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15 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Brian,

 

If you want a real fright, check out Page 40 of Don Rowland's "Twilight of the Goods"

 

SR 10' wb 5-plank, built unfitted in 1943, with (presumably second-hand) split-spoke wheels that have survived the addition of vacuum braking by BR in the 1950s, and with BR Oleo buffers which might, or might not, have been fitted at the same time.

 

Split-spoke wheels and Oleo buffers on the same wagon? Surely not.:devil:

 

The paint on it looks pretty new, so were all the changes concurrent and recent or was the AVB added earlier, with the buffers replacing older (extended) ones at a further overhaul/repaint not long prior to the taking of the photo in 1960?

 

Fascinating, and (for me) completely addictive.

 

John

 

Thanks John

 

Indeed, I do have that book!

 

I guess I'm just like you...we have a question, we research the question, we get an answer, but that answer produces two more questions!! The subject is simply exponential in nature!

 

I well remember once when running the 'old main Poll' that someone wrote to us in an extremely irate manner castigating The Team for not listing Wagon A with Buffers B, Wheels C, in Livery D, as running in years E-F.

 

Our Mini-Polls are simply for fun (and 'education'). The mantra still applies: If it looks like a Cattle Wagon, it probably is a Cattle Wagon.

 

Brian:rolleyes:

 

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1 minute ago, BMacdermott said:

 

Thanks John

 

Indeed, I do have that book!

 

I guess I'm just like you...we have a question, we research the question, we get an answer, but that answer produces two more questions!! The subject is simply exponential in nature!

 

I well remember once when running the 'old main Poll' that someone wrote to us in an extremely irate manner castigating The Team for not listing Wagon A with Buffers B, Wheels C, in Livery D, as running in years E-F.

 

Our Mini-Polls are simply for fun (and 'education'). The mantra still applies: If it looks like a Cattle Wagon, it probably is a Cattle Wagon.

 

Brian:rolleyes:

 

Unless its an Ale or Broccoli wagon.....

 

John:angel: 

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1 hour ago, great northern said:

My appalling ignorance where wagons are concerned comes into sharp focus now, so I am still thinking about this part of the poll. While I do that, here is the formation of the train behind Champion Lodge, which is shown as having been on a two day cycle, mainly round Peterborough on the first day, but venturing as far as Bury St Edmunds on the second.

 

 

970922359_8rake1.JPG.6e132fb0120148e7f00f462660f7c9c3.JPG1306310485_9rake2.JPG.ea3214b09ffa54f3c54f8165388adf9f.JPG482293928_10rake3.JPG.386f3ebf271490077445eeb9310f6b0a.JPG2105518057_11rake4.JPG.ec99c2f4aa8589ac53f9b668d8429e9c.JPG500922634_12rake5.JPG.a23c0938c7c94eea03448d46d0227b9e.JPG

All very logical until one comes to the non corridor car tacked on the end. Understandable in an ad hoc formation, but this is from the Carriage Working book.

 

 

 

Nice coaches - as you know I always like to see what’s behind the engine. It looks odd not having a brake at the back.

 

Andy

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Well, as the trouble-maker partly responsible for this additional poll, I'd better cast my votes:

 

9ft wheelbase Opens

2 LMS 9ft wb 5-plank Open Wagon (Diag.1666 of 1923)

 

10ft wheelbase Opens

6 LMS 10ft wb 5-plank Open Wagon (Diags.1892 & 2110 of 1934 & 1946)

9 BR 10ft wb 5-plank Open Wagon (GWR Diag.O31, from 1932 with 21 various BR diagrams)

10 LNER 10ft wb 6-plank Open Wagon (from c.1932)

 

I've only voted for one of the 9ft types anyway; if I was to choose just one of the 10fts then it would be No.10.

 

In terms of comments, I think I made them already. Only thing to add is that both books I've looked at (Rowland BR wagons and Essery/Morgan LMS wagon) refer to the generic type as 'open merchandise wagons' which I think is a good description and makes it clear that these wagons were not designed to carry minerals (RTR manufacturers please note!)

 

Graham

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13 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

Well, as the trouble-maker partly responsible for this additional poll, I'd better cast my votes:

 

9ft wheelbase Opens

2 LMS 9ft wb 5-plank Open Wagon (Diag.1666 of 1923)

 

10ft wheelbase Opens

6 LMS 10ft wb 5-plank Open Wagon (Diags.1892 & 2110 of 1934 & 1946)

9 BR 10ft wb 5-plank Open Wagon (GWR Diag.O31, from 1932 with 21 various BR diagrams)

10 LNER 10ft wb 6-plank Open Wagon (from c.1932)

 

I've only voted for one of the 9ft types anyway; if I was to choose just one of the 10fts then it would be No.10.

 

In terms of comments, I think I made them already. Only thing to add is that both books I've looked at (Rowland BR wagons and Essery/Morgan LMS wagon) refer to the generic type as 'open merchandise wagons' which I think is a good description and makes it clear that these wagons were not designed to carry minerals (RTR manufacturers please note!)

