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38 minutes ago, Pilgrim in France said:

Were the long stops for the Cleethorpes expresses because the platforms were too short to take the whole train in one go? I am sure I remember that happening and passengers at the rear told not to try and get out as the train would soon move forward to allow them to demount

 

Could be that; I remember that used to happen sometimes when expresses used to call at Huntingdon, for example.

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12 hours ago, Pilgrim in France said:

Were the long stops for the Cleethorpes expresses because the platforms were too short to take the whole train in one go? I am sure I remember that happening and passengers at the rear told not to try and get out as the train would soon move forward to allow them to demount

I think you may have found the answer. I do have a book devoted to Firsby station, so I'll see if there is information therein as to the length of the platforms.

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Sometimes patience is rewarded. My book was written by a gentleman who was brought up very close to the station, and knew it very well from the mid 1930s to closure. He describes a sequence of events on a typical day, and includes the following:- " The express is a long train, and it stops with the front part by the platform.... whistles sound, and the train draws forward to bring the rear half to the platform." "More shouts, whistles and arm waving bring the train to a halt. Yet again the staff shout their instructions to passengers, and now to the slamming of doors is added the sound of barrows trundled along, and the noise of mail and parcels being loaded and unloaded."

 

I don't think all that would happen in a couple of minutes. Firsby was also the junction for local mail and parcels, as well as passengers, and the author stresses that most, if not all trains had transfers taking place.

 

So, now we know. The book, by the way, is Firsby Portrait of a Country Junction by Gordon H Brown. Published 1994, so sadly no doubt long out of print, but it is a fascinating read.

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22 minutes ago, great northern said:

Sometimes patience is rewarded. My book was written by a gentleman who was brought up very close to the station, and knew it very well from the mid 1930s to closure. He describes a sequence of events on a typical day, and includes the following:- " The express is a long train, and it stops with the front part by the platform.... whistles sound, and the train draws forward to bring the rear half to the platform." "More shouts, whistles and arm waving bring the train to a halt. Yet again the staff shout their instructions to passengers, and now to the slamming of doors is added the sound of barrows trundled along, and the noise of mail and parcels being loaded and unloaded."

 

I don't think all that would happen in a couple of minutes. Firsby was also the junction for local mail and parcels, as well as passengers, and the author stresses that most, if not all trains had transfers taking place.

 

So, now we know. The book, by the way, is Firsby Portrait of a Country Junction by Gordon H Brown. Published 1994, so sadly no doubt long out of print, but it is a fascinating read.

According to Wikipedia all three platforms were 220 yards long , which would be about 12 coaches, if that is the correct length. You would know better than me the make composition of the Cleethorpes express in 1958 but I doubt whether it would be more than 8or 9 coaches which would comfortably fit in a 220yards  platform. The station was said to be at its peak in the 1920’s . So I wonder whether either the platforms were lengthened at some stage (possibly WW2) or train lengths shortened as traffic dropped off , and as in so many other cases nobody told the time tabling side, so nothing was changed.

 

Interestingly the 1960 timetable seems to allow a few extra minutes ( usually 4 or 5 ) for trains stopping at Huntingdon but as the station has been substantially rebuilt since then we don’t know the reason.

 

The only certainty in all this is that we are all quite mad in discussing why a train stopped for a certain time at a long since closed station 62 years ago !

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1 hour ago, great northern said:

I did look at Wikepedia too, but it is not famed for its accuracy, and what it said did not fit in with what I have seen or what Mr Brown says. My lawyer's brain won't let go of this, so I went back to the book to try to get a definitive result. I am going to post some images from the book, as I take the view that what we are discussing here counts as research. I will of course remove them if the owner of the copyright so wishes.

 

The Carriage working book for 1958 shows the normal Grimsby/Cleethorpes expresses as loading to 11 bogies, but photographs show that quite often parcels vans were added, and on summer Saturdays there could be 13 on. So to evidence.

 

First is a sketch plan from the book.

