Peterborough North

[HeeleyBridge]

I would have expected that Cuneo style, the beast would have had a mallard sitting on top of it

 

And I still think they look right and add to the atmosphere.

[Mallard60022]

Shellduck perhaps, however a Mallard would fall off said posts.

There is a duck bathing in the water tower tank on PN; I like to think it is a 'relative'.

Now, back to some serious pole discussion! Those Engineer's Yard T. Poles. Any good pics of the east side of the main line that show the little blighters?

Quack

[Clive Mortimore]

Linesider, don't be put off posting. I certainly took your observations as helpful advice and I am now getting my superhero suspenders ready for ceiling grip and have begun work on the Swallows. However, I'm only making two as Gilbert's operational time frame is such that they would have migrated by the time he is running his trains. Yup, I do my research tha knaws.......    

Quinkers.

Dear Mr Duck

 

 

As some of your relatives are migratory surely they would have told you about their journey to England where the sky is full of them pesky Scandinavian pigeons that come to East Anglia (as defined by the TV companies) to sit on the telegraph wires during the winter. So were are all expecting to see the wires heavily laden with pigeons.

[Mallard60022]

Dear Mr Duck

 

 

As some of your relatives are migratory surely they would have told you about their journey to England where the sky is full of them pesky Scandinavian pigeons that come to East Anglia (as defined by the TV companies) to sit on the telegraph wires during the winter. So were are all expecting to see the wires heavily laden with pigeons.

Ah!!!!!

Quackers.

[great northern]

If only....Peterborough had a proper station just like that, today.

 

Stewart

Complete with leaking roof?

[great northern]

As one of 4 members that offered observations about the poles, certainly on my part you can call it feedback rather than "criticism", I'd just like to say that this is a forum, and for my part I was very positive, and greatly respect and appreciate what Gilbert, his staunch ally and supporter Duck and all the contributors to the Magnum Opus that is PN is.  I feel it a little unfair to be apparently censured for contributing to the thread, as this post puts me off doing. 

 I have no problem at all with your post. You offered what you said you hoped was "helpful and constructive advice", and so far as I'm concerned that is exactly what it was. You are very welcome to the thread, and please do not feel put off contributing to it in future.

[LNERGE]

That will almost certainly be the Telegraph Office.  Many railway telegraph offices also sent public telegrams at one time so there would have been public access to the counter.

 

I don't know much about ER (GN) practice apart from the fact that it was one of if not the last mainline(s) in the country to use single needle telegraphs - I believe they survived until MAS arrived in the 1970s - but there would in any case have been an enormous number of wires (railwayese for telegram) sent as part of the everyday business of numerous departments particularly as the telephone network was not all that well developed for long distance communication and in any case wires in code were quicker and simpler in many respects.  

 

Again I don't know about ER (GN) practice but on the Western at medium size stations the Telegraph Office was usually where the telephone switchboard was located as well - and of course it generally took over as wires became a thing of the past.  And modernisation didn't exactly end things - the ill fated and never completed 1960s rebuilding of Reading station included a brand new automatic telephone exchange and I remember in 1967 that to sometimes save time in the evenings we would take the outwards goods wires there instead of reading them over the 'phone to the operator (as it was enroute to the station, and the train home); the big difference was that by then many wires were being sent by the BR equivalent of telex instead of earlier methods.

A little insight into what some of the wires did. This shows Huntingdon but the long distance stuff would go through Peterborough..

[great northern]

I'm sorry chaps, I should have added to the last post I was referring to post #7924.

 

Gilbert, I have visions of Duck suspended from the ceiling "Mission Impossible" style to add the necessary swallows to the telegraph wires?

 

 

 

Linesider, don't be put off posting. I certainly took your observations as helpful advice and I am now getting my superhero suspenders ready for ceiling grip and have begun work on the Swallows. However, I'm only making two as Gilbert's operational time frame is such that they would have migrated by the time he is running his trains. Yup, I do my research tha knaws.......    

Quinkers.

 

 

Dear Mr Duck

 

 

As some of your relatives are migratory surely they would have told you about their journey to England where the sky is full of them pesky Scandinavian pigeons that come to East Anglia (as defined by the TV companies) to sit on the telegraph wires during the winter. So were are all expecting to see the wires heavily laden with pigeons.

