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00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4: Freight Stock – 4-wheel (Pre-1951)

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the fourth in our series of seven Mini-Polls concerning rolling stock that has at least some connection with Peterborough North. I am running them on behalf of Gilbert. Mini-Poll No.5 Post-1951 4-wheel Freight Stock will follow next week, with No.6 Bogie Freight Stock the week after. We eventually finish with No.7 Departmental Stock.

 

There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later. I have listed Banana Vans 'generically' - but were any seen at or passing through PN?

 

You can submit your wishes here, on the thread, as usual, or PM me direct if you prefer the ‘secret ballot’ method.

 

If you vote on the thread, please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selection – hopefully, that will promote some interesting debates – but please do not take it as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items listed.

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7, 9, 12 – with comments and explanations following.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1. Banana Vans (there are too many to list individually)

2. Bulk Grain Hopper Wagon 22½-ton (Diag.73 of late 1930s)

3. Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

4. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as built (Diag.134 of 1938)

5. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as rebuilt, Recessed Doors, Branded ‘XP’/‘Insul Fish’, Painted White, (Originally Diag.134 of 1938)

6. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends with Small Shutters (Diags.14-17 of 1926)

7. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

8. Low Machinery Wagon, Lowmac 4-wheel, 21-ton (inc BR Diags.2/240 etc of 1949/51)

9. Low Machinery Wagon, Flatrol 4-wheel, 20-ton (inc BR Diag.2/512 of 1949)

10. RCH Coal Wagon 5-, 6-, 7- & 8-plank (1887-1907)

11. Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

12. Tube Wagon Unfitted, 30ft 6ins & 32ft 0in (BR Diags.1/447 & 1/448 of 1951 and 1954)

 

Technically speaking, the Fish Vans are NPCCS, but – as previewed – I have moved them here as the earlier NPCCS Mini-Poll was running at ‘maximum load’ and they were longer vehicles anyway. There are sometimes queries about exactly which variant of any item is being looked at. The answer is that it is often impossible to be ‘deadly precise’ with a 1-line descriptor, so we take the view that ‘if it looks like a Cattle Wagon, it probably is a Cattle Wagon’ – although I have to admit that the Bulk Grain Hopper listed today does look rather like a long wheelbase van!:)

 

Recent past experience is showing that makers are ‘tooling up’ to make as many variants as they can for any new model.

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will acknowledge receipt of your vote via the ‘Thx’ tick box.

 

You have until 17.00 on Thursday 10 June. However, I will stop earlier and advise if votes reach 50. I will present the results during the day on Friday 11 June.

 

I look forward to your selections and comments!

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Gilbert’s thread only and neither The 00 Wishlist Poll Team nor RMweb are specifically involved, apart from me in my ‘personal capacity’.)

Edited by BMacdermott
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Hello everyone

 

My choices are: 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 11 and 12.

 

The two 12ft Wheelbase Fish Vans would add much needed variety to the current Bachmann LNER 10ft wheelbase bauxite and Hornby 15ft wheelbase white versions. I have also gone for both types of Goods Vans which could be made in fitted and unfitted versions on wood or steel underframes, with some having planking variations.

 

Whilst it has to be said that there are many Flatrol diagrams, some had just penny numbers built, but we have seen various other ‘heavy duty’ vehicles come to market. It can run empty or have your choice of a very wide range of interesting loads. We have Bogie Bolsters and Double Bolsters but – as yet – no Single Bolsters. These are needed for many purposes, either in their own right or capturing overhang etc.

 

And finally, back in 2015, I got very excited when Bachmann introduced its Tube Wagon, only to be deflated to find they had picked a fully fitted diagram. Hence my vote for an unfitted one.

 

Brian

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Good morning Brian, thank you - more food for thought!

 

Considering which of the above I would be likely to buy for my own layout, which only haas gods facilities for 'genera merchandise' I will vote for 

 

1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10

 

Banana vans - I have two of BR types at the moment so some variety would be welcome.

 

Fish vans - I have recently built both types from Parkside kits, but that's not to say I wouldn't buy some more.

