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great northern
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14 minutes ago, drmditch said:

 

Thank you for all the information and entertainment on this thread. I'm not competent or informed enough to comment on your scheduling and locomotive allocation and diagramming, but please can I ask about the position of the nearest luggage trolley?

 

Should it not be 'parked' parallel to the track, as with the ones behind?

Should be, but some of the prototype shots I have show them all over the place. This one probably just got a nudge, and I didn't notice.:)

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OK, after completion of chores, the morning has been spent proof reading, and practical trials, of the Saturday sequence. This involves looking at my preliminary sheets of loco allocations, adding number to slide, and writing it down in the permanent schedule book. Sheets of paper all over the place.

 

Then I walk upstairs, there are nineteen of them, rather steep, and featuring a right angle bend in the middle. Then duck under into railway room and programme the macro routes from the slide. Check if correct by running a coach round. If not correct, curse, work out what I did wrong, and put it right. Back downstairs, put up next slide, and do it all over again, and again and again.

 

After a while, thank goodness, the routing problems become fewer, and stair climbing less frequent. My fitness watch is most impressed, my back less so. After 50 slides therefore, we have agreed to stop for lunch.

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30 minutes ago, great northern said:

I have only three days supply of pictures left, so I'm hoping there will be some brightness soon. This morning, we see the other side of Kings Courier, after which it is back to the Powerpoint slides.

I'd be happy to see some of those PowerPoint slides...

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On 27/12/2021 at 18:29, LNER4479 said:

Most 8Ps around in the BR steam era could have made mincemeat of those whistling things. Overweight, under-powered lumps of future razor blades ...

 

The latest timetable machinations sound interesting!

I think the Whistling things give  an insight to the befuddled thinking of BR management in the 1950’s .

They knew as early as about 1951  that they would need a power unit of at least 2,500hp to show a significant improvement on Steam times and loading. The prototype Deltic was first up , LMR didn’t want  it but were told to use it , and then they still didn’t want so it was sent to theECML where it became the jewel in the crown later backed up by the class 47’s. BR and especially the LMR  lurched  into an order for 200 class largely untested 40’s . They do have a sort of charismatic look about them but as a power unit one wonders how they were ever ordered in large numbers.

One can at least say the Warships did some sterling work when used in multiple.

Almost brand new steam locos were sent to the scrap head to be replaced by something little or no better on performance.

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2 hours ago, jazzer said:

I think the Whistling things give  an insight to the befuddled thinking of BR management in the 1950’s .

They knew as early as about 1951  that they would need a power unit of at least 2,500hp to show a significant improvement on Steam times and loading. The prototype Deltic was first up , LMR didn’t want  it but were told to use it , and then they still didn’t want so it was sent to theECML where it became the jewel in the crown later backed up by the class 47’s. BR and especially the LMR  lurched  into an order for 200 class largely untested 40’s . They do have a sort of charismatic look about them but as a power unit one wonders how they were ever ordered in large numbers.

One can at least say the Warships did some sterling work when used in multiple.

Almost brand new steam locos were sent to the scrap head to be replaced by something little or no better on performance.

I think that’s missing the point, the main reason for dieselisation was to reduce costs rather than speed services up. I’m pretty sure the whistlers managed that  (once teething problems were sorted out). And I, for one, am very fond of them…but then I never saw steam in service.

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28 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Gilbert,

 

I’m surprised to see the Gresleys on 0800 KX-LDS. Is this now the Saturday timetable?

 

Andy

No, I haven't finished that yet, and it is scrambling my brain. The photos I'm showing now were taken on 12/12, and I relied on memory when doing the captions, a very dangerous thing to do. This was in fact the relief to the 0800, hence the Gresleys. The 0800 actually ran today, but won't be seen for a while.

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3 hours ago, jazzer said:

I think the Whistling things give  an insight to the befuddled thinking of BR management in the 1950’s .

They knew as early as about 1951  that they would need a power unit of at least 2,500hp to show a significant improvement on Steam times and loading. The prototype Deltic was first up , LMR didn’t want  it but were told to use it , and then they still didn’t want so it was sent to theECML where it became the jewel in the crown later backed up by the class 47’s. BR and especially the LMR  lurched  into an order for 200 class largely untested 40’s . They do have a sort of charismatic look about them but as a power unit one wonders how they were ever ordered in large numbers.

One can at least say the Warships did some sterling work when used in multiple.

Almost brand new steam locos were sent to the scrap head to be replaced by something little or no better on performance.

