Peterborough North

[great northern]

4 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Was he highly-regarded or something? Or just a sop to the Union at the dawn of nationalisation?

He was a high ranking ASLEF man, as I recall. Presumably naming the first one after a union official rather than a member of the board or other such traditional recipients was to signal the brave new dawn.

[60027Merlin]

39 minutes ago, JamieR4489 said:

Saint Johnstoun. I don’t dislike Perth I just think it’s a clunky name not suited to a big express engine. It would have been better on an NBR 4-4-0.

 

It was previously on a NBR Atlantic along with nine others which also were used for the A1s.

 

[David Bell]

Bois Roussel for me too

[CUTLER2579]

35 minutes ago, great northern said:

He was a high ranking ASLEF man, as I recall. Presumably naming the first one after a union official rather than a member of the board or other such traditional recipients was to signal the brave new dawn.

He rose to the rank of General Secretary of A.S.L.E.F. in 1940 before going on to become a member of the Railway Executive.

H was highly thought of in both positions by both soides.

However the story has it that in the cab of 60114 was a  plate stating  "NOT TO WORK NORTH OF NEWCASTLE".

Now Bill was born in Scotland, so that may have had some bearing on the matter,but rumour also has it that the nameplates were stolen a few times in Scotland prior to the sign being installed. 

[jazzer]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Wasn't he a Union official of the time? There was obviously a reason for choosing the name.

 

But I agree, rather uninspiring compared to the continued tradition of inspirational racehorse names

He was indeed an ASLEF official and I believe he became a member of the Post War Railway Executive or some such body.  An uninspiring name perhaps, but if the A4’s could be named after LNER senior managers it’s reasonable to have one from the metaphorical “shop floor” . 

[jazzer]

2 hours ago, great northern said:

Did win the Derby in 1938 though.

I know but I don’t think many racehorses, especially on the A3’s had much charisma. 

[Metropolitan H]

I'm another voting for "W.P. Allen" - however well hought of he was, it doesn't st well on such a magniicent loco - especially with the use of TWO initials !

 

Best wishes for a Good New Year at Peterborough North.

 

Regards

Chris H

[Oldddudders]

7 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

I'm another voting for "W.P. Allen" - however well hought of he was, it doesn't st well on such a magniicent loco - especially with the use of TWO initials !

So would you say the same for H.A.Ivatt? Most here wouldn't, I bet. And in the context of running a railway over the next 50 years, being on cordial terms with ASLEF would certainly have been an advantage. 

 

I will opt for Amadis, which sounds like a latin verb, but who seems to have been an Iberian character in C14 literature. 

[Metropolitan H]

7 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

So would you say the same for H.A.Ivatt? Most here wouldn't, I bet. And in the context of running a railway over the next 50 years, being on cordial terms with ASLEF would certainly have been an advantage. 

 

I will opt for Amadis, which sounds like a latin verb, but who seems to have been an Iberian character in C14 literature. 

Ian,

 

Yes, my comments would equally apply to the use of "H.A. Ivatt" as an A1 loco name - despite my very great appreciation of his works for the GNR, some of the most magnificent locomotives of the pre- WW1 era.

 

Generally, I feel the use of real people's names on locomotives - apart from Monarchs a a very few national heros - is a bit awkward as most of the populous are unaware of who they are / were. There is also the problem of needing change the name when mis-deeds are later uncovered.

 

Regards

Chris H

[2750Papyrus]

Do I recall a tale that the use of initials instead of Christian names was dictated by the perceived limited space on the smoke deflectors?

 

As I'm not a fan of the renaming of A4s after relatively unknown directors, I have no guilt in expressing similar sentiments regarding union officials/Railway Executive executives.  So W P Allen is my nomination. 

 

Much better to have been J G Robinson!

 

 

 

 

[Oldddudders]

19 minutes ago, Metropolitan H said:

There is also the problem of needing change the name when mis-deeds are later uncovered.

Mis-deeds, I infer from things I have read here over the years, might not bode well for 60500!

[thegreenhowards]

I have no problem naming locos after loco designers or national heros. Other names I’m less keen on. And I did think about H.A. Ivatt for my favourite name but rejected it because of the pompous middle initial!

[great northern]

31 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I have no problem naming locos after loco designers or national heros. Other names I’m less keen on. And I did think about H.A. Ivatt for my favourite name but rejected it because of the pompous middle initial!