 

Goods vans Diagrams 14-17 - I take it (without looking it up) these are the wooden underframe LNER vans.  Noting what you say about manufacturers tooling up for variants, I think this could give 9ft and 10ft wheelbases, vacuum and unbraked in both versions?  I think I'm right in saying Bachmann did the 10ft wb wooden underframe a while back for the 'short' fish van but have not used it for anything else.

 

Plywood sided van - coincidentally I saw one of these on a video I was watching last night (BTF "Fully Fitted Freight" - the telly was rubbish) and thought there's a gap in the market!  There was also a fruit van variant.

 

 

 

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55 minutes ago, 31A said:

Goods vans Diagrams 14-17 - I take it (without looking it up) these are the wooden underframe LNER vans.  Noting what you say about manufacturers tooling up for variants, I think this could give 9ft and 10ft wheelbases, vacuum and unbraked in both versions?  I think I'm right in saying Bachmann did the 10ft wb wooden underframe a while back for the 'short' fish van but have not used it for anything else.

 

Plywood sided van - coincidentally I saw one of these on a video I was watching last night (BTF "Fully Fitted Freight" - the telly was rubbish) and thought there's a gap in the market!  There was also a fruit van variant.

 

Thanks Steve

 

I'm not sure about wheelbase variations on these as I don't have any LNER wagon books that give Diagram Numbers. I have attached a PDF of what we wrote in The Guide to The 00 Wishlist Poll 2019.

 

Brian

 

 

Mini-Poll Goods Vans.pdf

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1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4: Freight Stock – 4-wheel (Pre-1951)

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the fourth in our series of seven Mini-Polls concerning rolling stock that has at least some connection with Peterborough North. I am running them on behalf of Gilbert. Mini-Poll No.5 Post-1951 4-wheel Freight Stock will follow next week, with No.6 Bogie Freight Stock the week after. We eventually finish with No.7 Departmental Stock.

 

There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later. I have listed Banana Vans 'generically' - but were any seen at or passing through PN?

 

 

Thanks Brian,

 

May I make some general comments about freight stock before giving you my vote as they will put my choices into context (and will apply to the subsequent polls).

 

The 'big picture' statistics (as I first read in Don Rowland's 'British Railways Wagons (the first half million)') that I always remind myself of are that, in 1948 British Railways inherited approx 1.25 million wagons (the exact number was never known). Of those, approx 500,000 were coal wagons. So I guess, it is pretty much these 1.25 million wagons that mini-poll No.4 is considering.

 

Putting aside coal wagons (which are a story all of their own), the large majority of the other wagons would be either opens or vans for general merchandise - and rather more of the former (with a hefty supply of tarpaulins), at least initially. Other vehicle types, including fish and banana vans, I would regard as specialist vehicles. Generally in small quantities and meant for specific 'flows' (routes, if you like). So, depending on your layout, you either need 20 fish vans - or you need none at all. As it happens, Gilbert's layout DOES need fish vans, as it is of course on the key route for the classic north sea coast fish traffic.

 

So my own personal mantra when it comes to freight stock for yer average layout is that the balance should be about 40% coal wagons; 50% vans/opens and then 10% 'specialist' wagons (including the bogie stock that you're covering later). I would - incidentally - lump cattle vans into the 'general' category, as they were pretty much seen all over the country and many stations had facilities for handling them.

 

The 'problem' is that the RTR boys love 'specialist' wagons(!) and they generally sell well. 'General' vans and opens are boring!

 

My question to you, therefore is where are the 'opens' on your list?(!) Or is it the case that you consider them already well provided? Certainly there is a decent LNER steel open (with the distinctive circular pockets) available RTR. And the wooden planked version has been done in the past (often incorrectly depicted as a coal wagon). (sorry - I'm hopeless with wagon diagram numbers!). But there must be plenty of other options available (noting that wagons travelled widely so ex-LMS wagons would be seen in ex-LNER territory etc).

 

The other type I would like to highlight are the many and various 6-wheel vans that were still to be seen running round in the early 1950s. Noting your comment earlier about the NPCCS poll being 'full up' is their space for those in a poll? Technical NPCCS, things like CCTs and former milk and fish types could often be seen in 'freight trains' equally as much as parcels trains. There's a virtually untapped, rich vein there for an enterprising RTR manufacturer.

