were used to put it together, but even so, the differences between actual train make up and what the official book said it should be is fairly startling, at least when talking about semi fast and local services. It should have been different for services with seat reservation opportunities of course. but they were very much the minority.

 

Conclusion? Possibly I should cease to obsess quite so much about getting things "right".

Gilbert,

 

With regard to train formations, I suspect that the main named trains stuck fairly closely to the booked formations and photos seem to bear this out. They may have the odd coach that was different to that booked (e.g. the Gresley RF which featured in the Elizabethan one year which 'Sir' often reminds us about), but they were mostly as booked, sometimes with a strengthener. I've generally chosen to model mine as booked and without strengthening (as I don't have the room for extra carriages). For the second tier trains - i.e. the main expresses which were not named, there seem to be photographs which show slightly different formations. Things like a Thompson or Gresley substituting for a Mark 1. I've chosen to model some of my trains like this. e.g. my Cleethorpes rake has a Thompson SK and a Gresley BSK(4) vice Mark1s. This was from observation of photographs, although admittedly most photos had either/ or rather than both substitutions - I just like an excuse to mix it up!

 

Finally we have the reliefs/ Summer extras. In this case, the CWN often says something like 'King's Cross to secure'. In this case, I suspect that anything goes. The number of seats will need to be (roughly) matched, but the resemblance to the theoretical CWN formation will be approximate. For example the photo of a B1 approaching Peterborough from the south in 1958 which was discussed on 'Wright Writes' last weekend. I think the trick here is to try to replicate photographs, but all we can do is give a flavour of the type of train which ran.

 

I wasn't there, so much of this is guesswork from photos and a bit of logic. However, I quite expect to be proved wrong in some respects.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Hmm, getting it 'right'? Trains do indeed run late, get diverted and cancelled. I spent 5 years in Control being acutely aware of such eventualities, and seeking mitigations. On Thursday my Eurostar was 17' late leaving Paris, which seemed very good given the large % of the French network upon which virtually nothing was running - including the two previous Eurostars, both cancelled. Nevertheless, by good fortune we lost no more time to St Pancras. Arriving at Paddington in good time for the 14.03 to Newton Abbot, I felt I had triumphed over adversity in face of the French strikes. Then some poor soul decided to end it all at Maidenhead, and no train left Paddington for a couple of hours........   

 

Some modellers actually devise a sort of random event generator, which specifies locos short of steam, a hot box on coach #7, a points failure. etc. I'm certain this would add little fun to my idea of operation, just as the traditional playing-card method of determining freight wagon operations does not appeal.

 

If you want to run things a little out of sequence, or cut off a piece of running line due to a 'failure', and that enhances the day's operations, then it isn't hard to do. But I am not convinced you will do it very often. 

 

As for wrong formations, well, the satisfaction in having the right one is clearly a pleasure. Again, why deliberately upset things for no real gain?

I suspect you are right Ian. It is far easier just to follow the sequence, but if there is something I don't fancy setting up, I have been known to cancel it.

 

The formations are a different matter. The problems I have with coupling incompatibility often leave me with just one connection that can't be made, and I have muttered often when I have an SK available, but the book specifies an SO, which I don't. Now I have a perfect excuse for saving time and profanities by substituting the SK.

[great northern]

8 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Gilbert,

 

With regard to train formations, I suspect that the main named trains stuck fairly closely to the booked formations and photos seem to bear this out. They may have the odd coach that was different to that booked (e.g. the Gresley RF which featured in the Elizabethan one year which 'Sir' often reminds us about), but they were mostly as booked, sometimes with a strengthener. I've generally chosen to model mine as booked and without strengthening (as I don't have the room for extra carriages). For the second tier trains - i.e. the main expresses which were not named, there seem to be photographs which show slightly different formations. Things like a Thompson or Gresley substituting for a Mark 1. I've chosen to model some of my trains like this. e.g. my Cleethorpes rake has a Thompson SK and a Gresley BSK(4) vice Mark1s. This was from observation of photographs, although admittedly most photos had either/ or rather than both substitutions - I just like an excuse to mix it up!

 

Finally we have the reliefs/ Summer extras. In this case, the CWN often says something like 'King's Cross to secure'. In this case, I suspect that anything goes. The number of seats will need to be (roughly) matched, but the resemblance to the theoretical CWN formation will be approximate. For example the photo of a B1 approaching Peterborough from the south in 1958 which was discussed on 'Wright Writes' last weekend. I think the trick here is to try to replicate photographs, but all we can do is give a flavour of the type of train which ran.

 

I wasn't there, so much of this is guesswork from photos and a bit of logic. However, I quite expect to be proved wrong in some respects.

 

Regards

 

Andy

I think you are quite right Andy. A passenger who had reserved a seat in a corridor coach might well get shirty if he found that an open had been substituted, but on an ordinary service, he'd have to get into whatever was available. I just think we should be careful not to model too many oddities, or at least not to run them all on the same day.