The thing that really gets to me is that the plan started out sensibly by ordering small numbers of what was on offer from various manufacturers, but then for some reason loads more were ordered before the prototypes had been properly evaluated. It seems that the rush to modernise, and the people pushing it who portrayed steam as ancient and inefficient, were directly responsible for the various very poor classes of diesel which were just an embarrassment.

 

My recollection of the D200s is that they were very quickly shown up as being no advance on steam, which on the ECML at least was still the prime mover until the Deltics arrived.

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45 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I think that’s missing the point, the main reason for dieselisation was to reduce costs rather than speed services up. I’m pretty sure the whistlers managed that  (once teething problems were sorted out). And I, for one, am very fond of them…but then I never saw steam in service.

The fanfare of publicity before they appeared claimed otherwise though Andy. They were supposed to transform everything, which they certainly didn't do, and whilst they took over somewhat when they first appeared, my recollection is that the Pacifics were still very much in the ascendency until the Deltics arrived.  Once they had seen what the first five they got could and could not do, Top shed didn't want any more. Gateshead got quite a few, and Haymarket a small batch, but they seemed to go out of favour quite quickly. York got five, and used one of them every day on the York-Yarmouth service as far as Lincoln, which had been the preserve of B1s and D49s for years, and latterly a Standard Class 5. One would have thought there would be more important work for them than that.

 

I have a bit of a soft spot for them too, as they had character, but the flagships of  modernisation they were not.

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In the 1967 traction report which recommended the withdrawal of many of the beloved Great Western Region's hydraulics the class 40 was the second most reliable class of locomotive. Second to the same company's class 20 and only just beating the class 37s. You can have the fastest class of loco or the one that will pull the heaviest load but if their reliability means you either don't run that service or you buy more locos than are needed as most are being fixed then an adequate and reliable loco class keeps the service running and earns money for less locos. BR got their monies worth out of the class 20s, 37s and 40s.

Edited by Clive Mortimore
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On 28/12/2021 at 13:10, great northern said:

OK, after completion of chores, the morning has been spent proof reading, and practical trials, of the Saturday sequence. This involves looking at my preliminary sheets of loco allocations, adding number to slide, and writing it down in the permanent schedule book. Sheets of paper all over the place.

 

Then I walk upstairs, there are nineteen of them, rather steep, and featuring a right angle bend in the middle. Then duck under into railway room and programme the macro routes from the slide. Check if correct by running a coach round. If not correct, curse, work out what I did wrong, and put it right. Back downstairs, put up next slide, and do it all over again, and again and again.

 

After a while, thank goodness, the routing problems become fewer, and stair climbing less frequent. My fitness watch is most impressed, my back less so. After 50 slides therefore, we have agreed to stop for lunch.

I’m guessing by slides you are talking about using PowerPoint, and having recently had my lap top upgraded and a new hard drive installed this is something nearing the top of my list to tackle.

 

I have reams of notes and thoughts for a loco and stock schedule for one of my layouts and it would be of great help if you could post a couple of pictures of your slide layout, so that I have what I’m guessing is a tried and tested system, or if this is something you’ve covered on here before refresh my memory as to where, because if I don’t write a note of something down at the time I see it,  it’s lost within 24 hours and that’s on a good day.

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On 29/12/2021 at 09:57, St Enodoc said:

I'd be happy to see some of those PowerPoint slides...

And I'd be happy to show some. However, I cannot find a way to get slides from the new Powerpoint to here, and I'm very reluctant indeed to risk messing up all the work I've done so far by experimenting with it. My computer knowledge really is stone age I'm afraid. I tried just clicking on a slide and copy, which seemed a sensible way to start, but I don't have a clue where it has been copied to, if indeed it has been copied at all.

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On 27/12/2021 at 18:29, LNER4479 said:

Most 8Ps around in the BR steam era could have made mincemeat of those whistling things. Overweight, under-powered lumps of future razor blades ...

 

22 hours ago, jazzer said:

I think the Whistling things give  an insight to the befuddled thinking of BR management in the 1950’s .

BR and especially the LMR  lurched into an order for 200 class largely untested 40’s. They do have a sort of charismatic look about them but as a power unit one wonders how they were ever ordered in large numbers.

 

It gets better than that -- part way through the production run, EE offered BR a revised engine, with IIRC about 2300hp. Would have made later production 40s approximately match the 44s (D1-10) for power. At no extra cost. BR ... turned that offer down.

