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Hello everyone

 

Subsequent to our recent wagon discussions, I asked The Poll Team if they had any comments. I believe Chris Knowles-Thomas will reply directly here shortly, but John Lewis has asked me to post his notes below on his behalf.

 

Brian

 

Notes from John Lewis

 

I do not have figures for post-WW2, but c.1930 the number of PO wagons was approximately equal to the number of railway company owned ones, so you would be advised to buy/make a coal wagon every time you made/bought a company owned one, and I am sure this applied to a post-WW2 layout.

 

I think it is important to realise that there was no such thing as an ‘average railway’. An average is made up of (lots of) individual figures, some of which will differ wildly from the average (the 'outliers’). You have to consider what traffic flows you want to have on your railway and decide what wagons and coaches would be needed for it.

 

Having decided that, you ought to think about what would have been truly common user and what would belong to the pre-WW2 company that operated your railway. In BR days the coaches would be ones from the pre-Nationalisation company, except to which BR coaches had appeared (or if you want BR coaches). In certain cases, there might have been through coaches from other railways, which could complicate matters.

 

In the case of railway company wagons, I think the figures were something like:

5 x LMS

4 x LNER

3 x GWR

1.5 x SR.

 

But this would only really have applied pre-WW2 to common user wagons; vacuum fitted wagons in general were not common user and might have been expected to be most common on their owning company.

 

The majority of (ex-) railway owned wagons would have been ordinary opens followed by ordinary covered goods, plus whatever you wanted to cater for the traffic flows on your line. On and after 1939 things changed and all, except specialist wagons like oil and chemical tanks, were taken over by the Government, later by BR, and became common user. This included PO coal wagons which, as the war went on, started appearing anywhere in the country, a process that continued after the war.

 

If you are modelling this era. you also need to factor in the construction of 16-ton mineral wagons in place of PO coal wagons.

 

I hope this is of some use. The generalisations are rather crude!

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1 hour ago, great northern said:

Back to ground level for a better look at the Compound, which at this time was a Derby engine. It occurs to me that followers of the LMS might be able to help me here. I have read that the LMS was fond of five day cyclical workings which could take a locomotive a very long way from its home shed, and that the practice continued into BR days. Certainly that seems to be borne out by the photos I have seen of the power for the trains running past and through PN, which come from sheds like Derby and Burton on Trent, plus places even further afield, both the Birmingham sheds and even some Liverpool area engines.

 

The Eastern was much more parochial, East Lincs services, for example, being the preserve of New england or Immingham, so it would be interesting to learn more about these LMS workings. It might give me an excuse for more locos too.

 

 

1344662472_611572.JPG.59dfed316aac4caec9b85bb8b4806740.JPG

LMS = Lengthy Meandering Services Gilbert. Not a joke either. The West Midland area Sheds loco's seemed to get all over the place on X Country trains. I know of Bristol and Bath to the West and your way to the East. I am uncertain but I am sure there were workings to York?

Some of those very long Distance X Country services seem to survive today; Liverpool/ Norwich ?

Phil

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Posted (edited)

Hello everyone

 

Chris has asked me to post his initial comments on his behalf. More to follow, I believe.

 

Brian

 

Notes from Chris Knowles-Thomas

 

Firstly (notwithstanding the pre-1923 spec POs and BR single bolsters), your Mini-Poll No.4 was largely orientated to LNER wagons. As the LNER is the only company (in my view) to have any decent 'high goods' opens on the RTR market I think you were justified in not including any.

That said I agree with Graham's broad thrust – we are poorly served as regards General Merchandise Opens (and to a lesser extent vans). As Graham says the majority of wagons (apart from minerals) in 1948 were opens and ordinary vans. On top of that, of the vans and opens alone, only 31% were vans while 69% were general merchandise opens.

As far as the RTR market is concerned there are only 2½ high goods (ie 5-/6-planks or so) which are worth considering in my view:

* LNER 6-plank by Oxford, presumably Diag.3. Very nice, though it ought to have Morton brake gear rather than the 'Either Side' it has.

* LNER Steel by Bachmann, Diags.186, 190, 194.  Again, very nice.