 Multiquote is not being cooperative just now, so here is a composite response to the suggestions regarding what might be sitting on the wires. It is late August 1958 at PN, so the swallows are very busy up in the air stocking up for the coming migration. This means they will not be in shot when i take photos, or if they are they will just be a blur, as they fly very quickly. Certainly no pigeons, as they would undoubtedly crap on the poles, and I've already said I don't want to model that. Actually though there is an even simpler response. I'm not going to put on any wires, so there would be nothing for them to perch on anyway.

 

Having discovered the water tank, our local mallard seems to be well settled there, though I suppose he might have a flap around now and then.

[great northern]

Shellduck perhaps, however a Mallard would fall off said posts.

There is a duck bathing in the water tower tank on PN; I like to think it is a 'relative'.

Now, back to some serious pole discussion! Those Engineer's Yard T. Poles. Any good pics of the east side of the main line that show the little blighters?

Quack

Now don't get carried away Phil. If you remember we discussed this and concluded that the rest of the poles at that end are right across alongside the road, and thus off the model. The one behind North box is the only other one we need.

[Clive Mortimore]

 Multiquote is not being cooperative just now, so here is a composite response to the suggestions regarding what might be sitting on the wires. It is late August 1958 at PN, so the swallows are very busy up in the air stocking up for the coming migration. This means they will not be in shot when i take photos, or if they are they will just be a blur, as they fly very quickly. Certainly no pigeons, as they would undoubtedly crap on the poles, and I've already said I don't want to model that. Actually though there is an even simpler response. I'm not going to put on any wires, so there would be nothing for them to perch on anyway.

 

Having discovered the water tank, our local mallard seems to be well settled there, though I suppose he might have a flap around now and then.

Hi Gilbert

 

Rookes, crows, magpies, starlings and various finches like roosting on the wires. As for bird poo, how about some seagulls on the post themselves

[great northern]

Hi Gilbert

 

Rookes, crows, magpies, starlings and various finches like roosting on the wires. As for bird poo, how about some seagulls on the post themselves

On a fairly serious note, I wonder how big those wires actually were? Reduced to 4mm scale, would they be visible anyway? What set me off on that by the way was the thought of an 00 size finch! A mallard is pretty small, so a goldfinch would be a mere speck.

[Mallard60022]

So far as I can see there are no birds using any of the posts in any of the pics I have in my collection. One blast of the safety valves and all that tooting and chiming of whistles would have also kept them well at bay. Hoorah!

Quackers.

[coachmann]

On a fairly serious note, I wonder how big those wires actually were? Reduced to 4mm scale, would they be visible anyway? 

Funnily enough I have been giving the matter of wire attached to fencing posts similar thoughts seeing as the ex GWR used it for boundary fencing. Might be a case of sink the posts and f*ck the wires as with telegraph poles! A little spider has been living in the Gents at my terminus and the thinness of his webbing is probably about right for 4mm telegraph wires. Leave saw raw meant somewhere on your layout, which in turn will breed flies, and watch the telegraph wires go up on those posts.....

Edited June 26, 2015 by coachmann

[Mallard60022]

Coach, the illusion created by the posts in such good scenery will lead viewers to 'see' the wire. If it was right up front them maybe you would need to grit yer nashers and do it. However, as it is 'on stage' then you are correct to ~~~~ it!

Phil

[great northern]

Continuing the quest to get the poles at the right height, I remembered a photo I have tried to recreate before, and as my back says it doesn't feel like golf practice, I had the time to give it another go. Here is the original image, reproduced under licence from geograph.

I'd say this was nearer 1963 than my period, but little would have changedthough a fair bit of the screen at the end of the roof has either been taken down or fallen down. I don't have the right locomotive, nor most of the correct vans and wagons, and my extension to the hotel isn't long enough, so here is the best I could come up with.

At least you can tell it is the same place. Whether it is the same view point is a different matter. I think this must have been taken from Crescent Bridge, so that is what I have done. OK, those poles. Well, they look far too tall, don't they?  It all depends of course on the height from which the original was taken, which I don't know, so it is at best an approximation, but I think they do need to come down a bit more. They also look a bit bulky and stark against that very bright sky, but frankly I got tired of trying to photoshop out all of the background clutter which got in the way, so there is too much mass to them. And for once I could have upped the contrast a bit more, as the original appears to be rather over exposed. Mind you, Ben Brooksbank had some very strong light to contend with when he took it, so I sympathise.

