Peterborough North

[Oldddudders]

In my era, a decade after your setting for PN, and of course on another Region, Q trains were simply 'runs as required', and they included departmental trains for civils and mechanicals. As Steve P has pointed out, they would be powered and crewed. Trains running in multiple portions were certainly a feature of holiday times, particularly Saturdays, but you seem to think there was limited demand, even then, from Gainsborough. 

 

However, there would be a back-working from London, no doubt, so having the option to get a train and crew into KX at a good hour on a Saturday, to cover outbound demand, does sound feasible. 

[Flying Fox 34F]

Just been having a look a Gainsborough Lea Road as it once was.  A typical two track wayside station, but with addition of a riverside yard.  Not your typical starting point for an express!

The Q path may exist merely as a convenient starting point for a train to Kings Cross.  The decision to run the train or not was probably based on prior ticket sales at Gainsborough and other locations along its route.  The locomotive, stock and crew could be worked from either Retford or Doncaster, dependent on availability.  It just causes Control and the Signalboxes issues finding a gap to get the train to Gainsborough.

One question, was this train booked along the GN/GE via Sleaford and Spalding or the direct line to Grantham?

 

Paul

 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Just been having a look a Gainsborough Lea Road as it once was.  A typical two track wayside station, but with addition of a riverside yard.  Not your typical starting point for an express!

The Q path may exist merely as a convenient starting point for a train to Kings Cross.  The decision to run the train or not was probably based on prior ticket sales at Gainsborough and other locations along its route.  The locomotive, stock and crew could be worked from either Retford or Doncaster, dependent on availability.  It just causes Control and the Signalboxes issues finding a gap to get the train to Gainsborough.

One question, was this train booked along the GN/GE via Sleaford and Spalding or the direct line to Grantham?

 

Paul

 

This gets more complicated Paul. There were two possibilities. If the train ran from Gainsborough it joined the main line at Barkston Sth junction, which means it came via the GN/GE to Lincoln, and thence to Grantham, arriving at 8.10am. Five minute stop there, and thence to PN, arriving 8.51. However, there is also a path, same reporting number, 771, which shows it starting at Newark Northgate, and arriving Grantham 8.12. I know that that is on weekdays a three coach rake again reporting number 771, which at Grantham is tacked on to the 7.38 Up Nottingham 777 Up, and then runs to KX.

 

OK so far? Well, when 771 starts from Newark, it is shown as Q from Grantham to KX, made up as SK SK CK BSK. It arrives at Grantham at 8.03, leaves at 8.12 and arrives PN at 8.51. If starting from Gainsborough it is shown as 12 cars, 8 SK 2 CK and 2 BSK. Arrive Grantham 8.10 and leaves at 8.15, also arriving PN at 8.51. From PN the two are bracketted as one train, leaving 8.54. So what does all that mean?  The WTT shows 12 cars arriving KX, so it can't be that the Newark 4 are attached to the Gainsborough 12 either at Grantham or PN, but there is nothing to show the Newark portion running to KX separately. I am baffled.

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Just been having a look a Gainsborough Lea Road as it once was.  A typical two track wayside station, but with addition of a riverside yard.  Not your typical starting point for an express!

The Q path may exist merely as a convenient starting point for a train to Kings Cross.  The decision to run the train or not was probably based on prior ticket sales at Gainsborough and other locations along its route.  The locomotive, stock and crew could be worked from either Retford or Doncaster, dependent on availability.  It just causes Control and the Signalboxes issues finding a gap to get the train to Gainsborough.

One question, was this train booked along the GN/GE via Sleaford and Spalding or the direct line to Grantham?

 

Paul

 

This gets more complicated Paul. There were two possibilities. If the train ran from Gainsborough it joined the main line at Barkston Sth junction, which means it came via the GN/GE to Lincoln, and thence to Grantham, arriving at 8.10am. Five minute stop there, and thence to PN, arriving 8.51. However, there is also a path, same reporting number, 771, which shows it starting at Newark Northgate, and arriving Grantham 8.12. I know that that is on weekdays a three coach rake again reporting number 771, which at Grantham is tacked on to the 7.38 Up Nottingham 777 Up, and then runs to KX.

 

OK so far? Well, when 771 starts from Newark, it is shown as Q from Grantham to KX, made up as SK SK CK BSK. It arrives at Grantham at 8.03, leaves at 8.12 and arrives PN at 8.51. If starting from Gainsborough it is shown as 12 cars, 8 SK 2 CK and 2 BSK. Arrive Grantham 8.10 and leaves at 8.15, also arriving PN at 8.51. From PN the two are bracketted as one train, leaving 8.54. So what does all that mean?  The WTT shows 12 cars arriving KX, so it can't be that the Newark 4 are attached to the Gainsborough 12 either at Grantham or PN, but there is nothing to show the Newark portion running to KX separately. I am baffled.

[Flying Fox 34F]

The formation from Gainsborough suits a service meant for Holidaymakers from Gainsborough and Lincoln.  The alternative from Newark may be provided, if the service from Gainsborough doesn’t run, to mop up passengers from Grantham and Peterborough.