[great northern]

Let's get back to the pictures. Here's a J6 on its way down either to South Yard or to Fletton. Whichever, it will spend a shift shunting.

 

 

It seems Doncaster is still not happy that 60090 is ready to go back to Haymarket, as it is still on their own duties, this time the 5.50 KX - Grantham.

 

 

 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, great northern said:

Some days ago I threatened you with philosophy, but other things intervened. Today is classified as being for quiet reflection though, so you haven't avoided it after all.

 

This splits into two parts. Part 1 concerns this.

 

 

We are looking across the railway room from the doorway. Several things can't be changed, and it would'nt be very good if they were. Here goes:-

 

This room faces South. For that to alter, the earth would have to move, which would not be a good thing.

 

The windows are very large, and in practical terms that can't be altered either.

 

The result is that a lot of light floods in, except when there isn't any.

 

Conclusion, up with it I shall have to put, and so I should stop moaning about it.

 

Next, the room is what it is. It cannot be made bigger in any direction, so for example, Spital Bridge will continue to collide with the wall, rather than continuing into the distance.

 

Conclusion, as above, plus I should keep reminding myself how very lucky I am to have the very large space which the railway occupies.

 

Off now to another subject, namely operation, and the attempt to model with fidelity to the prototype. When Graham visited, incredibly already nearly three weeks ago, his train was delayed eleven minutes at Darlington. According to Network Rail live feed though, it was projected to be only three late by the time it got to Newark. Graham of course knows all about this, and when I asked him about it, the train having arrived 15 down, he reminded me about recovery times. I well remember the controversy they caused in the 50s, and we still have them. He also reminded me about paths, and that his train would have lost it by the time it got to York, let alone further South, so further delay would be inevitable.

 

Now, here am I running a sequence, in which everything appears in the order in which the WTT says it should. This is not prototypical. Think of the many drawbacks of PN's track layout, and the many conflicting movements wjhich had to take place, and the reality is that on normal days, let alone days when there were all sorts of additional relief and Q trains, things were well out of course more often that not.

 

Conclusion?  Dunno.

 

Finally, train formations. I've been having another good look through the HMRS article from a few years ago about the survey conducted in July 1958. I know there are lots of mistakes in it, and that much relies on the accuracy of the guards' logs that were used to put it together, but even so, the differences between actual train make up and what the official book said it should be is fairly startling, at least when talking about semi fast and local services. It should have been different for services with seat reservation opportunities of course. but they were very much the minority.

 

Conclusion? Possibly I should cease to obsess quite so much about getting things "right".

 

I think I now need to lie down in a darkened room for a while, but not the railway room, as there is too much light in there. And the floor is too hard.

 

 

 

Others have chimed in while I was in bed (not getting excited and the earth didn't move) but here's my four penn'orth anyway:

 

Conclusion 1 - I'd have another look at roller blinds. We've just had several installed. Even given the narrow space they would make so much difference that I'd try again to find a way. Try a specialist blinds firm rather than your general-purpose builder?

 

Conclusion 2 - Agree.

 

Conclusion 3 - Always best to focus on the commonplace. On my layout everything runs in the sequence it should otherwise it would foul up the storage loop occupation. Unless there are any simple examples where you could change the order of things, I'd leave them as they are.

 

Conclusion 4 - More scope for flexibility/compromise here. Changing formations is legitimate as long as it remains the exception. If you have room to store them, different formations on different days would work too. I agree that unless you are modelling a single day and you have irrefutable evidence of the exact formation of every train nobody can say you're wrong. To intrude on your own territory, are you looking for "Absolute truth" (no such thing), "beyond reasonable doubt" or "balance of probability"?

 

Finally an observation/conclusion of my own:

 

Conclusion 5 - what you have is way more and way better than most folk have. Stop fretting and enjoy it!

[jukebox]

13 hours ago, great northern said:

Some days ago I threatened you with philosophy, but other things intervened. Today is classified as being for quiet reflection though, so you haven't avoided it after all.

 

This splits into two parts. Part 1 concerns this.

 

 

We are looking across the railway room from the doorway. Several things can't be changed, and it would'nt be very good if they were. Here goes:-

 

This room faces South. For that to alter, the earth would have to move, which would not be a good thing.

 

The windows are very large, and in practical terms that can't be altered either.

 

The result is that a lot of light floods in, except when there isn't any.

 

Conclusion, up with it I shall have to put, and so I should stop moaning about it.

 

Next, the room is what it is. It cannot be made bigger in any direction, so for example, Spital Bridge will continue to collide with the wall, rather than continuing into the distance.

 

Conclusion, as above, plus I should keep reminding myself how very lucky I am to have the very large space which the railway occupies.

