Peterborough North

[landscapes]

4 hours ago, great northern said:

Things were a bit hurried earlier, so I have now done a bit of photoshopping to give 60518 better surroundings.

 

Some explanation would not go amiss either, so here goes. Having seen the many efforts to improve the appearance of the A2/2, Tim and I concluded that, however hard one tried, the deficiencies of the painting and lining could not be completely disguised. As Tim had by this time worked out how to reduce the model to its constituent parts, it became possible to consider going to the extremes of a complete repaint., and in the end, that is what I asked him to do. It should not, of course, have been necessary, but it seemed the only way to find out how good the model really is. Well, now we know.

 

The light today was poor, and my photos don't do the loco full justice. Tim did, however, photograph it in full sunshine outdoors before he began to weather it, and he will post those pictures later. I can only describe them as spectacular.

 

Why this loco? I do like to replicate Tim's dad's 1958 photos where possible, and this was a lovely shot to start with. Tehran was a Gateshead engine, so not a regular sight at PN, but fortunately it visited Doncaster in mid August 58 for just over a week for a casual repair, so it is quite likely to have been used once or twice on trial trips, and equally likely that Doncaster would use it for a few days at this very busy time of year before sending it back where it belonged. We also agreed that the Works might well have given it a bit of a clean, and got rid of some of the Gateshead grime, so here it is again, with a proper background against which to admire it.

 

 

Hi Gilbert

 

A stunning looking model, and as per usual Tim’s has done you and the A2/3 proud his work is excellent.

 

Looking at your earlier photos I was going to ask you did Tim completely re-line loco and tender, but as you have already explained he also carried out a complete respect as well.

 

I totally agree with your comments, when I purchased recently my Hornby A2/2 60501 I was also very disappointed with the green livery and awful reddish linings.

 

I did replace all loco and tender linings using Fox Transferes lining sheets but did not have the skill or equipment for a complete respray, so instead I applied  a heavy weathering finish which I believe was a common sight for this class of Loco.

 

The loco looks great on your layout, I do have a few photos of Tehran on Haymarket MPD.

 

Regards

 

David

[great northern]

After that close crop of Donny Rovers, I moved the camera round a bit, and looked along the length of the platform.

 

 

This gives quite a good impression of distance, I think, and the wagons on the Midland keep it tightly framed.

[BMacdermott]

Results – 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.6: Container Wagons & Containers

 

Sad to say, there was a lowish turn-out for this one but many thanks to the 13 voters who did take part. Three quarters of you voted for the top two items.

 

The number of votes to each item is shown in the left hand column and Comments Received are appended on a PDF as usual. And you certainly commented!

 

Please note that the results reflect the views of those who voted here and may not necessarily reflect those of the wider modelling community.

 

Interesting to note that – once again – the Big Four types are higher up the ladder than BR types but that there seems to be some good focus towards the BM Containers for Fresh Meat. Maybe Gilbert and I will get our Meat Trains in the future!

 

High Polling

10        LMS Container Wagon – Chassis (numerous diagrams)

10        LNER Container Wagon – Conflat S (Diag.104)

8          Containers – BR types – A, AF, BM & FM Fresh & Frozen Meat, etc

8          SR Container Wagon – 9ft & 10ft wheelbase (Diags.1382 & 1399 of 1931/1938)

 

Middle Polling

7          SR Container Wagon – 18ft 7in wheelbase (Diag.1383 of 1931)

6          Containers – Big Four types – GWR, SR, LMS & LNER

5          GWR Container Wagon – Conflat A (Diag.H10 of 1944)

5          BR Conflat L Wagon & L Containers (Diag.1/068 of 1951 on)

 

Low Polling

2          BR Conflat B Wagon & AFP Container (Diag.1/461 & Diag.3/256 of 1958)

1          BR Container Wagon – Conflat P ‘Condor’ (Diag.1/060 of 1959)

1          Containers – BR Speedfreight (Diag.3/006 etc from 1961)

 

Your Focused Choices of Containers (only) are:

6          BM Fresh Meat

4          FM Frozen Meat

1          Big Four diagrams of both A and B length

1          BR Furniture

1          BR A type

1          LNER BL Type (but see Comment Nos.11 & 12 for further detail)

 

Plus, a Conflat ISO Wagon was noted (ex-Lowfit).

