Peterborough North

[great northern]

A warm late summer evening, blue sky with just a few fluffy clouds, and a well turned out locomotive to admire. What more could one ask?

 

 

[Anthony]

Wonderful, inspiring images as ever, Gilbert!

[great northern]

In comes the White Rose, with Doncaster A1 King's Courier at the head.

 

 

[great northern]

I couldn't make up my mind whether to do this shot as last night, or to crop it even more. So, I did both, and you can decide which you prefer.

 

 

[Oldddudders]

I think they both sit up and work. The cropped view gives us the loco, intentional warts and all, the wider view puts in context. 

[great northern]

Our last look at 60144 is of the driver's side, taken from the ramp of the Up platform.

 

 

[great northern]

That Ivatt now gets the chance to leave, and this time the coaches can actually be seen.

 

 

[jazzer]

On 16/10/2021 at 09:31, great northern said:

A warm late summer evening, blue sky with just a few fluffy clouds, and a well turned out locomotive to admire. What more could one ask?

 

 

As I big fan of the B1’s the really is nothing more to ask as far as I am concerned, except perhaps a time machine. 

 

Few random thoughts though that I hope will be of interest to some.

 

The B1’ s were normally allowed 10 minutes longer non stop KX- Peterborough than the best Pacific timings ( 90 minutes against 80 minutes over the 76.25 miles) . I seem to recall reading somewhere that a B1 could match a Pacific as far as Hatfield or Hitchin but the Pacific’s were far better after that. After a six minute stop at PN this train still had another 81 miles to go would take almost another two and half hours to get to Cleethorpes , calling at Spalding , Boston, Firsby , Alford, Louth and Grimsby and would spend a total of almost half an hour in station time on top of the six minutes it had already spent in Peterborough, thus adding around 35 minutes to actual travelling time. What  would it be carrying for a dead-and-alive place like Firsby, for example , that would require a six minute stop ? I wonder whether these long stops are a bit like some of the long stops on parts of the Southern Region for example, where time was allowed decades earlier to load/ unload things like milk churns but it didn’t occur to anyone to take them out of the timetable when no longer necessary.

 

Anyway , the loco and stock in the picture seems very likely to have been the return of the 6.40am Grimsby - KX Buffet car express, and if so a round trip of 308 miles in a day is pretty good utilisation  for a narrow fire box 4-6-0. 
 

 

 

[Flying Fox 34F]

3 hours ago, jazzer said:

What  would it be carrying for a dead-and-alive place like Firsby, for example , that would require a six minute stop ? I wonder whether these long stops are a bit like some of the long stops on parts of the Southern Region for example, where time was allowed decades earlier to load/ unload things like milk churns but it didn’t occur to anyone to take them out of the timetable when no longer necessary 
 

 

 

Jazzer,

 

Firsby is the back of beyond, but your forgetting connections for Thorpe Culvert, Wainfleet, Havenhouse and Skegness!

 

Paul

[great northern]

The Ivatt hasn't far to go before it branches off from the main line, which is good, as the Tees Tyne Pullman is on its way.

 

 

[LNER4479]

13 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

Jazzer,

 

Firsby is the back of beyond, but your forgetting connections for Thorpe Culvert, Wainfleet, Havenhouse and Skegness!

 

Paul

Not forgetting connection for stations to Lincoln ... Midville, Stickney, New Bolingbroke, Tumby Woodside, Coningsby ... My Dad once went that way to do his National Service (RAF) square bashing at Coningsby before being posted to RAF Wainfleet.

[great northern]

Golden Fleece and the Pullman now about to emerge into daylight, and get ready to accelerate away again.

 

 

[great northern]

17 hours ago, jazzer said:

As I big fan of the B1’s the really is nothing more to ask as far as I am concerned, except perhaps a time machine. 

 

Few random thoughts though that I hope will be of interest to some.