* LMS 5-plank currently (only?) by Hornby, Diag.1892. This is the venerable Airfix (?) moulding as far as the body is concerned. I give it half because:

   a) Hornby don't give it the obvious LMS or BR liveries, only spurious PO ones, and

   b) it could do with a decent underframe. 
 

Incidentally the LMS built these both unfitted and with AVB. The fitted ones had 8-shoe brakes which has never (?) been offered RTR. Ramsay describes this as a hybrid LMS/GWR Open but to me it looks more LMS. It does look a lot like some late LNER and SR 5-planks as well.

There is a Dapol 4-plank which Ramsay describes as based on a GWR design. If so, how accurate it is I don't know and I doubt that they survived to 'modern' times.

To be continued…

Edited by BMacdermott
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Hello everyone

 

Chris has kindly sent the additional notes.

 

Brian

 

Additional Notes from Chris Knowles-Thomas

 

SR

Diag.1379. 8-plank. 9ft wb. Unfitted.
Diag.1380. 5-plank. 9ft wb. Unfitted

Diag.1400. 8-plank. 10ft wb. Unfitted.
Diag.1377. 8-plank. 10ft wb. AVB.
Diag.1375. 5-plank. 10ft wb. Unfitted. Wartime design; also supplied to LNER & LMS.


BR
Diag.1/039. 5-plank. 10ft wb. AVB (& unfitted?). Corrugated steel ends, sheet rail.
Diag.1/044. 5-plank. 10ft wb. Unfitted. Corrugated steel ends.
Diag.1/041. Steel. 10ft wb. AVB & unfitted.

NB. I have concentrated on straight 'High Goods' wagons but there are shock absorbing variants which could be added. Also note that under the 1955 Modernisation Plan, BR equipped multitudes of previously unfitted wagons with AVB if their wheelbase was 10ft+.

 

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Posted (edited)

Hello everyone

 

In the light of Graham's comments and the notes just arrived from Chris, I will be slightly revamping Mini-Poll No.5 to include what I can without knocking off balance what is already listed.

 

Brian

Edited by BMacdermott
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Posted (edited)

Final Call for Votes - 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4

 

Hello everyone

 

A reminder that your 'Polling Station' closes at 1700 today. Results are expected during tomorrow, Friday 11 June.

 

Although we have had much discussion about these vehicles, the 'turnout' is not as high as one might expect. Are there any 'underlying reasons'? Do you have too many wagons already? Do wagons not appeal to you? Do you find the complexity perplexing? I'd be interested to hear.

 

If you haven't already voted, here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items listed.

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7, 9, 12 – with comments and explanations following.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1. Banana Vans (there are too many to list individually)

2. Bulk Grain Hopper Wagon 22½-ton (Diag.73 of late 1930s)

3. Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

4. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as built (Diag.134 of 1938)

5. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as rebuilt, Recessed Doors, Branded ‘XP’/‘Insul Fish’, Painted White (Originally Diag.134 of 1938)

6. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends with Small Shutters (Diags.14-17 of 1926)

7. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

8. Low Machinery Wagon, Lowmac 4-wheel, 21-ton (inc BR Diags.2/240 etc of 1949/51)

9. Low Machinery Wagon, Flatrol 4-wheel, 20-ton (inc BR Diag.2/512 of 1949)

10. RCH Coal Wagon 5-, 6-, 7- & 8-plank (1887-1907)

11. Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

12. Tube Wagon Unfitted, 30ft 6ins & 32ft 0in (BR Diags.1/447 & 1/448 of 1951 and 1954)

 

Brian

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3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Final Call for Votes - 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4

 

Hello everyone

 

A reminder that your 'Polling Station' closes at 1700 today. Results are expected during tomorrow, Friday 11 June.

 

Although we have had much discussion about these vehicles, the 'turnout' is not as high as one might expect. Are there any 'underlying reasons'? Do you have too many wagons already? Do wagons not appeal to you? Do you find the complexity perplexing? I'd be interested to hear.

 

If you haven't already voted, here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items listed.