 

 

453510904_firsbyplan.jpg.e59dfae070a685aa8bd58b3f115d77fc.jpg2009633588_southendup.jpg.318220d5051bbab2d608814ed32a2021.jpg

Then a 1962 dated photo looking North. The far end of the Up platform can be seen, and even allowing for foreshortening there isn't room for many more coaches behind the two in view. How far from footbridge to level crossing, which incidentally prevented the possibility of extension to the South?

 

 

378720615_southenddown.jpg.b82437cc6c460ae86d9fe045dc84d1a9.jpg

Well, here's the opposite view. The WD is not far short of the footbridge, and almost none of what is behind the tender is in front of the barrow crossing.

 

 

954368081_northend.jpg.ee39b8dfd37c967b416de9ac4ce1442e.jpg

Here is the North end, again the date given is in the 1960's. End of Up platform in view, and the sidings and goods shed on the Down side look very similar to the plan. No evidence of extended platforms there. All that evidence strongly suggests to me that things remained the same post war as described by Mr Brown in his book. The book is 108 pages long, and he goes into considerable detail, including the changes that occurred between his boyhood and closure. I don't think he would have forgotten to include information like lengthening of platforms if it had happened. Result Wikepedia 0, Mr Brown 4. You can't beat reliable evidence.

 

Even for those who aren't bothered about this esoteric discussion, I hope that seeing a little of what Firsby Junction was like may be of interest.


Thanks Gilbert. I find these things fascinating and I have learned quite a lot of what Firsby Junction was like, in particular that lower picture shows what seems to be a very big goods shed for a line that apparently didn’t carry much freight  so it must have seen a good deal more traffic at on point..

 

Secondly I had no idea that a weekday evening service to  Cleethorpes would be loaded to 11 bogies plus vans, I would have thought 8 or 9.   For a  B1 to take something possibly we’ll in excess of 350 tons from KX to PN in an hour and 31 minutes, is an outstanding performance for a loco of that size and (presumably ) the KX crew as far as PN, only 11 minutes behind the best Pacific times. If there were thirteen coaches on a summer Saturday the train would probably be around 400 tons of more yet was still only allowed 91 minutes for the 76 miles to PN
 

The thing that most surprised me was that although the weekday and Sunday trains were shown in the timetable as Buffet car trains the busy Summer Saturday version is shown as Second class only but no Buffet car! 
 

Rather surprisingly the 13 coach Saturday version of the train is only allowed a 4 minute stop at Firsby which hardly seems long enough to stop then pull forward half a train length then stop again, although in those days the public timetable and working timetable were often different things. The Sunday train though was back to a 7 stop . 

 

 

 

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16 minutes ago, jazzer said:


Thanks Gilbert. I find these things fascinating and I have learned quite a lot of what Firsby Junction was like, in particular that lower picture shows what seems to be a very big goods shed for a line that apparently didn’t carry much freight  so it must have seen a good deal more traffic at on point..

 

Secondly I had no idea that a weekday evening service to  Cleethorpes would be loaded to 11 bogies plus vans, I would have thought 8 or 9.   For a  B1 to take something possibly we’ll in excess of 350 tons from KX to PN in an hour and 31 minutes, is an outstanding performance for a loco of that size and (presumably ) the KX crew as far as PN, only 11 minutes behind the best Pacific times. If there were thirteen coaches on a summer Saturday the train would probably be around 400 tons of more yet was still only allowed 91 minutes for the 76 miles to PN
 

The thing that most surprised me was that although the weekday and Sunday trains were shown in the timetable as Buffet car trains the busy Summer Saturday version is shown as Second class only but no Buffet car! 
 

Rather surprisingly the 13 coach Saturday version of the train is only allowed a 4 minute stop at Firsby which hardly seems long enough to stop then pull forward half a train length then stop again, although in those days the public timetable and working timetable were often different things. The Sunday train though was back to a 7 stop . 

