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1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’m not an expert on the LMS, but while the Duchesses maybe the ‘sexiest’, surely the Black 5 and 8F were the ‘best’ measured in terms of success and fitness for purpose? 
 

I’ll go Black 5.

 

Andy

And I wouldn't disagree in any way if the Black 5 came out top.

 

But!

 

Just to say that, although unashamedly my favourite loco of all time, my nomination of the Duchess is not really due to it being the 'sexiest'. Interestingly, in your citing of  'success' and 'fitness for purpose' as criteria for 'best', I would argue that the Duchess design scores high on both. They were undoubtedly a 'success' and in terms of 'fitness for purpose', they had a very specific purpose - to take 550 ton trains unaided over the northern banks. And that is exactly what they did! It's often forgotten that much of their work was done at night time on the heavy overnight sleeper trains, rarely recorded or photographed. In doing the research for my 'Hills of the North' project, I hadn't realised just how many such trains there were. Something like eight Scottish departures alone from Euston throughout the evening, most of which were allocated to a Duchess, with a further member of the class typically taking over at either Crewe or Carlisle. With some of those turns being two day workings, you've easily got half the class tied up on such trains.

 

Small, niche class? Possibly. Best in terms of success and fitness for purpose? Absolutely! 

 

Edited by LNER4479
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Another vote for the Black 5 4-6-0. Despite the graneur of the Duchesses, it was the 842 go anywhere, do anything 4-6-0s that really made the railway tick.

 

The 8F 2-8-0s were also pretty impressive - but not the best looking 2-8-0, that accolade is reserved for Mr Churchward's 47xx class (with 5ft 8inch drivers) on another railway!

 

Regards

Chris H

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Ivatt class 2 tanks. Modern engines far superior to anything previously designed for the work they were employed on , economical to run easy to service and maintain , comfortable and ergonomic  for the crews ( whose opinions were sought at design stage) very wide route availability, 70-75 mph on test with no vibration , and could work for 15 hours without servicing.

 

 A Cinderella loco perhaps but a very successful design . Gets my vote.

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I am going for the very successful but not glamorous class 4 passenger tanks. The Fowler version soldiered on almost to the end of steam, the Stanier 2 cylinder and the Fairburn versions almost saw steam's farewell. Stanier's 3 cylinder locos as I have stated before possibly got more passengers safely to their destinations on a daily basis than the Coronation Princess class did. Ivatt's WT class of the NCC, later NIR lasted even longer.

 

As it such a hard choice I will go for the tender version the Northern Counties Committee W class 2-6-0, very successful and useful. The NCC is a British railway as it is within the borders of the UK of GB and NI, and was owned by the LMS.  A version for the main system on the island of Great Britain would have equally successful, but with so many Crabs and later Black Fives there did not appear to be a need for a loco that would do the same work despite how good the tank versions were.

 

LMS/NCC Stewart W class 2-6-0. image.png.23fa9faf8944f01552c56783465fa188.png

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4 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

And I wouldn't disagree in any way if the Black 5 came out top.

 

But!

 

Just to say that, although unashamedly my favourite loco of all time, my nomination of the Duchess is not really due to it being the 'sexiest'. Interestingly, in your citing of  'success' and 'fitness for purpose' as criteria for 'best', I would argue that the Duchess design scores high on both. They were undoubtedly a 'success' and in terms of 'fitness for purpose', they had a very specific purpose - to take 550 ton trains unaided over the northern banks. And that is exactly what they did! It's often forgotten that much of their work was done at night time on the heavy overnight sleeper trains, rarely recorded or photographed. In doing the research for my 'Hills of the North' project, I hadn't realised just how many such trains there were. Something like eight Scottish departures alone from Euston throughout the evening, most of which were allocated to a Duchess, with a further member of the class typically taking over at either Crewe or Carlisle. With some of those turns being two day workings, you've easily got half the class tied up on such trains.

 

Small, niche class? Possibly. Best in terms of success and fitness for purpose? Absolutely! 

 

I can’t argue with that...almost as good as a Gresley pacific!

 

But the Black 5 and 8F still win for me on numbers alone.

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8F and Black5 have to be the choice as the numbers and widespread use must indicate their suitability for the tasks they had (have), so that wins it for me as they are also handsome engines is the icing on the top.

Edited by jollysmart
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3 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I am going for the very successful but not glamorous class 4 passenger tanks. The Fowler version soldiered on almost to the end of steam, the Stanier 2 cylinder and the Fairburn versions almost saw steam's farewell. Stanier's 3 cylinder locos as I have stated before possibly got more passengers safely to their destinations on a daily basis than the Coronation Princess class did. Ivatt's WT class of the NCC, later NIR lasted even longer.

 

As it such a hard choice I will go for the tender version the Northern Counties Committee W class 2-6-0, very successful and useful. The NCC is a British railway as it is within the borders of the UK of GB and NI, and was owned by the LMS.  A version for the main system on the island of Great Britain would have equally successful, but with so many Crabs and later Black Fives there did not appear to be a need for a loco that would do the same work despite how good the tank versions were.

 

LMS/NCC Stewart W class 2-6-0. image.png.23fa9faf8944f01552c56783465fa188.png

Interesting choice but H P Stewart is not one of the qualifying designers designated by the Rules Committee ( Gilbert ) :huh:

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30 minutes ago, jazzer said:

Interesting choice but H P Stewart is not one of the qualifying designers designated by the Rules Committee ( Gilbert ) :huh:

Ah but, Stanier authorised Stewart to go ahead using off the shelf LMS bits and bobs. Therefore I should have correctly called them Stanier Class W. Had I done so someone would have said they were a Stewart design, remember Stewart was Stanier's man in Northern Ireland, so correctly they should be Stanier/Stewart Class W.

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