 

So(!) with the above in mind, my votes would be for:

 

3. Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

6. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends with Small Shutters (Diags.14-17 of 1926)

7. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

11. Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

 

But some opens would be nice!

 

Graham

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3 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Thanks Graham

 

I will reply fully shortly but I guess you meant Item for Cattle Wagon? Your post stated 3.

 

Brian

I did mean cattle wagon Brian - I simply 'cut n pasted' from your list above where it is listed as item 3?

 

Or are we at crossed purposes?

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My poll choices are 3.4.5.6.7.10 and 12.

 

This is one area in which I did have the advantage of expert advice from Andy Rush, who worked in the area at the time. He told me that it was very rare to see identical vans together, and sadly that is what I have at present. Some different diagrams would therefore be a big help. Same applies with fish vans, and cattle wagons.

 

Andy said that by 1958 about one in ten mineral wagons would still be timber, so I could use a few. Bogie bolsters, plate and tube wagons also appeared. He started his general comments with "plenty of sheeted highfits in all trains". Later on he added "Lots of large crates were despatched, unsheeted, in highfits and lowfits, often in batches". This confirms Graham's observations above.

 

Not applicable to this particular poll, but if anyone could tell me what type of Presflos and what liveries would be appropriate for 1958, I would be most obliged. Andy told me I needed them, in batches, but couldn't help with liveries.

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Hello Graham

 

I fully take and agree with all your points and comments, particularly that the makers will often go for ‘the glamour types’ in advance of the ‘workhorses’ that aficionados such as ourselves would prefer. Let me set out some of the difficulties…

 

In my introduction, I said: “There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later.”

 

On Saturday, I supplied a long list of what has come to market since 2000 – the ‘broadly open’ types amongst those were as below, hence they are not on my list:

Bachmann Highfit Steel Open

Bachmann 1-plank Lowfit

Bachmann 3-plank Open

Bachmann Shocbar Open

Bachmann Pipe Wagon

Bachmann Fitted Tube

Dapol 4-plank Open

Dapol 5-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Dapol 7-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Oxford 6-plank General Merchandise - LNER

Oxford 7-plank Wagon

Rapido SECR 5- & 7-Plank Wagons

 

In The 00 Wishlist Poll 2019 we listed a total of 97 individual steam era wagons along with 17 ‘catch all’ titles such as SECR Wagons, Vans & Brake Vans – which include ‘opens’’ – as we simply had no room to list everything. The specifically-noted ‘opens’ among those were:

 

GWR 9ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR 10ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR Open Shock Wagons

SR 5-plank Open

SR 8-plank Open 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase

SR Container Wagon 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase (could be used for what were known as ‘invalid cars’)

SR Container Wagon 18ft 7in Wheelbase (ditto)

LMS General Merchandise Opens (Diag.1666 etc)

LMS/LNER/BR Unfitted Tube Wagon

LMS/LNER/BR Lowfit – 1-plank

LMS/BR Medium Goods – 3-plank

(BR) Continental Ferry Wagons – Open

BR Medium Goods – Steel 13-ton

BR High Goods – Open 13-ton

BR High Goods – Shochood B

BR High Goods – Shocroof A

 

Note that we had no specific LNER types!

 

Within the 2019 Poll, we listed 68 NPCCS items. As far as 6-wheelers were concerned, that was split as:

8 – Milk Tankers (and Trailer Carriers)

6 – BG or CCT types

3 – Fish Vans

 

I am happy to run other Mini-Polls for you in the future, but that will be subject to Gilbert agreeing.:)

 

Brian

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1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Graham

 

I fully take and agree with all your points and comments, particularly that the makers will often go for ‘the glamour types’ in advance of the ‘workhorses’ that aficionados such as ourselves would prefer. Let me set out some of the difficulties…

 

In my introduction, I said: “There are no doubt hundreds of different freight vehicles that would have been seen at Peterborough North over the years, but our Mini-Polls can only capture a small number. If you feel something is missing, please let me know – with reasons – and I will try to fit it in later.”

