Peterborough North

[bigwordsmith]

's alright for you lot with DCC to keep talking about sound - not fair for us poor so-and-sos stuck in the analogue ( steam) era.

 

Especially when we also have a reasonable stable of big diseasels

[Mallard60022]

Smithy....how are you old bean?

DCC sound is stupidly expensive IMO if you have more than a couple of loco's, so don't fret. DCC control on the other hand, is something I have grown to enjoy for its' versatility and usefulness in yard and shunting work.

Anyway, I think it will not be long before we get decent sound for analogue. It might be different in that it is 'surround sound' of a train 'passing' rather than just the loco noise.

I like this idea......especially if the sound more or less fits the number of wagons etc. Lots of clanks and rattles; great fun.

P

Edited January 20, 2015 by Mallard60022

[bigwordsmith]

I have to be honest Phil I have thought about DCC on a few occasions for the control ability, but I'm not sure how well I would adapt to using it, especially on a big layout with multiple movements. 

 

The thing about model engineering is that you are signal man and driver all in one - with DCC it's too easy IMHO to set the train in motion and then forget it's running while you programme another to set off. I suppose I like the idea of one controller one loco, because I still haven't learned how to rub tummy and head at the same time.

 

Also with analogue you really do have to drive the train all the time. IT may be the same, but as I've never used it It may just be fear of two things - 1 is the complexity of wiring up the layout with droppers off every piece of track, the other is that I'd have to get a Windows PC to programme the thing, and as a lifelong MacAddict that's like having to change religion!

[Mallard60022]

I don't want to discuss the DCC thing here, however it can be very easy to convert a DC layout, without droppers as well. You can still be a one loco in 'steam' driver too.

P

[great northern]

I have to be honest Phil I have thought about DCC on a few occasions for the control ability, but I'm not sure how well I would adapt to using it, especially on a big layout with multiple movements. 

 

The thing about model engineering is that you are signal man and driver all in one - with DCC it's too easy IMHO to set the train in motion and then forget it's running while you programme another to set off. I suppose I like the idea of one controller one loco, because I still haven't learned how to rub tummy and head at the same time.

 

Also with analogue you really do have to drive the train all the time. IT may be the same, but as I've never used it It may just be fear of two things - 1 is the complexity of wiring up the layout with droppers off every piece of track, the other is that I'd have to get a Windows PC to programme the thing, and as a lifelong MacAddict that's like having to change religion!

I don't want to stir up the DCC debate again either Peter, but I will say that the need to connect lots of droppers to the bus bar is offset, very considerably, by the fact that you don't have to wire up loads of isolating sections to lots of switches, and then make a control panel for them to live in. And I reckon you can drive a train better with DCC. Having said that, the cost of decoders for lots of locos is a very big factor, particularly split chassis conversions.

[New Haven Neil]

While we're on sound.....the yank steamers are so much better, so it can be done. The Yanks do chuff to a standstill of course, they 'power brake' a lot to keep the slack out of very long trains, but both of mine ease off quite nicely as you slow.  The 2-8-0 bachy has rod clank to make a WD jealous!

 

I have a Biffo Peak, and that is quite something, really sounds right to me (Ex-Engineer, don't forget - I listen carefully to engine sounds a lot!) and the flange squeal just adds that little frisson!

[Mallard60022]

What steam sound DCC needs is some old fogy like me to have the skill to do programmes. Why, well I actually remember what a he** of a lot of steam loco's actually sounded like and then there is Mr. Handfords lovely recordings to help with stuff I never heard. There may be, of course, some 'more mature' modellers that have the memory and the programming skills. If so, please reveal yourselves. We need you. IMO most diesel programmes are produced by 'younger' people, that maybe do not know what steam really sounded like because they didn't have the opportunity to hear it?

However I still think that sound systems should be of trains passing so we get the coach/van/ wagon noise as well (as near as can be achieved). Imagine that Dubdee clank echoing around Gilbert's Station depths or the Streak chime droning around the bend under the bridge. Oh, I can hear it now........

P

[New Haven Neil]

I agree Phil.  Many of the steam sounds I hear are very generic sounding - all steam locos sound alike to the people making them I suppose - but they do not.  The gruff chuff of a 4F is very different to the chatter of a Spam Can, and the crisp bark of a Hall.  There's enough preserved steam for folk to go out and listen and hear the differences, and as you say the Argo records are out there - I have loads of them!

 

Gilbert's station is made for sound.....I reckon a Deltic would sound great under that roof!

[The Stationmaster]

The problem with steam sound is that it is difficult to reproduce all the factors which influence the resultant sounds.  It has long been shown that synchronising the 'chuff' is relatively straightforward but it needs an open chassis to either install a cam and microswitch or an electronic equivalent.  I have however yet to hear any steam sound which incorporates variation of cut-off or the facility for 'drifting' - both, in my view, as relevant to true sound reproduction as things like the correct whistle sounds or cylinder drain cocks.