 

Security Chains & Shackles (with thanks to 31A for the advice)

N Brass Locos do some very nice etched ones which come as one piece and are easy to use, as well as being good value: https://www.nbrasslocos.co.uk/oovaried.html

 

Tune back in on Monday for: 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.7: Freight Stock – Bogie, plus Palbrick for consistency.

 

Brian

 

 

 

Mini-Poll No.6 Containers Comments Received.pdf

[Timara]

8 hours ago, landscapes said:

Hi Gilbert

 

A stunning looking model, and as per usual Tim’s has done you and the A2/3 proud his work is excellent.

 

Looking at your earlier photos I was going to ask you did Tim completely re-line loco and tender, but as you have already explained he also carried out a complete respect as well.

 

I totally agree with your comments, when I purchased recently my Hornby A2/2 60501 I was also very disappointed with the green livery and awful reddish linings.

 

I did replace all loco and tender linings using Fox Transferes lining sheets but did not have the skill or equipment for a complete respray, so instead I applied  a heavy weathering finish which I believe was a common sight for this class of Loco.

 

The loco looks great on your layout, I do have a few photos of Tehran on Haymarket MPD.

 

Regards

 

David

 

 

Hi David,

 

It was indeed a complete repaint and lining.  Thankfully, the model reduces to component parts very easily, making masking up of the bits I didn't want paint getting on much easier.  The glazing refuses to budge, so that's just masked off and sliced around very carefully.  Lining is from HMRS sheet 8.

 

It really is worth the effort to replace the dreadful/insipid green with the right one, especially if the lining is going too!   Hope that helps anyway.

 

Cheers,

Edited June 25, 2021 by Tim

[great northern]

Time for Deltic to roar in again, on its normal southbound diagram.

 

 

[great northern]

Deltic waiting for the off. Probably rattling the windows of the hotel, even from this distance.

 

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Gilbert & everyone

 

I am intrigued by the 10.05am Aberdeen to King's Cross Meat train.

 

Looking at the Summer 1961 Freight WTT, the train was booked passing Peterborough at 10.11pm. That rules out most photographic possibilities there, but - in late June - there would have been plenty farther north and at Aberdeen itself.

 

So...does anyone know of any photos?

 

Secondly, I'm sure many here will be fully aware of the accident between Huntingdon and Peterborough on 15 December 1961. The Meat Train was involved and the Reporting Officer stated that it comprised 25 Vans. Note that he used the term 'vans', whereas Containers that were in one of the other trains were specifically noted as 'containers'.

 

The WTT notes that the formation of the Meat Train was in the Freight Trains Marshalling Book.

 

If we get no joy with photos or Marshalling Books from this appeal, I will start a new RMweb thread to see if that results in any.

 

Brian

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

Could this be it?

 

Are the shadows correct for 10.05am?

 

Brian

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/aberdeen-1950s.html

[31A]

41 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

Could this be it?

 

Are the shadows correct for 10.05am?

 

Brian

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/aberdeen-1950s.html

 

I should think the shadows would be right, for a train heading south from Aberdeen in the morning.

[BMacdermott]

Hello Steve

 

That's my impression, but can any one confirm that it is actually Aberdeen?

 

Brian

[65179]

3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello everyone

 

Could this be it?

 

Are the shadows correct for 10.05am?

 

Brian

 

https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo/aberdeen-1950s.html

 

Isn't it a bit short of meat containers for a meat train? The low res image is hard to decipher, but there appear to be signs of corrugated ends of BDs, but unless I'm mistaken no louvres for BMs and no sign of mucky white to suggest FMs.

 

Simon

[BMacdermott]

Thanks Simon

 

It's too hard to decipher anything with any certainty. I would buy the photo - it's about £12.00 to download - but there's still no certainty that we'd be able to see any more distinctly.

 

Brian

[LNER4479]

6 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello Steve

 

That's my impression, but can any one confirm that it is actually Aberdeen?

 

Brian

Pretty certain that's Aberdeen, Brian.

 

The train has just cleared Ferryhill junction, signalbox in the background, the first / last of the location's distinctive gantries immediately to the right of that.

 

It's an unusual viewpoint; the closest comparison shot I can find - albeit from the other side of the line - is here https://www.flickr.com/photos/jbg06003/23317628711/

The 3-doll bracket signal, signalbox and gantry can all be seen as a good match for the V2 picture.

 

60955 was a long time Ferryhill (61B) resident and quite well photographed. Looks to be getting nicely into her stride for the climb up to Cove Bay - bet it was making a wonderful sound!

 

No idea about the containers though!