 

On Saturday, I supplied a long list of what has come to market since 2000 – the ‘broadly open’ types amongst those were as below, hence they are not on my list:

Bachmann Highfit Steel Open

Bachmann 1-plank Lowfit

Bachmann 3-plank Open

Bachmann Shocbar Open

Bachmann Pipe Wagon

Bachmann Fitted Tube

Dapol 4-plank Open

Dapol 5-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Dapol 7-plank Open 9ft Wheelbase

Oxford 6-plank General Merchandise - LNER

Oxford 7-plank Wagon

Rapido SECR 5- & 7-Plank Wagons

 

In The 00 Wishlist Poll 2019 we listed a total of 97 individual steam era wagons along with 17 ‘catch all’ titles such as SECR Wagons, Vans & Brake Vans – which include ‘opens’’ – as we simply had no room to list everything. The specifically-noted ‘opens’ among those were:

 

GWR 9ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR 10ft Wheelbase Opens

GWR Open Shock Wagons

SR 5-plank Open

SR 8-plank Open 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase

SR Container Wagon 9ft & 10ft Wheelbase (could be used for what were known as ‘invalid cars’)

SR Container Wagon 18ft 7in Wheelbase (ditto)

LMS General Merchandise Opens (Diag.1666 etc)

LMS/LNER/BR Unfitted Tube Wagon

LMS/LNER/BR Lowfit – 1-plank

LMS/BR Medium Goods – 3-plank

(BR) Continental Ferry Wagons – Open

BR Medium Goods – Steel 13-ton

BR High Goods – Open 13-ton

BR High Goods – Shochood B

BR High Goods – Shocroof A

 

Note that we had no specific LNER types!

 

Within the 2019 Poll, we listed 68 NPCCS items. As far as 6-wheelers were concerned, that was split as:

8 – Milk Tankers (and Trailer Carriers)

6 – BG or CCT types

3 – Fish Vans

 

I am happy to run other Mini-Polls for you in the future, but that will be subject to Gilbert agreeing.:)

 

Brian

Thanks Brian,

 

No specific request from me re future polls; just happy to be in general agreement over the types and mix of vehicles.

 

I'd love to post some prototype photos but would probably run into copyright issues. However, if I may, these two pictures illustrate our approach to putting together what we believe to be representative goods trains for running on Shap:

 

1747044327_Aug_111950sbankedgoods.JPG.12b9ae5097690961e7e902a9a2ae440a.JPG

This is the 'early BR' Class D goods (it carries the proper lamp code at a show!). This is based on a 1952 Eric Bruton picture and the front half of the train at least is 'correct' or as correct as we can reasonably make it in terms of vehicle types (the rear portion is a bit more of a general rag bag!). There's some RTR in here but otherwise kit-built items have been used as they're almost all 'big 4' wagons. There's not so many opens here but the prototype picture did show a fair proportion of vans.

 

1045214569_Aug_18vantrain.JPG.ae96a007424df5a9a8e2a9c5a05a46eb.JPG

From later on in the 1950s, this is my van train, gradually assembled over the years from Parkside kit builds, with a few RTRs thrown in to the mix. This gets its inspiration from innumerable pictures of such trains but one in particular - on the S&C actually but I'm happy it's representative. I think this illustrates dear old Andy Rush's point of 'no two vans alike' that Gilbert has referred to. It was definitely the look I was aiming for. The S&C picture is actually as late as 1965 when you would have thought that the BR 'standard' vans would dominate yet there's still a glorious mix of body and roof styles.

 

Hope that's of interest.

 

 

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Although predominantly a GWR/WR modeller , I can make use of 3,6,7 and 11. Most of them would fit in with stock from other regions in the same train. The single bolster would compliment the TMC/Bachmann double one nicely.

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Hello everyone

 

A picture on page 119 of Rail Centres: Peterborough shows three Stanton wagons in 1965 (according to the caption).

 

Are these LMS Diag.1806 Cement Hoppers?

 

Were they 'regulars' at PN?

 

Brian

 

 

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Diagram 14-17 were all 9ft wheelbase:-

 

14 - wood u/f, unfitted

15 - steel u/f, unfitted

16 - wood u/f , AVB

17 - steel u/f, AVB

 

94 was also a wood u/f, AVB van but with 10ft wb.  Many of these were subsequently converted to Fruit vans.

