Peterborough North

[jazzer]

I don’t have any details of the Up Scotch Goods, but the down one was officially known as “266 down “ and ran from Kings Cross Goods to Niddrie , departing 3.05 pm. It only conveyed Scottish traffic apart from additional wagons added at Biggleswade. 

 

It was a top link job for Kings Cross Shed .

 

Assuming the up run was a mirror image of the down run, it seems the train in your photo is not the Scotch Goods, firstly because it is running between Craigentenny and Wood Green, not Niddrie and KX , secondly because it has apparently dropped wagons off at Peterborough, which the Scotch Goods wouldn’t have done, and thirdly, I don’t think Thane ofvFife was a KX engine. One final thought is that the Down Scotch Goods ran from a mid afternoon departure from KX to an early hours arrival at Niddrie so that Edinburg traffic could be delivered the next working morning, and Aberdeen freight the next working afternoon . Presumably the Up train was a similar overnight service , in which case it would be passing through PN in the dark, probably a little after midnight.

 

Hope this throws some light on it. The pics just get better and better !

[31A]

I wonder whether anybody has any pictures of the real Craigentinny - Wood Green and whether it was really a goods train, or was perhaps some kind of empty coaching stock or parcels train running under "Express Goods" headlamps?  I ask as neither place was well known as far as I know as a freight location, but both did have extensive carriage sidings.

[great northern]

9 hours ago, jazzer said:

I don’t have any details of the Up Scotch Goods, but the down one was officially known as “266 down “ and ran from Kings Cross Goods to Niddrie , departing 3.05 pm. It only conveyed Scottish traffic apart from additional wagons added at Biggleswade. 

 

It was a top link job for Kings Cross Shed .

 

Assuming the up run was a mirror image of the down run, it seems the train in your photo is not the Scotch Goods, firstly because it is running between Craigentenny and Wood Green, not Niddrie and KX , secondly because it has apparently dropped wagons off at Peterborough, which the Scotch Goods wouldn’t have done, and thirdly, I don’t think Thane ofvFife was a KX engine. One final thought is that the Down Scotch Goods ran from a mid afternoon departure from KX to an early hours arrival at Niddrie so that Edinburg traffic could be delivered the next working morning, and Aberdeen freight the next working afternoon . Presumably the Up train was a similar overnight service , in which case it would be passing through PN in the dark, probably a little after midnight.

 

Hope this throws some light on it. The pics just get better and better !

This one definitely isn't it, and I know from articles that it had a Gateshead engine as far as New England, where one of ours took over. I got it wrong this time though, as I didn't bother consulting the list Andy Rush did for me, and relied on memory, a very dangerous thing to do. Looking at Andy's recommendations, he clearly says parcels vans/ECS for this train.

 

The train I've seen referred to as the Up scotch goods though is definitely a daytime train, as it has been photographed!  The only possibility I can see on the WTT is the Inverkeithing- KX Goods, due through PN at 2.06pm. According to Andy's list, that would have the correct sort of formation. The only Up Class C from Niddrie I can find in the WTT was through Peterborough at 6.30 am, and it is unlikely that there were many photographers about at that time of day, one would think.

[great northern]

1 hour ago, 31A said:

I wonder whether anybody has any pictures of the real Craigentinny - Wood Green and whether it was really a goods train, or was perhaps some kind of empty coaching stock or parcels train running under "Express Goods" headlamps?  I ask as neither place was well known as far as I know as a freight location, but both did have extensive carriage sidings.

Please see post above Steve, as I forgot to multiquote. You are spot on about the Craigentinny - that was me getting things wrong again, but the identity of the " Up scotch goods" still seems to be a mystery, unless some photographers did get up very early in the morning.

[St Enodoc]

4 minutes ago, great northern said:

This one definitely isn't it, and I know from articles that it had a Gateshead engine as far as New England, where one of ours took over. I got it wrong this time though, as I didn't bother consulting the list Andy Rush did for me, and relied on memory, a very dangerous thing to do. Looking at Andy's recommendations, he clearly says parcels vans/ECS for this train.

 

The train I've seen referred to as the Up scotch goods though is definitely a daytime train, as it has been photographed!  The only possibility I can see on the WTT is the Inverkeithing- KX Goods, due through PN at 2.06pm. According to Andy's list, that would have the correct sort of formation. The only Up Class C from Niddrie I can find in the WTT was through Peterborough at 6.30 am, and it is unlikely that there were many photographers about at that time of day, one would think.

It would seem quite likely that the Inverkeithing would have run via Niddrie and picked up the bulk of its wagons there. The Inverkeithing traffic might well have been from Rosyth Dockyard. So, if I were a betting man, I'd go for the Inverkeithing.