But wasn't the middle initial necessary to identify which H Ivatt it was? I think we need to remember also that these names were decided in a much more formal age. No doubt it would be "Harry Ivatt" or similar now, but that would not have been countenanced in 1948.

[New Haven Neil]

Has to be Bois Roussel for me, can't pronounce it!

[Flying Fox 34F]

46 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I have no problem naming locos after loco designers or national heros. Other names I’m less keen on. And I did think about H.A. Ivatt for my favourite name but rejected it because of the pompous middle initial!

I use my middle initial in my signature, does this mean I must be pompous?????

 

Paul (B) Mellor

[thegreenhowards]

27 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I use my middle initial in my signature, does this mean I must be pompous?????

 

Paul (B) Mellor

So do I come to think of it! I just don’t like it on the side of a loco although I do take Gilbert’s Point.

[LNER4479]

50 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I use my middle initial in my signature, does this mean I must be pompous?????

 

Paul (B) Mellor

Not as pompous as having TWO middle initials ... (ahem! Although I blame it on the parents)

 

Re famous names falling from grace, one of the Robinson B3 4-6-0s was named 'Lloyd George' - with the nameplates subsequently removed after the 'cash for honours' scandal.

 

Conversely, LMS pacific 6256, named after my railway designer hero, had to have nameplates lengthened after said gentleman was accorded the honour of being made a Fellow of the Royal Society.

[Clive Mortimore]

Worse A1 name in my opinion Great .............

 

I better not say too much about the Johnny Come Lately railway it was named after but what a cheek trying to take the MR's traffic away.

[great northern]

1 hour ago, New Haven Neil said:

Has to be Bois Roussel for me, can't pronounce it!

Easy- Boys Rustle. That's what eleven year olds called it. I hadn't started learning French then.

[jazzer]

I’ve read up a little bit on W P Allen in Norman McKillops book The Lighted Flame , which is the history of ASLEF.

 

Bill Allen as was known to everyone started as a cleaner on the GNR , working 12 hour shifts for 5years , earning 2s 6p per shift which even in those days was a pittance. He turned out to be a talented negotiator and rose through the ranks to become General Secretary of ASLEF by 1940.  He seems to have been a bit of a Dynamo spending 49 Sunday’s a year visiting ASLEF branches all over the country , many of whom had not seen a top Union official for years. He seems to have been well thought of by both management and men and was awarded the CBE in the 1947 New Years Honours List , which in those days would not have been awarded if the Railway companies didn’t endorse it.  Then because of his organisational talents he  was promoted to the Railway Executive.

So , it seems to me that as names go W P Allen is at least as deserving , if not more so than Lord Hurcomb or Sir Brian Robertson . 

 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I use my middle initial in my signature, does this mean I must be pompous?????

 

Paul (B) Mellor

You can't read things into middle initials, let alone the use of them. My grandfather was Henry Almond Barnatt, but he wasn't a nutcase.

[LNER4479]

35 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Worse A1 name in my opinion Great .............

 

I better not say too much about the Johnny Come Lately railway it was named after but what a cheek trying to take the MR's traffic away.

Oi! I thought you were s'posed to be building a coach - get back to that workbench from whence you came ...

[Black Marlin]

Very late to the party, I know, but for me the best names for the Peppercorns and the Gresleys were:

Gresley A1/A3: Hyperion
Gresley A4: Quicksilver

Peppercorn A1: Silurian
Peppercorn A2: Sun Chariot

I like 'Sun Chariot' in particular. It puts me in mind of Andrew Marvell's great poem, 'To His Coy Mistress', which contains these lines - 

"But at my back I always hear

Time’s wingèd chariot hurrying near;

[...]

Let us roll all our strength and all

Our sweetness up into one ball,

And tear our pleasures with rough strife

Through the iron gates of life:

Thus, though we cannot make our sun

Stand still, yet we will make him run."

[Metropolitan H]

Regarding 60500 - Agreed.

 

In general I am not a fan of loco named for Lords, Directors or Union Official or CMEs - its a personal thing and the initials just make it worse!

 

Regards

Chris H

Edited January 1, 2021 by Metropolitan H
Hadn't noticed the further page of responses!

[Market65]

This is a very difficult poll, but after much thought, I’m going with Bois Roussel as mentioned earlier.

 

 Rob.