 

 

 

Things had changed by the summer of 58, when there were three Down afternoon trains. The first left KX at 2.18pm, and was for Cleethorpes via Skegness, where it reversed! 12 on, 410 tons, and allowed 91 minutes non stop to PN. That had an RKB, which was in one of the weekday sets. The second one left at 3.52 and was for Cleethorpes. Again 12 on, 397 tons, 92 mins non stop to PN. It had an RF in the formation, but marked "to be locked, no dining service". That one only ran from 26th July to 30th August, but also when required on other weeks. The third was at 4.08pm, formed of a morning train from Skegness. 11 on, 365 tons, but marked not to exceed 420! as in fact all three were. 91 minutes allowed to PN. That contained an RMB, again marked to be locked.

 

The evening service left KX at 6.45, 11 on, 371 tons, not to exceed 385. It had an RB, not locked, and was allowed 93 mins to PN. That used the stock of one of the regular weekday trains. It has to be said that at the height of the summer Saturday service, everything, even the top expresses, was allowed 90 mins or slightly more to and from PN. Line occupancy did not allow anything faster, and it was usually rather slower. Finally, one at least of the weekday trains had Immingham men from Grimsby/Cleethorpes to Boston, but Boston men from there to KX and back. My uncle said that was his depot's proudest duty, but I don't know if he himself drove it.

 

I seem to be a mine of relatively useless information today.

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I’ve just been playing with the Side by Side maps website. Playing with measurement tool the total length of each platform is approximately 340 feet. Take off the ramps at each end and the useable length is 300 feet.  
It is quite correct that here we are researching and debating train operation at a Station that ceased to exist 51 years ago. 
 

Paul

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51 minutes ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

I’ve just been playing with the Side by Side maps website. Playing with measurement tool the total length of each platform is approximately 340 feet. Take off the ramps at each end and the useable length is 300 feet.  
It is quite correct that here we are researching and debating train operation at a Station that ceased to exist 51 years ago. 
 

Paul

Thank you Paul. I wouldn't have a clue how to do that, but it is another confirmation, I believe, that drawing up was necessary. Although to many people this would seem to be just wasting time, I've enjoyed it, and we have an answer to an intriguing question.

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On 21/10/2021 at 17:44, great northern said:

Things had changed by the summer of 58, when there were three Down afternoon trains. The first left KX at 2.18pm, and was for Cleethorpes via Skegness, where it reversed! 12 on, 410 tons, and allowed 91 minutes non stop to PN. That had an RKB, which was in one of the weekday sets. The second one left at 3.52 and was for Cleethorpes. Again 12 on, 397 tons, 92 mins non stop to PN. It had an RF in the formation, but marked "to be locked, no dining service". That one only ran from 26th July to 30th August, but also when required on other weeks. The third was at 4.08pm, formed of a morning train from Skegness. 11 on, 365 tons, but marked not to exceed 420! as in fact all three were. 91 minutes allowed to PN. That contained an RMB, again marked to be locked.

 

The evening service left KX at 6.45, 11 on, 371 tons, not to exceed 385. It had an RB, not locked, and was allowed 93 mins to PN. That used the stock of one of the regular weekday trains. It has to be said that at the height of the summer Saturday service, everything, even the top expresses, was allowed 90 mins or slightly more to and from PN. Line occupancy did not allow anything faster, and it was usually rather slower. Finally, one at least of the weekday trains had Immingham men from Grimsby/Cleethorpes to Boston, but Boston men from there to KX and back. My uncle said that was his depot's proudest duty, but I don't know if he himself drove it.

 

I seem to be a mine of relatively useless information today.

 

Your mine of sometimes interesting information has touched on something else now.  I have often pondered why Saturday services were a bit slower. It part it would be due to heavier loads but I never thought much about line occupancy which in part it must have been. However its interesting that in 1958 even the top expresses were allowed 90 minutes or more from KX to PN  on summer Saturdays. Of course in 1958 the widening and track quadrupling  on the Potters Bar-Hadley Wood-Greenwood tunnel section was still not complete and apart from the top expresses and specials  there were also  on average around 5-6  suburbans, Peterborough, and Cambridge stoppers an hour  to be taken through  the congested  double track section  in addition  things like the Scotch Goods..  By 1960 , when the new tunnels were open and the quadrupling was complete the summer Saturday non stop times from KX to PN  were around 5-7 minutes quicker than 1958. In fact the 1.18 KX Bradford , following the Heart of Midlothian, was by then running on its midweek timing of 80 minutes to PN .