 

Now I shall show my ignorance. Larry (Coachmann) has said that I need to use a wider angle on my shots. Can someone explain that for me please? The camera doesn't have a wide angle lens, and I had to zoom in to get this to look anything like the original, so I'm a bit baffled,(again).

 

Now I've looked at it again, mine is taken from too high up, so the height of the poles is exaggerated I thnk.

Edited June 26, 2015 by great northern

[Mallard60022]

Great shot Gilbert. That really does give you the 'reference' for height that you require. Out with the hacksaw....................

Quackers.

 

Edit: have you seen the 'new' Hornby K Class Pullmans on their site?

Edited June 26, 2015 by Mallard60022

[coachmann]

Now I shall show my ignorance. Larry (Coachmann) has said that I need to use a wider angle on my shots. Can someone explain that for me please? The camera doesn't have a wide angle lens, and I had to zoom in to get this to look anything like the original, so I'm a bit baffled,(again).

The real photo shows 10 wagons outside of the trainshed. The model has 6, so you need to move the camera position back somewhat, however, you say you used the telephoto end of your lens so this has tended to compress the scene.  Also your viewpoint is rather higher than that of the real photo. It's not complicated really and I apologise if I worried you a little. The real shot looks to have been taken through a standard lens, ie : one that gives an approximation of the humans eye view, which on a 35mm camera is 45-50mm. On a 4mm layout, I have found it better to use a 35mm lens on 35mm format and 28mm on a digital camera with a smaller than full size chip. Your lens in the G12 is a 28-140 according to DPReview and so try using the 28 end of the lens (this is the wide-angle I was referring to in an earlier post).

[Anotheran]

Looking at the angle of the hotel roof in the two photos seems to indicate that you are a little high in your shot. Being a little lower would have the effect of moving the cross pieces on the nearest pole higher against the roof line of the hotel while in the original they start considerably below it. So I think your original thought that they are too tall is correct. The length of pole covered by the cross pieces looks correct from this angle (the same arc of view as about 2.5 floors of the building) so it's just the pole below the cross pieces that is too long. Similar exercises for the other poles gives similar conclusions.

 

On the subject of wires, your photo seems to show a similar number as the real picture. I'm surprised that given how many there must have been that nothing shows on the photo. Had they been taken down by the time of the photo leaving the poles bare? If not then it shows that from a normal viewing distance the wires wouldn't be sufficiently visible to be worth bothering about... and I'd stick with that.

 

Overall I think they add fantastically to the atmosphere of the model. I'd agree with an earlier comment that they are a bit of an eyesore. But so are the pylons across the field in front of my house. They are there though and a real part of the scene. Brilliant work from you and Phil in recreating it.

 

Neil

[great northern]

Great shot Gilbert. That really does give you the 'reference' for height that you require. Out with the hacksaw....................

Quackers.

 

Edit: have you seen the 'new' Hornby K Class Pullmans on their site?

Those Pullmans are eagerly awaited Phil, so that I can stop cheating by using the Tees Tyne Pullman stock to represent the Yorkshire Pullman as well. As to the poles, I may leave the hacksaw where it is until you are next here so that we can make a joint decision. We shall see.

[great northern]

Looking at the angle of the hotel roof in the two photos seems to indicate that you are a little high in your shot. Being a little lower would have the effect of moving the cross pieces on the nearest pole higher against the roof line of the hotel while in the original they start considerably below it. So I think your original thought that they are too tall is correct. The length of pole covered by the cross pieces looks correct from this angle (the same arc of view as about 2.5 floors of the building) so it's just the pole below the cross pieces that is too long. Similar exercises for the other poles gives similar conclusions.

 

On the subject of wires, your photo seems to show a similar number as the real picture. I'm surprised that given how many there must have been that nothing shows on the photo. Had they been taken down by the time of the photo leaving the poles bare? If not then it shows that from a normal viewing distance the wires wouldn't be sufficiently visible to be worth bothering about... and I'd stick with that.

 

Overall I think they add fantastically to the atmosphere of the model. I'd agree with an earlier comment that they are a bit of an eyesore. But so are the pylons across the field in front of my house. They are there though and a real part of the scene. Brilliant work from you and Phil in recreating it.