[great northern]

Thane of Fife is seen again this morning, on what must be another Class C running out of course, as it can't be the Craigentinny- Wood Green.

 

 

 

Meanwhile in number one bay, 60514 is getting ready for the light work involved in taking the 1033 to Kings Cross.

 

 

[Martin S-C]

22 hours ago, great northern said:

By all means Martin. I'll see what I can do, though there is very little left so some imagination will be needed.

Here we go then. Prepare yourselves for a sorry excuse for a railway...

 

First looking south.

 

 

 

 

 

Then the middle.

 

And north.

 

 

 

[70b]

this, cropped from the 2nd last shot, is the building with a bellcote much discussed some time back

[Martin S-C]

Yes, that's one of the few originals still standing in the region of the engineers sidings which Gilbert has modelled. Its now near the Borges Boulevard fire station though I'm not sure exactly what its used for but it certainly is still in use. I think that group, the GN Hotel and the two bridges are probably the only structures still near the station from the 1950s.

[jazzer]

7 hours ago, great northern said:

This one definitely isn't it, and I know from articles that it had a Gateshead engine as far as New England, where one of ours took over. I got it wrong this time though, as I didn't bother consulting the list Andy Rush did for me, and relied on memory, a very dangerous thing to do. Looking at Andy's recommendations, he clearly says parcels vans/ECS for this train.

 

The train I've seen referred to as the Up scotch goods though is definitely a daytime train, as it has been photographed!  The only possibility I can see on the WTT is the Inverkeithing- KX Goods, due through PN at 2.06pm. According to Andy's list, that would have the correct sort of formation. The only Up Class C from Niddrie I can find in the WTT was through Peterborough at 6.30 am, and it is unlikely that there were many photographers about at that time of day, one would think.

 I am rapidly coming to the opinion that there probably wasn't an Up Scotch Goods, or more precisely no Up equivalent for 266 Down.

 

Thinking back on everything I have ever read about the Scotch Goods, they all referred to the Down run, never the Up run. 266 Down was a Newcastle lodging turn for Top Shed crews and they brought the   same engine back from Newcastle on either the Flying Scotsman or Northumbrian.

.

There were s fair number of Class C freights between KX an Edinburg but  266 Down was the only one that had sufficient custom for a full train to Scotland , the others having to stop at the usual centres to pick up or drop wagons off. 

 

Bearing mind London's position as a business and manufacturing centre, compared with Edinburgh and the complete absence of any evidence of a through working  direct from Edinburgh to London, including in your WTT it seems, my guess is that 266 Down had no equivalent "English Goods ", but any freights originating in Scotland would have to include wagons for other destinations and /or pick up from Newcastle etc en route.

[rockershovel]

To be fair, the remodelling of the station is better looking than the “wonky rusty metal” lane divider in Bourges Boulevard! 

 

One thing I was mildly disappointed in, was that Peterborough STILL doesn’t have anything LIKE enough covered area (whether roof, waiting room or concourse) for the quite large numbers of passengers using it. My abiding memory of my commuting days, is the sub-Arctic misery of waiting for an early train in mid-winter..

 

 

[Mallard60022]

58 minutes ago, jazzer said:

 I am rapidly coming to the opinion that there probably wasn't an Up Scotch Goods, or more precisely no Up equivalent for 266 Down.

 

Thinking back on everything I have ever read about the Scotch Goods, they all referred to the Down run, never the Up run. 266 Down was a Newcastle lodging turn for Top Shed crews and they brought the   same engine back from Newcastle on either the Flying Scotsman or Northumbrian.

.

There were s fair number of Class C freights between KX an Edinburg but  266 Down was the only one that had sufficient custom for a full train to Scotland , the others having to stop at the usual centres to pick up or drop wagons off. 

 

Bearing mind London's position as a business and manufacturing centre, compared with Edinburgh and the complete absence of any evidence of a through working  direct from Edinburgh to London, including in your WTT it seems, my guess is that 266 Down had no equivalent "English Goods ", but any freights originating in Scotland would have to include wagons for other destinations and /or pick up from Newcastle etc en route.

Was 'The Scotch Goods' down an empty stock (presumably all Vans and fully fitted?) returning to, or a full goods bound for, wherever across the border?