 

The B1’ s were normally allowed 10 minutes longer non stop KX- Peterborough than the best Pacific timings ( 90 minutes against 80 minutes over the 76.25 miles) . I seem to recall reading somewhere that a B1 could match a Pacific as far as Hatfield or Hitchin but the Pacific’s were far better after that. After a six minute stop at PN this train still had another 81 miles to go would take almost another two and half hours to get to Cleethorpes , calling at Spalding , Boston, Firsby , Alford, Louth and Grimsby and would spend a total of almost half an hour in station time on top of the six minutes it had already spent in Peterborough, thus adding around 35 minutes to actual travelling time. What  would it be carrying for a dead-and-alive place like Firsby, for example , that would require a six minute stop ? I wonder whether these long stops are a bit like some of the long stops on parts of the Southern Region for example, where time was allowed decades earlier to load/ unload things like milk churns but it didn’t occur to anyone to take them out of the timetable when no longer necessary.

 

Anyway , the loco and stock in the picture seems very likely to have been the return of the 6.40am Grimsby - KX Buffet car express, and if so a round trip of 308 miles in a day is pretty good utilisation  for a narrow fire box 4-6-0. 
 

 

 

I think we need to remember that the whole pace of life was so much slower then, particularly in rural areas such as those traversed by the E. Lincs railway. I doubt that many people chased around to save a couple of minutes as we are conditioned to do nowadays.

 

The timetable though is interesting. The summer 1957 public timetable shows the 4.05 Cleethorpes stopping as follows:-  Spalding 4 minutes, Boston 5 minutes, Firsby 6 minutes, and Louth just 3 minutes. The only one showing a connecting service was Firsby, for Skeggy of course, so perhaps that was considered an operational neccesity. Why otherwise would it stop for twice as long as at Louth, a much more significant place, in rural Lincs terms anyway? The 6.20 service called at Spalding 4 minutes, Boston 5, Firsby 4, again with Skeggy connection shown, and Louth for 4. Alford got only one minute stops for both trains. Does that suggest that there was in fact some real operational reason for the length of stops at Firsby?

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Not forgetting connection for stations to Lincoln ... Midville, Stickney, New Bolingbroke, Tumby Woodside, Coningsby ... My Dad once went that way to do his National Service (RAF) square bashing at Coningsby before being posted to RAF Wainfleet.

"On the main line and the goods siding

The grass grows high

At Dogdyke, Tumby Woodside and Trouble House Halt..."

[LNER4479]

That's the one!

[jazzer]

5 hours ago, great northern said:

I think we need to remember that the whole pace of life was so much slower then, particularly in rural areas such as those traversed by the E. Lincs railway. I doubt that many people chased around to save a couple of minutes as we are conditioned to do nowadays.

 

The timetable though is interesting. The summer 1957 public timetable shows the 4.05 Cleethorpes stopping as follows:-  Spalding 4 minutes, Boston 5 minutes, Firsby 6 minutes, and Louth just 3 minutes. The only one showing a connecting service was Firsby, for Skeggy of course, so perhaps that was considered an operational neccesity. Why otherwise would it stop for twice as long as at Louth, a much more significant place, in rural Lincs terms anyway? The 6.20 service called at Spalding 4 minutes, Boston 5, Firsby 4, again with Skeggy connection shown, and Louth for 4. Alford got only one minute stops for both trains. Does that suggest that there was in fact some real operational reason for the length of stops at Firsby?

I had overlooked the Skegness connection , but I think we will never know the real answer. However I’ve checked the connections an curiously both the  Cleethorpes Express and the Skeggy connection were both timed to arrive at 7.04 and leave at 7.10  so waiting for connections wouldn’t be the reason. However , whatever the reason was it still doesn’t explain the other long stops on the journey, especially when one considers something like the ACE was only allowed five minutes at Salisbury to take on 4000 gallons of water, detach a coach and have a wheel tapper do his work.

 

Life certainly was a slower pace in the 1950’s but so was management. The BTC was known to be top heavy in bureaucracy and Sir Brian Robertson was a military man rather than either  a railway man or an economist and it was , of course only when Beeching came along that the railways began to change the outdated practices designed for a previous era including timetables. I actually wanted to go onto the railways doing timetables when I left school but with hindsight I’m glad I didn’t !

 

However, none of this detracts from my original point that B1’s were great looking, super locos . 