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19 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I think that’s missing the point, the main reason for dieselisation was to reduce costs rather than speed services up. I’m pretty sure the whistlers managed that  (once teething problems were sorted out). And I, for one, am very fond of them…but then I never saw steam in service.

Yes, you are in part correct but you have to remember that in the 1950’s  the nationalised  railway came under the British Transport Commission so basically civil servants were calling the shots under the influence of politicians. It’s Chairman was Sir Brian Robertson, a military man with distinguished army service in two world wars but with very little experience of running a railway. There was also strong opposition from the road transport lobby who had a very powerful voice in Parliament.

The point of the 1955 Modernisation plan was indeed to save money but those in charge had no real idea how to go about it. They basically thought that if they set strict budgets the railways would somehow comply with them. The diesels promoted the modern image to the media but far, far, more money was wasted in other ways. The biggest folly was the construction of 30 new marshalling yards at a cost of £ 85 Million (nearly 2Billion in today’s money ) at time when wagon loads were decreasing and most were closed within a few years.  While these were being built little was being done to improve passenger services
Taking Gilbert’s point, 26 different classes of diesel locomotives were ordered, many before a prototype was even built , when 5,or 6 properly evaluated would have been sufficient . As a result breakdowns were frequent.

One WCML manager tells of an occasion they were warned that a culvert was in danger of collapse but his budget didn’t allow for it to be repaired. Eventually it did collapse causing more disruption to services than the cost of repairs. And so the befuddled thinking went on.

Personally I fail to see why the other regions should not have followed the example of the Southern and taken it all a little more slowly instead of going for the quick fix.

These examples all come from Christian Woolmar’s excellent book , “Fire and Steam “

 

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On 28/12/2021 at 22:07, great northern said:

Next in is the 8.00 KX-Leeds, Doncaster's A1 Kings Courier doing the honours.

 

 

1998181709_91441.JPG.47fe9f8c9dbfcf9a271acb92a6d65b9f.JPG

I did more of the sequence after lunch, far too much in fact. I can be a very silly old fool sometimes. That may be why I posted this before adding the picture. I thought I might get some new photos done, as the forecast said things were going to brighten up, but they didn't.

 

 

 

The figures make that shot, ruddy great!
Regards,
chris.

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2 hours ago, jazzer said:

Yes, you are in part correct but you have to remember that in the 1950’s  the nationalised  railway came under the British Transport Commission so basically civil servants were calling the shots under the influence of politicians. It’s Chairman was Sir Brian Robertson, a military man with distinguished army service in two world wars but with very little experience of running a railway. There was also strong opposition from the road transport lobby who had a very powerful voice in Parliament.

The point of the 1955 Modernisation plan was indeed to save money but those in charge had no real idea how to go about it. They basically thought that if they set strict budgets the railways would somehow comply with them. The diesels promoted the modern image to the media but far, far, more money was wasted in other ways. The biggest folly was the construction of 30 new marshalling yards at a cost of £ 85 Million (nearly 2Billion in today’s money ) at time when wagon loads were decreasing and most were closed within a few years.  While these were being built little was being done to improve passenger services
Taking Gilbert’s point, 26 different classes of diesel locomotives were ordered, many before a prototype was even built , when 5,or 6 properly evaluated would have been sufficient . As a result breakdowns were frequent.

One WCML manager tells of an occasion they were warned that a culvert was in danger of collapse but his budget didn’t allow for it to be repaired. Eventually it did collapse causing more disruption to services than the cost of repairs. And so the befuddled thinking went on.

Personally I fail to see why the other regions should not have followed the example of the Southern and taken it all a little more slowly instead of going for the quick fix.

These examples all come from Christian Woolmar’s excellent book , “Fire and Steam “

 

I suppose that the Southern's main income came from electric trains on  very crowded Commuter Services? Costs were reduced on the SR by decimating most of the services in the far WOE by 1964.

P

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 The sequence is complete. There will be defects to be ironed out, but I'm happy with the basic structure. I have to say it really was a mind scrambling task, but hopefully worthwhile. It must be fairly close to reality, as I found myself running out of locos for departures from KX at about 1300 hours. That is exactly what happened on the well reported occasion when Top Shed turned out a 9F for a lunchtime trip to Grantham, there being nothing else suitable and available, and Grantham sent it back on the return leg of the diagram, when it was recorded doing 90mph down Stoke Bank.

 

Unsurprisingly perhaps, given that BR did have access to rather more express passenger and V2 locomotives than I have managed to acquire, there have had to be a few bodges and cheats, but the sequence should take so long to run that you won't notice them.

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