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7, 9, 12 – with comments and explanations following.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1. Banana Vans (there are too many to list individually)

2. Bulk Grain Hopper Wagon 22½-ton (Diag.73 of late 1930s)

3. Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

4. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as built (Diag.134 of 1938)

5. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as rebuilt, Recessed Doors, Branded ‘XP’/‘Insul Fish’, Painted White (Originally Diag.134 of 1938)

6. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends with Small Shutters (Diags.14-17 of 1926)

7. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

8. Low Machinery Wagon, Lowmac 4-wheel, 21-ton (inc BR Diags.2/240 etc of 1949/51)

9. Low Machinery Wagon, Flatrol 4-wheel, 20-ton (inc BR Diag.2/512 of 1949)

10. RCH Coal Wagon 5-, 6-, 7- & 8-plank (1887-1907)

11. Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

12. Tube Wagon Unfitted, 30ft 6ins & 32ft 0in (BR Diags.1/447 & 1/448 of 1951 and 1954)

 

Brian

Perplexed of 36E here Brian. I like wagons and vans for the interest they provide, giving huge variety and nostalgia of a different era. However, I need fewer of these things as I don't model the main freight routes and not the ER. I know wagons and vans travelled far and wide, however the SR West of England Main Line was quite conservative in the type of traffic handled and I also have far too many wagons and vans many of which are not suitable anyway!!!!

I love these polls but forgive the no participation here as it is aimed at those that would actually purchase said items.

Phil

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3 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Final Call for Votes - 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4

 

Hello everyone

 

 Are there any 'underlying reasons'? Do you have too many wagons already? Do wagons not appeal to you? Do you find the complexity perplexing? I'd be interested to hear.

 

 

 

Brian

 

Hi Brian

To answer your question - I have carried a lot of research into the locos that I need ( types and their numbers), I have also carried out a fair amount of research into the carriages ( mainly just the types in this category) but, in the case of wagons, I have only really got as far as the number of goods trains and their approximate size. 

 

Working out what actual wagons were used on these goods trains in the 1930s is not something that can easily be found (I’d be delighted if someone can tell me otherwise:))

When I look at photos then I can see that there are different wagon heights etc.....but I don’t, yet, have the knowledge to identify the actual types. This is especially the case when most photos focus on the loco in a front 3/4 view. 

 

This is just my current “state of play” and I’m working on ways to make progress on the wagons!

 

Jon

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Posted (edited)

Thanks Phil and Jon

 

It does seem to follow that the overall focus of modellers is on locos - they are 'right out front' and look impressive with the all the smoke and steam. Coaches are sometimes 'attractive', but wagons are down the pecking order and - as Jon rightly says - getting the right information gets progressively harder the farther you go back in time.

 

The Locos>Coaches>Wagons 'hierarchy' is something we have seen in The 00 Wishlist Poll Results over the years.

 

The following is totally unscientific and was (almost literally) done 'on the back of a fag packet', but a look at the 2019 Results in relation to just LNER items which might have been seen at Peterborough North bears this out...

 

Locos - an average of 136 votes each item

Coaches - an average of 113 votes each item

Wagons - an average of 110 votes each item

 

Brian

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4 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Although we have had much discussion about these vehicles, the 'turnout' is not as high as one might expect. Are there any 'underlying reasons'? Do you have too many wagons already? Do wagons not appeal to you? Do you find the complexity perplexing? I'd be interested to hear.


I have not voted for anything in this poll. I have intentionally chosen not to, as I don't believe I would genuinely buy any of the options listed.

I don't have too many wagons, and I do like them -- but I already have a vast list of wagons I should buy but mostly don't. I can't afford most of them, and a lot of stuff sells out before it gets far enough up my list to be purchased. (Or what was planned as a rake turns out to be a single sample wagon).

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1 hour ago, Mallard60022 said:

Perplexed of 36E here Brian. I like wagons and vans for the interest they provide, giving huge variety and nostalgia of a different era. However, I need fewer of these things as I don't model the main freight routes and not the ER. I know wagons and vans travelled far and wide, however the SR West of England Main Line was quite conservative in the type of traffic handled and I also have far too many wagons and vans many of which are not suitable anyway!!!!

I love these polls but forgive the no participation here as it is aimed at those that would actually purchase said items.

Phil

It's surprising what "unexpected" wagons did turn up on the SW main line, though.