 

Graham

Exactly Graham, if you watch (as you do and we do no doubt) those good old films of yesteryear then there are the Merchandise Wagons loaded with all sorts; sacks, bundles of stuff, crates, machines, barrels, wood, unidentifiables and, of course secret items covered in Sheets. IIRC, Control in the old days was VERY particular about what wagons carried what and ordered stuff on demand so local Yard gaffers had to be on the ball all the time.

P

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7 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Exactly Graham, if you watch (as you do and we do no doubt) those good old films of yesteryear then there are the Merchandise Wagons loaded with all sorts; sacks, bundles of stuff, crates, machines, barrels, wood, unidentifiables and, of course secret items covered in Sheets. IIRC, Control in the old days was VERY particular about what wagons carried what and ordered stuff on demand so local Yard gaffers had to be on the ball all the time.

P

One does see pictures of long coal trains ion the early ‘50s with the odd 5 plank wagon in the consist. Were these dedicated mineral wagons or just an open goods which has been borrowed ‘illegally’?

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Hello Andy, Phil and Graham

 

Many moons ago, a BR book with a title something along the lines of Wagons on Hand, Ordered & Despatched, Bath Green Park was loaned to me by the Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust. It was one of the 'big' books that the railway kept massive amounts of hand-written data in. A gold mine of information!

 

Most pages were legible but many had been somehow soaked in oil - I'd guess the book had been 'liberated' from a dumping session.

 

The left hand column showed all the (main/regular) wagon types with dates across the top. Notes of 'specials' etc were at the foot of the pages.

 

I took photos of all pages that I could - but my copy has 'gone awol' for the moment! If I find it - and I am now on a hunt for it! - I will post some typical pages for you.

 

Brian

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24 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

One does see pictures of long coal trains ion the early ‘50s with the odd 5 plank wagon in the consist. Were these dedicated mineral wagons or just an open goods which has been borrowed ‘illegally’?

 

Not only the 1950s - you see this before the War as well.    I sneaked a 5 plank open into one of the Grantham coal trains several years ago and no-one has ever commented on it.

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There's always the exception that proves the rule, the one-off, unusual etc (some of which would be photographed for exactly that reason,  thereby making it look more normal than it really was)

 

I'm a great believer in basing one's approach around the typical / normal / planned etc and then, by all means, indulging in a few 'funnies' along the way. There was plenty enough variation in the 'plan' on a day-to-day basis as it was (can still be the case)

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9 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

There's always the exception that proves the rule, the one-off, unusual etc (some of which would be photographed for exactly that reason,  thereby making it look more normal than it really was)

 

I'm a great believer in basing one's approach around the typical / normal / planned etc and then, by all means, indulging in a few 'funnies' along the way. There was plenty enough variation in the 'plan' on a day-to-day basis as it was (can still be the case)

I base my coal train loosely on various early ‘50s pictures in the Book of the Great Northern. They all seem to have a small number of shorter, presumably 5 plank, wagons in them.

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General merchandise wagons did end up being loaded with coal. Owing to their smaller volume a full load couldn't be carried. If they arrived at a destination which unloaded by end tipping or had a rotating tippler they would have to be shunted out the train and hand unloaded.

 

There were some coal merchants who only required a five plank wagon. This would have been considered a mineral when they were pooled during WW2 and passed on to BR as such.

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Yes - even further back into the 1930s I have this uneasy feeling that our (Grantham) coal trains have too many 7-planks (and more) in them whereas the 5-plank type should be more dominant. 

Edited by LNER4479
To clarify - a response to Green Howard's post, above Clive's
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4 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I have this uneasy feeling that our (Grantham) coal trains have too many 7-planks (and more) in them whereas the 5-plank type should be more dominant. 

 

Put that on the agenda for the 25th.   I'm not sure I agree.

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4 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

General merchandise wagons did end up being loaded with coal. Owing to their smaller volume a full load couldn't be carried. If they arrived at a destination which unloaded by end tipping or had a rotating tippler they would have to be shunted out the train and hand unloaded.

 

There were some coal merchants who only required a five plank wagon. This would have been considered a mineral when they were pooled during WW2 and passed on to BR as such.

The giveaway, though not completely bulletproof, is that the presence of sack-truck doors definitely indicates a merchandise wagon, whereas their absence  usually means it's a mineral. 

 

Body length offers a further clue, but is heavily age-dependent. 5-plank minerals generally 16' or 16'6", but most merchandise wagons seemed to go over to 17' 6" concurrently with vans going the same way.

 

John

Edited by Dunsignalling
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My votes in the poll would be 1,2,5,6,10. 

Reason is that I see a good number of LMS and GW wagons in the photos around the Ripon area. 

 

For the focus it would be 2 (lots of them) and 10 (LNER)

 

Jon

 

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