 

Perhaps one day steam sound will advance that far - but I have yet to hear it.

[JeffP]

Yet, in theory, steam sounds ought to be better as they are in the higher frequencies, unlike diesels.

 

I have heard VERY few diesel sounds, even in "O" gauge locos, that don't sound tinny due to the tiny little speakers in use.

 

Perhaps someone could come up with a sub that sits under the baseboard and plays the deeper bass notes? After all, it works for HiFi and TV systems, since the human ear canot tell where bass sounds come from easily.

[great northern]

I too am ambivalent about sound. I have an A4 with sound, so the chime whistle can be heard as it approaches, but no coast function at all, so coming to a stand is totally unrealistic. I also have a Bachmann A1, which is much better, and will coast, but still doesn't really sound right. I find that the sound gets very wearing after a little while when a loco is stationary, even though I've turned it down, so the thought of several locos sitting on the layout with sound switched on makes me shudder. I agree with Phil too that other noises are necessary to get the atmosphere as it should be, and I can't see sound fitted coaches and wagons coming any time soon, so it would have to be from speakers as Phil says. Would that work? I'm not sure. One thing is sure, I'm not fitting a sound decoder to Deltic, as it might blow the roof off.

[manna]

G'day Gents

 

My memories of (real) steam sound are rather different, when I was a child (single digit) I watched the steam engine, and didn't take a lot of notice of the sounds, except that they 'hissed' and chuffed out of the station (N2's) when I reached double digit's steam was on the decline, most of the tanks were disappearing fast, we still had the wonderful 'clank' of the WD's, But, the main sound of a steam loco was to me, a ECML Pacific, roaring through Wood Green station, at about 60mph, you could hear the engine working hard on a Down Express, but the sound was, to me a bit muted, it was only when it hit the end of the platform, that you got the full effect, but it only lasted a few second, before the noise of the whole train, overtook the sound of the loco, Up trains were even lest distinct, the loco's were under light steam, or coasting, so you didn't even hear the loco, except for a roaring clank, followed by a diddle dum, diddle dum, as they passed 6' away.

 

The only time you could really hear a steam loco, was when I was in bed at night, when I could hear a train coming through Hornsey and accelerating towards Potters Bar, Then you hear them for miles.

 

manna

[LNERGE]

Gilbert's station is made for sound.....I reckon a Deltic would sound great under that roof!

I have a prototype Deltic with sound...

 

Edited January 23, 2015 by LNERGE

[Theakerr]

I have no interest in loco sound since a) whilst I can't  really remember what a loco sounded like at any one time I defiantly know when the sound is wrong and it drives me nuts and B)  B) if some of the layouts that have multiple diesels sitting around with their sound on is anything to go on the sound for multiple steam locos would drive me over the edge.  However, I do have an interest in sound for specific actions; say the chime of an A4 or the whistle of a B1 as it approaches a station and even a tano system for the inside of the train shed roof.  No-one has mentioned smoke but for some people it seems very important.  Again with one exception the smoke I see is so un-realistic that it is a no-brainer.  The one exception was something I saw on U-Tube where the owner had made "smoke" come rolling out of a tunnel mouth as the train came out.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Theakerr

[coachmann]

My good friend PGH of this forum has North American 7mm narrow gauge locos with sound and he has tuned them up pretty well. Without touching the controller, the locos sense an upgrade and so the exhaust sound strengthens while going down the other side the exhaust stops and the clanking rods cut in.

 

While watching and listening to his locos, it occurred to me the only time I would entertain DCC sound in 4mm would be if I had a sleepy branch line and terminus, as this is where sound would really be of benefit. Chuffing down the branch and coasting into the station, the push-pull auto vac regulator humming within the chimney...... I really would be back in the 1950s! As for the rest of the sound options such as the firemen's shovel, thou can stuff 'um. 

Edited January 23, 2015 by coachmann

[Mallard60022]

May I bring this discussion to a conclusion by stating that the imagination in the mind of what something (or someone) should sound/look like is often working well(or should be surely?) whilst reading.   Perhaps the best sound for a whole layout is that kept in the viewer's head as they 'read' the scene?

Phil

[bigwordsmith]

Good point Phil as you say the quality is poor due to poor fidelity, and as Gilbert points out the general background noise of all those tinny little speakers would be enough to give one tinnitus!

 

I went to a show last year and they had a diesel sounddepot with about five locos all rumbling away - it was so annoying I moved on!

[trw1089]

As one who has recorded quite a bit of preserved steam and real steam in China with semi professional equipment I can say that there are very few DCC sound locos of steam that do it justice, perhaps the only one that I have heard come the closest is Paul Chetter's J94 that he stuck a Zimo sound project in. When I was modelling US prototypes, I had a few sound locos and I just wish that some of the Tsunami, TCS WOW and QSI sounds were availableg in UK prototypes, as they have managed to get steam sound reasonably close.