Edited June 26, 2021 by LNER4479

[LNER4479]

Slide 7 of slideshow from the excellent Railscot site:

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/F/Ferryhill_Junction/slideshow.html

 

... 60016 on the West Coast Postal is passing some containers. No idea what type they are but they're definitely containers!

 

 

[65179]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Slide 7 of slideshow from the excellent Railscot site:

 

https://www.railscot.co.uk/locations/F/Ferryhill_Junction/slideshow.html

 

... 60016 on the West Coast Postal is passing some containers. No idea what type they are but they're definitely containers!

 

 

 

The visible ones are meat containers ( BMs ) on Conflats A.

 

Simon

[great northern]

Deltic has roared away, and fish empties now appear on the Down line, bound for Hull.

 

 

[65179]

On 22/06/2021 at 10:22, BMacdermott said:

 

Hello Andy

 

A picture on page 47 of Don Rowland’s book, Twilight of the Goods, shows a BM sitting on a BR Conflat A.

 

I posted a PDF about Containers a few posts back. If you want to look at that and - possibly - revise your votes, I will be happy to take them.

 

Brian

 

As BMs have cropped up again, the view on the cover of Twilight of the Goods

is particularly interesting. It shows a BM container on an LMS container chassis. The chassis is one to D.1838 altered to have all the features (container fixings and fold down 'platform') of the later builds, but retaining its long brake lever (later builds had a short one mounted to the left of the right hand axlebox like many LMS fitted vans). It's a rare view showing how relatively long-lived these by then non-standard vehicles were. So lots of scope for variety in these meat trains.

 

 

Simon

[great northern]

The fish again this morning, a bit further on, and rather too close to the photographer for comfort.

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

On 26/06/2021 at 10:25, BMacdermott said:

Hello Gilbert & everyone

 

I am intrigued by the 10.05am Aberdeen to King's Cross Meat train.

 

Looking at the Summer 1961 Freight WTT, the train was booked passing Peterborough at 10.11pm. That rules out most photographic possibilities there, but - in late June - there would have been plenty farther north and at Aberdeen itself.

 

So...does anyone know of any photos?

 

Secondly, I'm sure many here will be fully aware of the accident between Huntingdon and Peterborough on 15 December 1961. The Meat Train was involved and the Reporting Officer stated that it comprised 25 Vans. Note that he used the term 'vans', whereas Containers that were in one of the other trains were specifically noted as 'containers'.

 

The WTT notes that the formation of the Meat Train was in the Freight Trains Marshalling Book.

 

If we get no joy with photos or Marshalling Books from this appeal, I will start a new RMweb thread to see if that results in any.

 

Brian

I shall follow this debate with interest. I can’t add much to the container vs van debate, but I rather hope that the train would be a mixture - it would make it cheaper to model! My own goods WTT is from 1953 and shows a down meat empties at 1435 from KX to Haymarket which I assume is the return working and more likely to have been photographed in daylight.

 

I cheat and represent this train by putting a meat van and some insulated containers on the front of my Scotch Goods rake as shown here.

 

[BMacdermott]

Thanks for this. As you probably know, I have only recently 'become aware' of your thread (which is very enjoyable to read).

 

I couldn't find any corresponding return Meat Empties in the 1961 Freight WTT, although there are a number of 'anonymous empty trains' booked northbound.

 

The Railscot photo earlier clearly shows some BM Fresh Meat Containers.

 

Brian

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, BMacdermott said:

Thanks for this. As you probably know, I have only recently 'become aware' of your thread (which is very enjoyable to read).

 

I couldn't find any corresponding return Meat Empties in the 1961 Freight WTT, although there are a number of 'anonymous empty trains' booked northbound.

 

The Railscot photo earlier clearly shows some BM Fresh Meat Containers.

 

Brian

Thanks Brian,

 

I suspect that the returns were much lower priority so went on general Class C services. The fact that my WTT just has it going to Haymarket rather than all the way to Aberdeen suggests that it was a less rapid journey.

 

Andy

[Mallard60022]

7 hours ago, great northern said:

The fish again this morning, a bit further on, and rather too close to the photographer for comfort.

 

 

That photo has a whiff of dead Haddock about it.

[great northern]

Next is the morning parliamentary from Doncaster, and a New England B1 in typical condition.

 

 

[BMacdermott]

00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.7: Freight Stock – Bogie, plus Palbrick for consistency

 

Hello everyone

 

Welcome to the seventh in our series of Mini-Polls concerning rolling stock that has at least some connection with Peterborough North. I am running the Mini-Polls on behalf of Gilbert.