 

In one of the wagon "albums" I just can't resist collecting, I recently came across one of A.E. West's photos dated 1957, and taken in Axminster goods yard, which seemed to be a periodic haunt of his. 

 

An ex-LNER 21t Loco coal wagon being used for domestic coal traffic. The kind that's available as a Parkside kit; minus the Loco Coal branding, but still in black. Kit duly acquired!

 

John

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32 minutes ago, Bloodnok said:


I have not voted for anything in this poll. I have intentionally chosen not to, as I don't believe I would genuinely buy any of the options listed.

Thanks Bloodnok

 

That is exactly the parameter within which to work with these Mini-Polls.

 

Brian

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6 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Final Call for Votes - 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4

 

Hello everyone

 

A reminder that your 'Polling Station' closes at 1700 today. Results are expected during tomorrow, Friday 11 June.

 

Although we have had much discussion about these vehicles, the 'turnout' is not as high as one might expect. Are there any 'underlying reasons'? Do you have too many wagons already? Do wagons not appeal to you? Do you find the complexity perplexing? I'd be interested to hear.

 

If you haven't already voted, here’s what to do…

1. You may vote for any or all of the items listed.

2. They must be items you would realistically wish to buy if made RTR.

3. Submit your entries on this thread simply as (for example): 2, 4, 7, 9, 12 – with comments and explanations following.

4. If you vote by PM, please only list your selection of numbers without explanations.

 

1. Banana Vans (there are too many to list individually)

2. Bulk Grain Hopper Wagon 22½-ton (Diag.73 of late 1930s)

3. Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

4. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as built (Diag.134 of 1938)

5. Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as rebuilt, Recessed Doors, Branded ‘XP’/‘Insul Fish’, Painted White (Originally Diag.134 of 1938)

6. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends with Small Shutters (Diags.14-17 of 1926)

7. Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

8. Low Machinery Wagon, Lowmac 4-wheel, 21-ton (inc BR Diags.2/240 etc of 1949/51)

9. Low Machinery Wagon, Flatrol 4-wheel, 20-ton (inc BR Diag.2/512 of 1949)

10. RCH Coal Wagon 5-, 6-, 7- & 8-plank (1887-1907)

11. Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

12. Tube Wagon Unfitted, 30ft 6ins & 32ft 0in (BR Diags.1/447 & 1/448 of 1951 and 1954)

 

Brian

2,4,5,6,7,12.

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7 hours ago, Bloodnok said:


I have not voted for anything in this poll. I have intentionally chosen not to, as I don't believe I would genuinely buy any of the options listed.

I don't have too many wagons, and I do like them -- but I already have a vast list of wagons I should buy but mostly don't. I can't afford most of them, and a lot of stuff sells out before it gets far enough up my list to be purchased. (Or what was planned as a rake turns out to be a single sample wagon).

I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint. I thought hard before voting because in reality I would only buy the wagons I voted for at a reasonable price which for me means significantly under £20. That probably means they’d have to be produced by Oxford Rail and not Bachmann! If you wish to discount my vote on that basis then feel free.

 

Andy

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10 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

I have carried a lot of research into the locos that I need ( types and their numbers), I have also carried out a fair amount of research into the carriages ( mainly just the types in this category) but, in the case of wagons, I have only really got as far as the number of goods trains and their approximate size. 

 

9 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

It does seem to follow that the overall focus of modellers is on locos - they are 'right out front' and look impressive with the all the smoke and steam. Coaches are sometimes 'attractive', but wagons are down the pecking order and - as Jon rightly says - getting the right information gets progressively harder the farther you go back in time.

 

The Locos>Coaches>Wagons 'hierarchy' is something we have seen in The 00 Wishlist Poll Results over the years.

I have to agree entirely. I suspect it will be ever thus in terms of the locos>coaches>wagons hierarchy.

 

The other issue with 'farther back in time' is that it inevitably gets harder to appreciate how dominant goods traffic was in the steam age railway. Two-thirds of the LNER's revenue was from goods traffic. And - remarkably - the same split is still there in the Beeching report, when summarising the revenue figures from 1961.

image.png.5b47469a49ae184d4d002b9a2196be4f.png

Other factors I would cite include:

 

Photographers tending to be lineside predominantly at weekends rather than weekdays (less paid holidays back then).