 

Still, I tend to have some background digital sounds playing in the background as I find that it is much easier on the ears than the high pitches out of the little speakers.

 

Cheers

Tony

[great northern]

May I bring this discussion to a conclusion by stating that the imagination in the mind of what something (or someone) should sound/look like is often working well(or should be surely?) whilst reading.   Perhaps the best sound for a whole layout is that kept in the viewer's head as they 'read' the scene?

Phil

Good point Phil. There are so many things that would be needed to complete the scene. Not just the sound of trains, but, for example...." The next train to arrive at Platform 3 will be the 1026 to Leeds, calling at Grantham, Newark, Retford......" I'm sure that could be done, using tape recordings, but imagine the time it would take to do it for the whole of my sequence. Perhaps I just need " We apologise for the late arrival of....... owing to the idiot with the controller setting the wrong road.....again".

 

I can iimagine the station announcements, but the sound of a train passing through? More difficult. I still want my wheezing clanking WD though.

[coachmann]

DCC sound was small-fry in comparison to exhibition layout owners who dispatched trains to another operator with full size ex.signalbox bell code equipment! Clanking bells and the serious look on the faces of the thwackers was enough to make any normal person move on.

Edited January 24, 2015 by coachmann

[Memphis32]

DCC sound was small-fry in comparison to exhibition layout owners who dispatched trains to another operator with full size ex.signalbox bell code equipment! Clanking bells and the serious look on the faces of the thwackers was enough to make any normal person move on.

It's not something I would ever do, but surely that is no more extreme than worrying about the size and type of lamps or the accuracy of train formations?

[Fat Controller]

DCC sound was small-fry in comparison to exhibition layout owners who dispatched trains to another operator with full size ex.signalbox bell code equipment! Clanking bells and the serious look on the faces of the thwackers was enough to make any normal person move on.

You ought to have been stuck on the adjacent stand to one of these for eight hours. Or, indeed, next to the one with the sound-equipped level crossing....Where did I put the 'phone number for the Noise Abatement Society?

[Clive Mortimore]

DCC sound was small-fry in comparison to exhibition layout owners who dispatched trains to another operator with full size ex.signalbox bell code equipment! Clanking bells and the serious look on the faces of the thwackers was enough to make any normal person move on.

Hi Larry

 

When MRJ held its big show in Central Hall, Westminster all those years ago, I was going round the show with my mate who is an ex-signalman. With it being so packed we could not see Buckingham but my mate was telling me what trains were running by the bell codes......Until there was one with several dings, he look puzzled and said " I do not have a clue"

 

At another show was a chap with his branch line layout, mainly operating on his own. He was using full bell codes from the fiddle yard to the station and visa-versa to tell himself what trains were leaving or entering the section. :scratchhead: Even after packing up my layout and driving home all I could hear was "Ding Ding Ding" ringing in my ears. Worse than my ears ringing after a good punk rock gig.

 

Before people started to add the tinny speakers to their locos I use to have a under the layout sound system for my diesel depot. My son had edited the sound of several diesel locos idling, a few starting up, clattering over the points and flange squeals. It had a nice bass sound to it, in fact it often sounded better over the other side of the hall than near the layout. I think it added to the layout. Trouble was the sound and movement did not match.  It was soon superseded by on board sound that did (sort of) match but lacks the bass sound. Stand next to a Peak just turning over and your belly can feel that bass, it is like being at a Death Metal gig. Instead with on board diesel sounds they are so high pitched that they match a junior school choir. Having experimented with sound I now find at exhibitions it is annoying.

 

My own personal view, but if others enjoy it then good on them.

[gresley]

Good point Phil. There are so many things that would be needed to complete the scene. Not just the sound of trains, but, for example...." The next train to arrive at Platform 3 will be the 1026 to Leeds, calling at Grantham, Newark, Retford......" I'm sure that could be done, using tape recordings, but imagine the time it would take to do it for the whole of my sequence. Perhaps I just need " We apologise for the late arrival of....... owing to the idiot with the controller setting the wrong road.....again".

 

I can iimagine the station announcements, but the sound of a train passing through? More difficult. I still want my wheezing clanking WD though.

Hi Gilbert,

 

Having experienced model railway "sound" I would most definitely NOT recommend it.   However, I have a much more authentic solution.   Transacord EPs and LPs, even recorded atPeterboro' .

 

Stuart

[coachmann]

It's not something I would ever do, but surely that is no more extreme than worrying about the size and type of lamps or the accuracy of train formations?

Whether modellers realise it or not, trains of coaches were not just thrown together higgledy-piggledy. Feedback from ticket sales ensured there were the right proportion of first and third class seats for any given train or route. This was the task of the carriage marshalling staff who specified the types which should be present. As usual photos are the best lead.

Edited January 24, 2015 by coachmann