 

You will find ‘an indication’ of what we are looking at via the suggested example diagrams in parentheses as it is often impossible to be ‘deadly precise’ with a 1-line descriptor. We take the view that ‘if it looks like a Trolley Wagon, it probably is a Trolley Wagon or a member of the same family’. Recent past experience is showing that makers are ‘tooling up’ to make as many variants as they can for any new model.

 

The Quint D and Plate are ‘a case in point’. They are combined in the list below because Tatlow, on page 83 of his book LNER Wagons, An Illustrated Overview, states that the underframe and bogies are identical.

 

Although the Palbrick is 4-wheel, I have included it here for ‘consistency’ with the Bogie Brick Wagon.

 

By coincidence, the Borail wagon was announced by Revolution Trains on Friday. For the purpose of this Mini-Poll, please still vote for it if you would have done so before this announcement.

 

You can submit your wishes here, on the thread, as usual, or PM me direct if you prefer the ‘secret ballot’ method.

 

If you vote on the thread, please feel free to explain why you have chosen your selection – hopefully, that will promote some interesting debates – but please do not take it as an excuse to start up the old chestnut of ‘kits vs RTR’!

 

Here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the ten items listed plus a response to item 11 (if you so wish)

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR at ‘affordable prices’.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7, 9, 10 – with comments and explanations following.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

Bricks

1   BR Palbrick Wagon – 4-wheel (BR Diag.1/021 of 1954)

2   Bogie Brick Wagon (LNER 1921)

 

Chemicals

3   Bogie Chemicals Tank Wagon (Caustic Soda, Liquid Chlorine, Nitric Acid etc)

4   Bogie Sulphate Wagon (LNER 1930)

 

Bolsters

5   Bogie Bolster D Wagon 42-ton (LNER and BR Diags.1/470, 1/472, 1/476, 1/478, 1/484 of 1949-61)

6   Bogie Bolster Quint D/Plate Wagon 42-ton (LNER and BR Diag.1/490 etc of 1949)

7   Bogie Rail Wagon 50-ton – Borail (Diag.1/482 etc of 1959)

 

Trolleys

8   Bogie Trolley Wagon – Flatrol (eg LNER DD of 1929, BR Diag2/511 of 1949)

9   Bogie Trolley Wagon – Trestrol (eg LNER Trestrol A, BR Diags.2/680 & 682 of 1951/3)

10 Bogie Trolley Wagon – Weltrol (eg LNER Weltrol P, BR Diag.2/730 etc of 1949)

 

11 Your specific Chemical Tank Wagons

There are multitudes of Chemical Tank Wagons, so please feel free to state any specifics you would like to see made.

 

Get your thinking caps on and get voting! I will acknowledge receipt of your vote via the ‘Thx’ tick box.

 

You have until 17.00 on Thursday 24 June. However, I will stop earlier and advise if votes reach 50. I will present the results during the day on Friday 25 June.

 

I look forward to your selections and comments!

 

Brian

(Note: These are ‘informal Polls for fun’ on Gilbert’s thread only and neither The 00 Wishlist Poll Team nor RMweb are specifically involved, apart from me in my ‘personal capacity’.)

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

My votes are: 1 Palbrick; 2 Bogie Brick; 6 Quint D/Plate; 7 Borail; 8 Flatrol; 9 Trestrol; 10 Weltrol.

 

Although the Palbrick was designed for bricks, I have seen at least one photo where the vehicles are carrying the contents of the average skip! I don’t have room for a full Brick Train as such but would certainly have one or two of the bogie types ‘running empty’.

 

Of the bolster types, the Quint D and possible ‘spin off’ of Bogie Plate Wagon really appeal to me. As noted, Revolution Trains announced the BR Borail (and later derivatives) on Friday and I hope to place an order as soon as the books are open, which I gather will be very soon.

 

All the Trolleys appeal to me but I am aware that they will probably only be of full use to ‘main line modellers’. They all have a strong visual presence and could possibly be offered with maybe 3D printed loads.

 

If I was pushed for some focus, then I’d go for the LNER Flatrol DD of 1929 or the 6-wheel bogie Weltrol P – both ‘real muscle wagons’, with their longitudinal timber baulks. (See pages 115 & 116 of Peter Tatlow’s book, LNER Wagons, An Illustrated Overview).

 

Brian