 

 

[Sandhole]

1 minute ago, jazzer said:

I had overlooked the Skegness connection , but I think we will never know the real answer. However I’ve checked the connections an curiously both the  Cleethorpes Express and the Skeggy connection were both timed to arrive at 7.04 and leave at 7.10  so waiting for connections wouldn’t be the reason. However , whatever the reason was it still doesn’t explain the other long stops on the journey, especially when one considers something like the ACE was only allowed five minutes at Salisbury to take on 4000 gallons of water, detach a coach and have a wheel tapper do his work.

 

Life certainly was a slower pace in the 1950’s but so was management. The BTC was known to be top heavy in bureaucracy and Sir Brian Robertson was a military man rather than either  a railway man or an economist and it was , of course only when Beeching came along that the railways began to change the outdated practices designed for a previous era including timetables. I actually wanted to go onto the railways doing timetables when I left school but with hindsight I’m glad I didn’t !

 

However, none of this detracts from my original point that B1’s were great looking, super locos . 

 

 

B1's were and are an aesthetically pleasing loco. They have that Thompson touch of clean class. All his great designs have it, B1s, K1s and L1s.
I wonder if some of the rough riding problems came about because of the time they were built. After WW2 the railways needed strong reliable locos fast and the LNER had the Gresley legacy to contend with, a bit like the SNCF battling with the Chapleon legacy.
These locos were built quickly and, possibly suffered.
I know drivers up here in the forgotten Central Division liked the B1s, the L1s didn't do too badly either.
The lads in the North East loved the K1s. We had them around in Manchester too.
I am perfectly prepared to be shot down by the LNER experts on this superb thread.
I will post my hybrid liveried Chamossaire when I've done it, if Gilbert says OK.
Regards, as always,
Chris.

[Flying Fox 34F]

The 6 minute stop may have been due to Parcels and Small items sent by Passenger train being offloaded and others loaded?

 

Paul

[great northern]

1 hour ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

The 6 minute stop may have been due to Parcels and Small items sent by Passenger train being offloaded and others loaded?

 

Paul

I've now looked at the Up trains too. The 6.51 Grimsby allowances were:- 2 minutes at Louth, Willoughby, Firsby and Spalding, with only Boston getting 5 minutes.  The 8.48 Cleethorpes allowed Louth 2, Firsby 5 Boston 5 and Spalding 4.

 

Surely there must be operational reasons for these differences? Why dwell for longer if it wasn't necessary? The other thing that occurs to me is a practical one. Down trains stopping at Firsby were separated from the far side of the island platform, and passengers had to alight and get across the footbridge to access the Skegness connection, which left just two minutes after the Grimsby train. Was the time needed to get across there by some passengers taken into account? On the Up trains the stopping times could be less, as the distance from the branch train to the main was considerably less too. Or is that a load of rubbish? Back then trains were held to allow connections, unlike today, so perhaps the needs of elderly or infirm passengers were too.

[jazzer]

9 minutes ago, great northern said:

I've now looked at the Up trains too. The 6.51 Grimsby allowances were:- 2 minutes at Louth, Willoughby, Firsby and Spalding, with only Boston getting 5 minutes.  The 8.48 Cleethorpes allowed Louth 2, Firsby 5 Boston 5 and Spalding 4.

 

Surely there must be operational reasons for these differences? Why dwell for longer if it wasn't necessary? The other thing that occurs to me is a practical one. Down trains stopping at Firsby were separated from the far side of the island platform, and passengers had to alight and get across the footbridge to access the Skegness connection, which left just two minutes after the Grimsby train. Was the time needed to get across there by some passengers taken into account? On the Up trains the stopping times could be less, as the distance from the branch train to the main was considerably less too. Or is that a load of rubbish? Back then trains were held to allow connections, unlike today, so perhaps the needs of elderly or infirm passengers were too.

 

Even among the Down trains the Cleethorpes seems to have had a longer stop than most . So back to my first point if If was a genuine operational reason that was so significant that it was written into the daily time table what was it ? I can understand a few passengers wanting the Skeggey connection but that would only need the branch train to be held. I presume any news papers would go on the later express or perhaps a morning newspaper train. As you said it was a slower pace of life then and it just intrigues me what would require a long stop at that time of the evening?  We will never know of course but it’s just part of the railway operation that fascinates me.