More research required I suspect.

 

Paul

 

[Oldddudders]

Let me try to provide a further view, by example. In my time there was an 08.25 SX Woking - New Cross Gate stone train. But it was also a Q path from Redhill to Tonbridge, and a Q path from Redhill to Three Bridges. So the train ran most days to NXG, but if required by the exigencies of the CCE stone programme, could be diverted at Redhill to either of the other locations. 

 

In Gilbert's example, a Q path has been provided from Grantham to KX, but the feeds into that path are from either Newark or Gainsborough, or indeed neither and it does not run. 

[Mallard60022]

Lea Road was not and is not long enough to accommodate 12 Coaches for loading. I would have said 8 at most.

That's neither helpful or useful I suspect other than it ran to Lincoln with only part if the Train loaded.

Phil

[great northern]

3 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Let me try to provide a further view, by example. In my time there was an 08.25 SX Woking - New Cross Gate stone train. But it was also a Q path from Redhill to Tonbridge, and a Q path from Redhill to Three Bridges. So the train ran most days to NXG, but if required by the exigencies of the CCE stone programme, could be diverted at Redhill to either of the other locations. 

 

In Gilbert's example, a Q path has been provided from Grantham to KX, but the feeds into that path are from either Newark or Gainsborough, or indeed neither and it does not run. 

Thank you Ian. That makes it a great deal more simple. I shall run it from Gainsborough, as it gives me an opportunity to run a more unusual class of locomotive, or indeed something just ex works.

[great northern]

Aboyeur again, making slow progress past the remains of the Arcade.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

12 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

In my era, a decade after your setting for PN, and of course on another Region, Q trains were simply 'runs as required', and they included departmental trains for civils and mechanicals. As Steve P has pointed out, they would be powered and crewed. Trains running in multiple portions were certainly a feature of holiday times, particularly Saturdays, but you seem to think there was limited demand, even then, from Gainsborough. 

 

However, there would be a back-working from London, no doubt, so having the option to get a train and crew into KX at a good hour on a Saturday, to cover outbound demand, does sound feasible. 

You've highlighted the key feature of Q trains, which is that they were pre-planned and existed in the timetable, stock and crew rosters even though they may not have run. Another near-synonym is a "Conditional" service.

 

Unplanned moves were made through Control orders (other terminology may have been used at different times in different places).

[great northern]

Melton's ten minute wait is over, and the final leg of the journey to Grantham begins.

 

 

[great northern]

15 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

Lea Road was not and is not long enough to accommodate 12 Coaches for loading. I would have said 8 at most.

That's neither helpful or useful I suspect other than it ran to Lincoln with only part if the Train loaded.

Phil

That would have been dealt with by drawing up though Phil. I well remember that at Lincoln Central in the 50s the Harwich- Liverpool boat train on its morning southbound run would quite often be too long to fit into Platform 5, which would take 11 coaches, I think. There would then be some whistling and flag waving, and the loco would move on far enough for the rear coaches to be at the platform. There was even the odd occasion when the train was so long that it stood across High Street level crossing, which caused a lot of ire and hooting.

 

For those who don't know Lincoln, we had two level crossings on High street, within a quarter of a mile of each other. It was a fair bet that if one didn't get you, the other one would. No by pass then either, so it really was a big problem. The gates at Central are still there, but St Marks is sadly long gone. The Magistrates Court now stands across the old formation, and I once worked out that if I was prosecuting in some of the court rooms I would have been run over if I had stood there forty or so years before.

[great northern]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

You've highlighted the key feature of Q trains, which is that they were pre-planned and existed in the timetable, stock and crew rosters even though they may not have run. Another near-synonym is a "Conditional" service.

 

Unplanned moves were made through Control orders (other terminology may have been used at different times in different places).

Many thanks. Another piece fitted into the jigsaw. One forgets that back in the old days there was a commitment to provide trains for as many people as wanted to use them. I'm rather looking forward to the time when I have to do locomotive rosters for this sequence. That is going to get very interesting indeed, and I can already see how Kings Cross could run out of locos for departures by lunchtime on the busiest days.

[jazzer]

3 hours ago, great northern said:

Many thanks. Another piece fitted into the jigsaw. One forgets that back in the old days there was a commitment to provide trains for as many people as wanted to use them. I'm rather looking forward to the time when I have to do locomotive rosters for this sequence. That is going to get very interesting indeed, and I can already see how Kings Cross could run out of locos for departures by lunchtime on the busiest days.

 

Indeed Gilbert. It will be interesting to see what loco was rostered for this train. Presumably it would come from Doncaster,  but it seems highly unlikely they would have a Pacific or even a B1 available at peak periods, when there are already extra trains running. 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, jazzer said:

 

Indeed Gilbert. It will be interesting to see what loco was rostered for this train. Presumably it would come from Doncaster,  but it seems highly unlikely they would have a Pacific or even a B1 available at peak periods, when there are already extra trains running. 