Tendency to photograph the glamourous / unusual in any case, and let the humble freight train rumble by.

 

I will happily admit to being equally as fatally drawn to glamorous express passenger locos - I have to keep reminding myself that a healthy mix of goods / passenger stock should be the mantra for a steam age layout.

 

PS - and a lot of freight went by night!

Edited by LNER4479
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9 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I have a lot of sympathy with this viewpoint. I thought hard before voting because in reality I would only buy the wagons I voted for at a reasonable price which for me means significantly under £20. That probably means they’d have to be produced by Oxford Rail and not Bachmann! If you wish to discount my vote on that basis then feel free.

 

Andy

 

Hello Andy

 

Your votes are perfectly valid against the stated criterion of 'realistically wish to buy'.

 

Part of the agreed purpose of these Mini-Polls is to 'tease out' comments that might indicate a direction of thought of the voters. All the comments received are edited into one PDF and this is open to the makers to read.

 

It is up to them to set their prices but - if they are too high or don't seem to offer value for money against the competition - they will fail to sell.

 

Brian

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Re: Freight vs Passenger stock.
I don't really understand why there should be a modelling problem. Goods and mineral wagons are smaller and easier to make. There is a good supply of kits which can be made and/or modified, and present an unsurpassed method of cheering oneself up in dark and depressing times. There are some RTR models which can be used or modified as required, although I continue to be surprised at the relative paucity of LMS stock.

My current level of modelling skill hasn't yet risen to make much coaching stock, although I did complete a rake of 52' non-vestibuled vehicles just in time for Hornby to produce their nice models of the same.

image.png.0c13a4826d406ba7bc8191703ec9f98f.png

 

However, should Mr Macdermott's interesting exercise above instigate an RTR version  of my ex-GNR cattle wagon (of which I am quite proud) - I shall be very cross!

 

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Results - 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.4: Freight Stock – 4-wheel (Pre-1951)

 

Hello everyone

 

Many thanks to the 15 voters who took part. The Comments Received are appended on a PDF as usual.

 

High Polling

11        Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Vertical Plank Sides, Horizontal Plank Ends, Small Shutters (Diags.14-17)

9          Goods Van 12-ton, Sliding Doors, Plywood (Diags.172, 176, 195 of 1943-1948)

8          Cattle Wagon, 10ft wheelbase (1920s)

8          Single Bolster Wagon (inc BR Diags.1/400, 1/401, 1/402 & 1/405 of 1949 on)

 

Middle Polling

7          Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as built (Diag.134 of 1938)

7          Fish Van 10-ton, 12ft wheelbase, as rebuilt, Recessed Doors, Painted White (Originally Diag.134 of 1938)

6          Banana Vans (there are too many to list individually)

5          RCH Coal Wagon 5-, 6-, 7- & 8-plank (1887-1907)

 

Low Polling

4          Tube Wagon Unfitted, 30ft 6ins & 32ft 0in (BR Diags.1/447 & 1/448 of 1951 and 1954)

2          Bulk Grain Hopper Wagon 22½-ton (Diag.73 of late 1930s)

2          Low Machinery Wagon, Lowmac 4-wheel, 21-ton (inc BR Diags.2/240 etc of 1949/51)

2          Low Machinery Wagon, Flatrol 4-wheel, 20-ton (inc BR Diag.2/512 of 1949)

 

The results seem to make some logical sense…broadly speaking:

·         The High Pollers are more likely to be ‘go anywhere/generally useful’ types;

·         The Fish and Bananas in the Middle are perhaps more appealing to ‘main line modellers’; and

·         The more ‘specialised’ ones fall into the Low Polling.

 

We will be back on Monday with 00 Rolling Stock Mini-Poll No.5: More 4-wheel Wagons plus Some Containers.

 

This is a change to the previewed title in order to reflect our discussion about Open Wagons. You will find a couple of ‘coal types’ there too, so it will be interesting so see if they poll higher than the RCH types above.

 

Interestingly, we have seen very few new tool steam era wagons recently, but post-1964 types seem to be coming to market at a rate of knots!

 

Brian

 

Mini-Poll No.4 Comments Received.pdf

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