[jazzer]

3 hours ago, Sandhole said:

B1's were and are an aesthetically pleasing loco. They have that Thompson touch of clean class. All his great designs have it, B1s, K1s and L1s.
I wonder if some of the rough riding problems came about because of the time they were built. After WW2 the railways needed strong reliable locos fast and the LNER had the Gresley legacy to contend with, a bit like the SNCF battling with the Chapleon legacy.
These locos were built quickly and, possibly suffered.
I know drivers up here in the forgotten Central Division liked the B1s, the L1s didn't do too badly either.
The lads in the North East loved the K1s. We had them around in Manchester too.
I am perfectly prepared to be shot down by the LNER experts on this superb thread.
I will post my hybrid liveried Chamossaire when I've done it, if Gilbert says OK.
Regards, as always,
Chris.

I agree. In addition, to your points the first ones were designed and built under the very strict costs constraints of WW2 and had to operate on the poor quality coal of the era.  Of course it has to be remembered that the B17’ s also got a bit rough when the mileage increased. I think the rough riding aspect of the B1’s probably got a a bit exaggerated. A two cylinder 4-6-0 is always likely to be more uncomfortable than a 3 cylinder 4-6-0. 

[great northern]

Back now to the view from Spital Bridge, which seems to be a favourite for many people.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

I recently attended a very interesting talk regarding the closure of the East Lincolnshire line and the economics behind the decision to do so. Most of the year there was very little travel between the stations on the line, most tickets were sold at Grimsby or Boston for through journeys to London. Most people remember summer Saturday's with trains coming from the East Midlands to Skeggy and Nottingham-on-Sea, whoops I mean Mablethorpe making things look busy, even that was on decline with package holidays and car ownership. There was very little freight generated from the intermediate stations and little through traffic. The main freight traffic was from the grain silo at Louth (now Aldi supermarket) and Grimsby. That was money coming in.

 

Just to get an idea of money going out there were over 60 manned level crossings on the mainline and branch lines. Where I live there were 5 in the village. Even the large number of redundancies when the pay trains were introduced didn't help the loss the line was making.

 

As for the long station stops, most of the line was in the council district of East Linsey. If you live here you will know that there is two types of time, real time and "East Linsey why rush time".

[great northern]

And an alternative view from further along the bridge.

 

 

[great northern]

12 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

I recently attended a very interesting talk regarding the closure of the East Lincolnshire line and the economics behind the decision to do so. Most of the year there was very little travel between the stations on the line, most tickets were sold at Grimsby or Boston for through journeys to London. Most people remember summer Saturday's with trains coming from the East Midlands to Skeggy and Nottingham-on-Sea, whoops I mean Mablethorpe making things look busy, even that was on decline with package holidays and car ownership. There was very little freight generated from the intermediate stations and little through traffic. The main freight traffic was from the grain silo at Louth (now Aldi supermarket) and Grimsby. That was money coming in.

 

Just to get an idea of money going out there were over 60 manned level crossings on the mainline and branch lines. Where I live there were 5 in the village. Even the large number of redundancies when the pay trains were introduced didn't help the loss the line was making.

 

As for the long station stops, most of the line was in the council district of East Linsey. If you live here you will know that there is two types of time, real time and "East Linsey why rush time".

Yes, that puts things into perspective, and makes a very strong case for closure, provided of course that only economic factors were to be taken into account., and that only short term factors were to be looked at. The social elements were of course ignored.

 

I've read many times of local people being up in arms when their local railway was up for closure, even though they almost never made use of it. Should it be there as a matter of social need? So far as the E.Lincs is concerned, the closure of so many miles of main line, seems wrong to me, and I do wonder how well it might be used now, if still open. The branches to Spilsby and Bardney, and the Mablethorpe loop, would, I think, be a different matter, so Clive wouldn't be able to hop on his local for his trips to Louth, thus avoiding all those pesky cyclists. And tractors, don't forget the tractors.