Doncaster's Pacifics never seemed to be overworked, as far as I can recall, but I agree there would be a lot of stress in August, especially as there were apparently 40 Pacifics out of action in August 58.

 

Looking at the WTT, it seems that nearly all Class A trains were allowed between 87 and 95 minutes between KX and Peterborough on Saturdays, so it seems that it was accepted that some theoretically unsuitable motive power would have to be used. It looks to me as though all of the Skegness and Grimsby/Cleethorpes trains, of which there were 18 would have B1 haulage, as quite a lot of them didn't stop at PN, so no engine change possible on those, and even with the ones that did stop, paths for light engines would be hard to find, I suspect. I know there were two weekday trains with B1s rostered, but that is a far cry from nine, and with not the same amount of timetable pressure.

 

From what I've read, the timetable soon went out of the window on most summer Saturdays anyway.

[great northern]

He's at it again. More hopeful shooting into strong light.

 

 

Black and white just about saves it. It is sharp though.

[Mallard60022]

16 hours ago, great northern said:

Doncaster's Pacifics never seemed to be overworked, as far as I can recall, but I agree there would be a lot of stress in August, especially as there were apparently 40 Pacifics out of action in August 58.

 

Looking at the WTT, it seems that nearly all Class A trains were allowed between 87 and 95 minutes between KX and Peterborough on Saturdays, so it seems that it was accepted that some theoretically unsuitable motive power would have to be used. It looks to me as though all of the Skegness and Grimsby/Cleethorpes trains, of which there were 18 would have B1 haulage, as quite a lot of them didn't stop at PN, so no engine change possible on those, and even with the ones that did stop, paths for light engines would be hard to find, I suspect. I know there were two weekday trains with B1s rostered, but that is a far cry from nine, and with not the same amount of timetable pressure.

 

From what I've read, the timetable soon went out of the window on most summer Saturdays anyway.

Control and Bobbies ran Saturdays.

Have a look at Donny allocation for 58 as well as, perhaps, a Lincoln Engine. Retford had some Bq1s that were common and might have been nicked.

[great northern]

3 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Control and Bobbies ran Saturdays.

Have a look at Donny allocation for 58 as well as, perhaps, a Lincoln Engine. Retford had some Bq1s that were common and might have been nicked.

I have fond memories of those Retford B1s, 61208/11/12/13 and 31. One was always station pilot, and it, or perhaps another one, went off with churns on the buffer beam to take water to outlying signal boxes. They sometimes had to take over expresses from poorly Pacifics too. There will definitely be reasons for some Lincoln B1s to be borrowed too.

[great northern]

Speaking of B1s, here is regular engine 61282 on the 1.12pm to KX.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

20 minutes ago, great northern said:

I have fond memories of those Retford B1s, 61208/11/12/13 and 31. One was always station pilot, and it, or perhaps another one, went off with churns on the buffer beam to take water to outlying signal boxes. They sometimes had to take over expresses from poorly Pacifics too. There will definitely be reasons for some Lincoln B1s to be borrowed too.

What you can pretend is that the loco as far as Lincoln was something weird and then changed to a "Scrap it!" one!  Or, of course the allocated Loco was ailing and had to have a Loco change at PN! Any old tale will do! Presumably it had to be a fast Engine, unless it went via Ely or some weird route?

P

Edited August 9, 2021 by Mallard60022

[great northern]

2 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

What you can pretend is that the loco as far as Lincoln was something weird and then changed to a "Scrap it!" one!  Or, of course the allocated Loco was ailing and had to have a Loco change at PN! Any old tale will do! Presumably it had to be a fast Engine, unless it went via Ely or some weird route?

P

I suspect that the effects are most likely to be felt further down the line. If, for example, all Immingham's B1s are occupied taking happy holidaymakers to and from Skegness, what motive power will have to be dredged up to handle the locals which they usually monopolise?

 

Which would be the happiest Skeggy passengers, those on the way there, or those on the way back?

[Oldddudders]

2 hours ago, great northern said:

Which would be the happiest Skeggy passengers, those on the way there, or those on the way back?

Those on the way back had been suitably 'braced' for the rigours of the journey. 

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Oldddudders said:

Those on the way back had been suitably 'braced' for the rigours of the journey. 

Which would not have been too bad, as they would be in corridor coaches with facilities. Contrast that with the day visitors from Nottingham or Leicester, who would also have imbibed considerably, but not wisely, as their homeward journey would be in Quad Arts borrowed from London for the weekend. The kids buckets found another use apart from making sand castles, and a wise traveller did not put his head out of the window while the train was in motion.

[Flying Fox 34F]

4 hours ago, great northern said:

 

 

Which would be the happiest Skeggy passengers, those on the way there, or those on the way back?

Based on what I see of those travelling back and forth to Skeg, It is still the same.  You just cannot tell if they are happy to go or to come back?

 

Paul

[great northern]

Time for more coal, and another 9F, to plod past North box on the way to Ferme Rark.