 

Off now to another subject, namely operation, and the attempt to model with fidelity to the prototype. When Graham visited, incredibly already nearly three weeks ago, his train was delayed eleven minutes at Darlington. According to Network Rail live feed though, it was projected to be only three late by the time it got to Newark. Graham of course knows all about this, and when I asked him about it, the train having arrived 15 down, he reminded me about recovery times. I well remember the controversy they caused in the 50s, and we still have them. He also reminded me about paths, and that his train would have lost it by the time it got to York, let alone further South, so further delay would be inevitable.

 

Now, here am I running a sequence, in which everything appears in the order in which the WTT says it should. This is not prototypical. Think of the many drawbacks of PN's track layout, and the many conflicting movements wjhich had to take place, and the reality is that on normal days, let alone days when there were all sorts of additional relief and Q trains, things were well out of course more often that not.

 

Conclusion?  Dunno.

 

Finally, train formations. I've been having another good look through the HMRS article from a few years ago about the survey conducted in July 1958. I know there are lots of mistakes in it, and that much relies on the accuracy of the guards' logs that were used to put it together, but even so, the differences between actual train make up and what the official book said it should be is fairly startling, at least when talking about semi fast and local services. It should have been different for services with seat reservation opportunities of course. but they were very much the minority.

 

Conclusion? Possibly I should cease to obsess quite so much about getting things "right".

 

I think I now need to lie down in a darkened room for a while, but not the railway room, as there is too much light in there. And the floor is too hard.

 

 

 

 

I have been quietly waiting for your "philosophy" post, Gilbert; I had expected it to delve into the human nature of group-think, recalcitrant "members", and the dealings with factions at your golf club, and how those issues manifests themselves in the railway modelling community... but I was well off target.

 

Your windows.  I agree with what others have suggested, that there is an engineering solution to getting access to those fixtures to add/subtract/alter the soft furnishings.  It may not be simple, and finding someone who can work with you to develop something might be hard, but if I understand it correctly, the 11" you have in front of those windows would allow some form of support to reach the floor and bridge the layout to temporarily gain access.  It probably comes down to making a call as to how much the excess of light coming in those windows really bothers you or affects your enjoyment.

 

Train sequences and "reality". And train formations.  Your pondering here is really the same issue:  you have created the "chocolate box" version where all trains run to the timetable, there are no interlopers, and the formations are strictly "by-the-book".  And from what I understand, that perfection is starting to bother you.

 

I believe this second slice of philosophy is actually harder to solve than the first (the first is pure engineering/economics; but "satisfaction" is harder to nail down).

 

The advice I would offer you is to take a little time to contemplate what it is you now what to achieve with PN.  You have the majority of the layout sorted; you are steadily improving the representations of the "chocolate box" formations and timetable.  Anything beyond that strays into the world of supposition... not quite fiction, but recreating operational anomalies that generally are only recording by photographs in passing.  Where does that search end? - do you only place cars and motor vehicles in the station forecourt if you have evidence they were parked there?  Do you check the weathering on all your top link fleet to make sure that there is a record of each loco in the state of weathering you currently run them in?  It really could go to the n-th extreme...

 

So here's a question:  are you wanting to try and recreate things seen in a photo, but not a timetable?   More importantly, would that make you happy?  That last question is truly the key:  PN is your miniature world.  We are just grateful bystanders, watching the recreation you are responsible for with envy via the photos you post.  The photos you take, and spend so much time editing, keep us happy. But what about *you*?   If you run representations of those anomaly services you mention, or run a train out of sequence, the only way we would know you didn't just swap the order of the photos you took, is if you told us. 

 

I truly hope there are times you go into the layout room, bring a train out from the storage tracks, and just let it circle the room a few dozen times, and sit back and enjoy it's progress around the layout.  No camera to think about.  No photoshop to wrestle with.  No directional light spills to worry about.  Just you and a train.

 

Work out what makes you happy.  Do that.

 

We will celebrate whatever your "that" is.

 

Cheers,

 

Scott

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[stewartingram]

Re the blinds - could they be fitted from the outside? Not as extreme as you might think though. 1) If the windows open, that could provide access, even if the windows only partly open. Hinges could be unscrewed for example. 2) Could the windows be removed, and new ones fitted - old wooden ones giving way to upvc for example? I fitted the whole of our house (& I'm no window fitter!) very cheaply using the following supplier. Genuinely the same windows (and doors) as used by other mainstream double glazing sharks suppliers, with great backup over the phone.

 

https://www.justdoorsuk.com/

 

Stewart

Edited December 16, 2019 by stewartingram

[westerner]

Agree with Stewart about outside blinds, rather like the roller ones that shops and cafes and tavernas in Greece have.

Edited December 16, 2019 by westerner

[stewartingram]

Just to clarify, I was inferring above that perhaps the blinds could be fitted inside but access made via the window opening.

Outside blinds is another option that I hadn't thought about.

 

Stewart

[Oldddudders]

I have no curtains. All my windows - which open inwards - have external shutters.