 

Neil

Thanks Neil. The bridge I am using at the moment is a stopgap until Gravy Train can get the correct one done, and this photo confirms that it needs to be lower. When I get a bit of free time I may remove the bridge and try to perch the camera on something of a more appropriate height just to get a better idea of how much needs to come off the posts.

 

I'm certain the poles were still in use, as later photos show a gradual reduction in the number of arms/struts, until very few were left before they finally disappeared. In any event, I'm taking the pragmatic view. How long would it take to string all that lot? And it would be asking for trouble, as I would be bound to catch them with a finger or an elbow when leaning across.

 

There were a lot of eyesores around in the 50s if we remove our rose tinted spectacles, so if one is trying to achieve the atmosphere of the real thing, which is one of my main aims, they must be there. An even more controversial bit of scenery should appear shortly, and I expect that to cause a divergence of views. Dave Shakespeare was of the opinion that it should not be included, and I valued his advice greatly, but I feel it is essential that PN should be as it was, warts and all. Watch this space.

[Oldddudders]

The real photo shows 10 wagons outside of the trainshed. The model has 6, so you need to move the camera position back somewhat, however, you say you used the telephoto end of your lens so this has tended to compress the scene.  Also your viewpoint is rather higher than that of the real photo. It's not complicated really and I apologise if I worried you a little. The real shot looks to have been taken through a standard lens, ie : one that gives an approximation of the humans eye view, which on a 35mm camera is 45-50mm. On a 4mm layout, I have found it better to use a 35mm lens on 35mm format and 28mm on a digital camera with a smaller than full size chip. Your lens in the G12 is a 28-140 according to DPReview and so try using the 28 end of the lens (this is the wide-angle I was referring to in an earlier post).

Great advice, as we might expect from someone who has made some of his living from shooting trains.

 

Our problem these days is that we use the zoom to frame the shot, excluding the inconvenient bits etc. But the perspective gets changed with the zoom. Take Larry's advice, use the wide-angle - then crop the shot on the PC and you retain the perspective of a wide-angle lens.

[Mallard60022]

Today I went to what was part of the LNER at one time. There was a Beast there too, opposite the Loughborough Central signal box by the loco shed bridge and I spent several minutes seconds admiring it.

A most enjoyable day out at the GCR (Loughborough) with some of those fine fellows from ANTB; to be recommended, especially the luncheon! Thanks Colin.

Best laugh of the day.....someone had chartered a train for their weddiing reception. I was very tempted to stand outside the main coach and shout.......don't do it, but I think they already had (as it was the reception).

Slight disappointment of the day......the wedding train had a 9F and we only had an Ivatt 2.6.0.

I waved to Gilbert as  I sped past on the A46 this morning and this afternoon. I think he was searching for best price Hornby K Pullmans and so he didn't notice..........

Cunning plan of the day......I avoided the A1 diversions and missed the traffic jams in Ollerton by using my duck flight knowledge of the hidden villages just west of the A1 and just north of Newark. Good thing to know about if you happen to use the A1 northbound north of Newark.

Quackers.

[bigwordsmith]

A good friend of mine who used to fly Vulcans out of Waddington always said that  the A1 at weekends was a blooming great car park.

 

I once asked him how he knew, given that the RAF were well now for being weekday flyers, and he replied with a withering glance and the comment that  "If Ivan were to launch an all out conflict he'd probably choose 11.00 on a Sunday because everyone in the Uk would either be in church or stuck in a traffic jam, which is why they usually had at least two aircraft in the sky or on 2 minute alert on Sundays."

 

Apparently if you were in the air, odds were you'd be doing circuits and bumps around Lincoln thus giving you a grandstand view of the A1.

[Mallard60022]

The Vulcan is over Wadders tomorrow about 15.20/25 then back to Finners.

B. Iggles

[micklner]

 

From Facebook for Vulcan fans

 

 

 

Sunday 28th - important information for Day 2 of XH558's planned 'Salute to the V-Force' Tour. 

You might be aware that a large weather front is now coming in from the west. Hopefully, it will now clear ahead of the planned departure at 1300 Sunday, but there will be a full met' briefing by the crew and a Go/No Go call by noon on the day. Please do not head to your chosen locations until you have checked the tour is going ahead as planned on this channel, our Twitter feed or homepage.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2015 by micklner