 

 As for your uncles Boston men , I am not surprised Boston-KX and back was their proudest duty as it was  probably the one with the biggest mileage payment ! 122 miles each way !

 

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21 hours ago, jazzer said:

 

Your mine of sometimes interesting information has touched on something else now.  I have often pondered why Saturday services were a bit slower. It part it would be due to heavier loads but I never thought much about line occupancy which in part it must have been. However its interesting that in 1958 even the top expresses were allowed 90 minutes or more from KX to PN  on summer Saturdays. Of course in 1958 the widening and track quadrupling  on the Potters Bar-Hadley Wood-Greenwood tunnel section was still not complete and apart from the top expresses and specials  there were also  on average around 5-6  suburbans, Peterborough, and Cambridge stoppers an hour  to be taken through  the congested  double track section  in addition  things like the Scotch Goods..  By 1960 , when the new tunnels were open and the quadrupling was complete the summer Saturday non stop times from KX to PN  were around 5-7 minutes quicker than 1958. In fact the 1.18 KX Bradford , following the Heart of Midlothian, was by then running on its midweek timing of 80 minutes to PN .

 

 As for your uncles Boston men , I am not surprised Boston-KX and back was their proudest duty as it was  probably the one with the biggest mileage payment ! 122 miles each way !

 

I think it was just the sheer weight of traffic. 1958 summer WTT shows 53 main line departures from KX between 0800 and 1700. The Potters Bar widening was a factor of course, but think of all the other bottlenecks that existed too, PN being one of the worst. It only needed one service to get out of course for the knock on effects to become cumulative. Getting trains into KX was a nightmare as well, and we have to bear in mind that quite a lot of stock was turned around at KX very quickly to avoid ECS movements.

 

I'm trying to work out my Saturday timetable at present, and it is getting to be nigh on impossible, so what must it have been like for the real thing? I have only one platform for all arrivals from the north, which includes the M&GN and E.Lincs locals as well as expresses. To get a non stop past Platform 2 when occupied meant crossing to the Down side, running between the excursion platform and the slow, and then crossing back at Crescent Bridge. Main line blocked twice every time, and all to be done at a crawl too. A bit easier on the Down, where at least there were two platform faces, but still a problem. Few engine changes at PN for that reason, but that meant many more at Grantham, and there wasn't that much space there either. From what I've read, a lot of passengers spent a long time contemplating New England yards every Saturday, as trains queued block by block to get through the station, so no point in having faster schedules, which could never have been kept.

 

As to Boston, well I was only 14 when my Uncle Tom was taken by cancer, but even at that age I could sense the pride that he had in the job he did. He had been a driver for some years, but at Boston that meant spending a lot of time banging around on run down K2s, so it wasn't a glamorous job. I'm sure, as you say, the money was a factor, but Boston men in general were very pleased that they had at least one main line duty to KX, even if it wasn't on one of their own engines.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

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2 hours ago, great northern said:

 

 

As to Boston, well I was only 14 when my Uncle Tom was taken by cancer, but even at that age I could sense the pride that he had in the job he did. He had been a driver for some years, but at Boston that meant spending a lot of time banging around on run down K2s, so it wasn't a glamorous job. I'm sure, as you say, the money was a factor, but Boston men in general were very pleased that they had at least one main line duty to KX, even if it wasn't on one of their own engines.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   


I was being slightly facetious in referring to mileage payments but nevertheless a drivers basic wage of around £9 per week in 1958 was pretty low even by the standards of the time, so overtime or mileage was an important factor.  Although some enginemen had absolutely no interest in  the job , I think your uncle was typical of the pride the majority took. I have a video of the Buntingford  branch and all the old drivers interviewed are exactly the same and express the view that “ the job came first “ , and speak with great pride about it

Even the very end of steam we see, in the majority of photographs , drivers still wearing a collar and tie under their overalls. We read of many that would keep an old pair of dirty overalls to oil up then change into a clean pair to take the mainline express out .  
It is a fascinating side of life which sadly seems to have disappeared.

 

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