 

My vote goes to 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11

 

Chris KT 

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23 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

A picture on page 119 of Rail Centres: Peterborough shows three Stanton wagons in 1965 (according to the caption).

 

Are these LMS Diag.1806 Cement Hoppers?

 

Were they 'regulars' at PN?

 

Brian

 

 

They are not the LMS ones but Stanton had their own for either Lime or Cement!

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36 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

I love building wagon kits so am not really interested in r-t-r duplications.

 

My selection would be 1, 3, 8, and 11, plus any containers that aren't already available to add variety.

 

John

 

Hello John

 

I have just re-read your post on Tony Wright's thread.

 

My apologies...I have mis-read it as you wanting to see RTR models made, whereas you were referring to Parkside Kits.

 

I haven't logged your votes above on the basis that you are not interested in duplications and any votes here must be on the basis of what you would realistically buy if ever made.

 

Apologies again.

 

Brian

 

 

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15 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello John

 

I have just re-read your post on Tony Wright's thread.

 

My apologies...I have mis-read it as you wanting to see RTR models made, whereas you were referring to Parkside Kits.

 

I haven't logged your votes above on the basis that you are not interested in duplications and any votes here must be on the basis of what you would realistically buy if ever made.

 

Apologies again.

 

Brian

 

 

Hi Brian,

 

The ones I picked I would buy. I have produced an approximation of a 10'wb LNER cattle van by converting the Parkside kit for the 9' version but r-t-r is easily good enough to beat it nowadays.:unsure:

 

I'll also be getting the forthcoming r-t-r LNER banana van from whoever is doing it.

 

The fish and goods vans I already have in abundance one way or the other.

 

My single bolsters are ex-SECR from the Cambrian kit so a different pair would be fine.

 

One omission I noted from your list was a 10' wb fitted 6-plank, I'm just completing one from a Cambrian body cross-kitted with the underframe from a Parkside Lowfit, but I wouldn't mind a couple more by an easier route!

 

Regards

 

John

 

 

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Many thanks John

 

All votes duly logged and acknowledged with the 'Thx' tick.

 

I didn't list the LNER 6-plank as it is already made RTR by Oxford. Having had some good chats earlier in the thread with Graham (LNER4479), I have made some alterations to the content of Mini-Poll No.5 (next Monday) to include more 'Opens''.

 

Brian

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3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Thanks Brian,

 

No specific request from me re future polls; just happy to be in general agreement over the types and mix of vehicles.

 

I'd love to post some prototype photos but would probably run into copyright issues. However, if I may, these two pictures illustrate our approach to putting together what we believe to be representative goods trains for running on Shap:

 

1747044327_Aug_111950sbankedgoods.JPG.12b9ae5097690961e7e902a9a2ae440a.JPG

This is the 'early BR' Class D goods (it carries the proper lamp code at a show!). This is based on a 1952 Eric Bruton picture and the front half of the train at least is 'correct' or as correct as we can reasonably make it in terms of vehicle types (the rear portion is a bit more of a general rag bag!). There's some RTR in here but otherwise kit-built items have been used as they're almost all 'big 4' wagons. There's not so many opens here but the prototype picture did show a fair proportion of vans.

 

1045214569_Aug_18vantrain.JPG.ae96a007424df5a9a8e2a9c5a05a46eb.JPG

From later on in the 1950s, this is my van train, gradually assembled over the years from Parkside kit builds, with a few RTRs thrown in to the mix. This gets its inspiration from innumerable pictures of such trains but one in particular - on the S&C actually but I'm happy it's representative. I think this illustrates dear old Andy Rush's point of 'no two vans alike' that Gilbert has referred to. It was definitely the look I was aiming for. The S&C picture is actually as late as 1965 when you would have thought that the BR 'standard' vans would dominate yet there's still a glorious mix of body and roof styles.

 

Hope that's of interest.

 

 

There is a desperate need for a decent LMS van with wrinkly tin ends. Poor Graham is having to make do with the squat Bachmann abomination, 2nd and 4th vans top photo. 

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