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Peterborough North


great northern
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9 minutes ago, bigwordsmith said:

Prototypes - hmm should we specify that as 'Prototypes that never turned into production machines?" otherwise DP1 and Falcon are the obvious winners as they went on to become production machines.

 

Could we even exclude them as really they were more 'pre-production' models than prototypes?

Falcon was a Type 4 prototype in a similar way to Lion and DP2. However the 47 was rather different to all three, so I’m not convinced any could be said to have become production machines. And you might have to rule out DP2 if you use your criteria. 
 

We could just accept that ‘Deltic’ will win by a mile and vote for second place?!

 

Andy

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I must be too late for the poll, but what about the humble J15?

Introduced by the GER as a Y14, in 7/1883, with the final 4 being withdrawn in 9/1962. There were 27 batches built up to 1913, giving a total of 259 built. No.930 was erectected in a record time of 9hr 45 mins, went into steam for the camera, then straight into 50000 miles of revenue service. And of course 65462 remains in service at Weybourne on the NNR.

 

Stewart

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I'm sure I am too late for the poll too, but I would argue that the Saint, essentially the first successful 2 cylinder express and later mixed traffic loco in the UK changed the face of steam engine design for good. A small number were still at work nearly 50 years later, but their direct derivatives were with us until the end of steam in the UK: Halls, Black Fives, BR standard fives et al. 

 

Best wishes,

 

Alastair

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32 minutes ago, bigwordsmith said:

Prototypes - hmm should we specify that as 'Prototypes that never turned into production machines?" otherwise DP1 and Falcon are the obvious winners as they went on to become production machines.

 

Could we even exclude them as really they were more 'pre-production' models than prototypes?

Striking and innovative Peter, rather than successful, were the criteria. I don't think we could exclude DP1 and Deltic. As it happens they led further, whereas others did not, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were the most striking visually, or the most innovative. Some others may have been too innovative for their own good.

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So if we're going to follow Gilbert's advice, which I've always found very valuable, of 'Striking and innovative, rather than successful,' then it has to be Kestrel

 

Falcon fails because it was successful in its eventual guise, as were DP1 and DP2.

Lion could be a contender, but it was too similar in looks to Falcon, and anyway my Heljan model of it kept falling off the points and had to go back.

 

Totally daft I know, but apart from Lion, for the above reason, I actually have models of all the others as well as 10201, which again fails the 'successful' test as it went on to form the basis of the 'Peaks' or was it the Class 40?

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Lion was closest to cl.47, different electrics but the same Sulzer engine I believe. Falcon had Maybach Md655 engines as in Westerns but with electric transmission. Dp2 was the forerunner of Cl.50 but the production series were made more complex by addition of many electronic features which caused many problems.

I think it has to be Deltic, dp1, even though it only led to 22 locos. They showed the way forward, high speed, high mileage a foretaste of what the h st would bring.Bazza

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13 hours ago, Denbridge said:

I'd have to say the GW castles for steam 1st ones built in 1923 with batches being built into BR days. During this period they also remained in front line passenger service. Surely a record for an express passenger class.

I would go one step earlier and say the GWR Star class. Not only did they do pretty much the work they were designed to do for nearly half a century, but were the basis of the  Castles and Kings that were in front line service till the end of steam, and to a lesser extent one might say influential in LMS design via Stanier. 

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1 hour ago, great northern said:

The poll result. I'm not surprised at the identity of the winner, but I am at the margin of victory. HST gathered 11 votes, and nothing else got more than two or three. Very few steam locos even got a mention, even though there were some which were still performing the same duties, and very competently too, for which they had been designed 40 years previously.

 

However, HST may have ensured the survival of at least long distance rail travel in the UK, and for that we should be very grateful.

 

What to do today? The remaining suggestion in my inbox is that we finish off diesels by considering the various prototypes built from the late 1940s onwards. Of course the Fell may just romp away with this:mosking:, but let's give it a go. The most attractive design of diesel prototype, perhaps with innovative features thrown in. Some of them didn't work, and others didn't lead to anything further, but that is irrelevant here. The most striking and innovative please.

 

Any more ideas please? This does seem to be giving interest and pleasure, so I'd like to keep it going. Two very good suggestions gave us yesterday and today's polls, so more in that vein if you can.

How about most innovative CME?

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37 minutes ago, Bazza said:

Lion was closest to cl.47, different electrics but the same Sulzer engine I believe. Falcon had Maybach Md655 engines as in Westerns but with electric transmission. Dp2 was the forerunner of Cl.50 but the production series were made more complex by addition of many electronic features which caused many problems.

I think it has to be Deltic, dp1, even though it only led to 22 locos. They showed the way forward, high speed, high mileage a foretaste of what the h st would bring.Bazza

Lion's engine did the rounds in various class 47s after the loco was dismantled.

 

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Prototype loco has to be GT3, it looked spectacular, like a semi streamlined steam loco. 

 

It was competing with the same company's highly reliable and efficient DP2. 

 

As an engineering feat it was remarkable. First it was built like a steam loco in having a cab at the back of the gubbins and a tender, it didn't need to be like that it could have been on a single frame and a cab each end , no need for turntable then.

 

It had a highly efficient gas turbine engine, a jet engine. Coupled to a mechanical gear box, like on a lorry. Even the GWR realised that to get the maximum out of a gas turbine locomotive an electric transmission is better.

 

If I were cynical, I would say it was designed to make DP2 look good, by being so useless and expensive to build and operate. After all English Electric were building reliable locos, engines, traction motors and generators and what a better way to demonstrate to the accountants that competitors ideas of jet engined locos were good for the future than build one that fails.

 

 

One little note it didn't have a "spare set of BR class 4 4-6-0 frames", it had a new set of strengthened frames that could take the weight of the turbine and the transmission.

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7 minutes ago, bigwordsmith said:

Thought Lion was a BRCW loo and Falcon came from Brush - I had forgotten about the Maybach engine, but if BRCW got the winning powertrain, why didn't they get the Class 4 order?

They went out of the train building business after losing so much money in redesigning the Slim Jim Cromptons for the SR's Hastings line. 

 

AEI who supplied the electrical gear were also in finical trouble at the time following the rebranding of their BTH and Metro-Vick products.

 

BR had ordered some more Peaks with Brush electrical gear in them. With Sulzer offering the uprated engine and the design panels work on Lion an opportunity arose to completely rethink the order of 20 more Peaks and what Brush offered looked very attractive so BR ordered what we now call the Duffs (class 47). 

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1 hour ago, great northern said:

I have done housework, and arranged for clearance of 25 years worth of accumulated rubbish from my garage. I am now in a state of shock, and having a cup of tea and a banana.

 

Must be something about today, I have also been attacking the shed which has stuff in it that has been in there a similar length of time. I needed something that was at the back! However, my mid-session break treat was a coffee with a peanut butter sarnie not a banana. 

Edited by john new
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