I ask as there were few Express Goods services on the SR and the one I am familiar with was a weekdays, Pacific hauled,  40+ fully fitted Vans down from Nine Elms to Exmouth Junction, non stop before and after Salisbury, (empty as far as I know) returning Vans from earlier (daytime) separate up trains* (loaded and usually meat and perishables) during the day. The Vans were then distributed west (mainly) from Exmouth Junction. *These up trains, amalgamated at Exmouth Junction from shorter workings from all over the west, were shorter and not express rated and often added stock going east. Presumably the vans were recycled over a period of days not daily down and then back up the same day.

So perhaps your up to London Kings Cross Goods were also smaller trains with the stock being split for distribution wherever around the south east and amalgamated at The X on return, to form the express rated Scotch Goods? Just a thought.

Phil

[great northern]

4 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Yes, that's one of the few originals still standing in the region of the engineers sidings which Gilbert has modelled. Its now near the Borges Boulevard fire station though I'm not sure exactly what its used for but it certainly is still in use. I think that group, the GN Hotel and the two bridges are probably the only structures still near the station from the 1950s.

It is, or was until recently, the local office of one of the TOCs, but I don't remember which one. I agree with your assessment of what's left Martin, and it is remarkably little. Some of your photos had me wondering if it was the same place at first. To be honest, it is going to be difficult to create something from the same viewpoints, but I'll have a go.

[great northern]

56 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Was 'The Scotch Goods' down an empty stock (presumably all Vans and fully fitted?) returning to, or a full goods bound for, wherever across the border?

I ask as there were few Express Goods services on the SR and the one I am familiar with was a weekdays, Pacific hauled,  40+ fully fitted Vans down from Nine Elms to Exmouth Junction, non stop before and after Salisbury, (empty as far as I know) returning Vans from earlier (daytime) separate up trains* (loaded and usually meat and perishables) during the day. The Vans were then distributed west (mainly) from Exmouth Junction. *These up trains, amalgamated at Exmouth Junction from shorter workings from all over the west, were shorter and not express rated and often added stock going east. Presumably the vans were recycled over a period of days not daily down and then back up the same day.

So perhaps your up to London Kings Cross Goods were also smaller trains with the stock being split for distribution wherever around the south east and amalgamated at The X on return, to form the express rated Scotch Goods? Just a thought.

Phil

The Down was train 266, and was fully laden. The first V2, Green Arrow, was used to launch the original service pre war, and it became known as the Scotch goods over the years, I believe. The name was not officially recognised, and I suspect that someone has just decided to use the same name for an Up service from Scotland. I've not seen mention of an Up train anywhere except in a few photo captions.

 

266 Down had vans, containers and highs by 1958, and was indeed fully fitted. Bill Hoole could whisk them along rather quickly.

[jazzer]

23 minutes ago, great northern said:

The Down was train 266, and was fully laden. The first V2, Green Arrow, was used to launch the original service pre war, and it became known as the Scotch goods over the years, I believe. The name was not officially recognised, and I suspect that someone has just decided to use the same name for an Up service from Scotland. I've not seen mention of an Up train anywhere except in a few photo captions.

 

266 Down had vans, containers and highs by 1958, and was indeed fully fitted. Bill Hoole could whisk them along rather quickly.

 Yes that answers Phils question and is my understanding as well.   

 

Th e train was loaded up to a maximum of 50 wagons which could mean anything up to 750 tons behind the tender, which was one reason for pacific haulage in later years as opposed to a V2, The train was part of the accelerated services from 1956, and its selling point was that goods could be delivered to KX by road up to 2 hours before mid -afternoon departure ( or sometimes 30 minutes before in the case of containers) and be in Edinburgh , Glasgow or Dundee the following morning or Aberdeen the following afternoon.

 

 With regard to Bill Hoole there is a well documented account of him getting a late start , then averaging 75 mph between Hitchin and Huntingdon before getting stopped with a hot axle box on one of the wagons.  On another occasion he allegedly got signal checked when he caught the Talisman up ! 

Edited April 25, 2019 by jazzer

[great northern]

Lots of crash bang wallop on the golf course this afternoon, and that was the weather, as well as us. We were very lucky to be right next to a shed for shelter as the worst storm erupted. Memo to self, ask the Greens staff to do the necessary roof repairs tomorrow. Later, safely in the clubhouse, we watched a spectacular hailstorm, and a lightning strike very close which b*****ed up the lights and the till, so we could not pay for our drinks.

 

Here is a venerable C12, nearing the end of its days, and having a nice rest in the morning sun.

 

 

 

The other fellow then seems to have got from one end of the roof to the other without falling through, and got another picture of the not the Up Scotch goods.

 

 

[Mallard60022]

20 minutes ago, jazzer said:

 Yes that answers Phils question and is my understanding as well.   

 

Th e train was loaded up to a maximum of 50 wagons which could mean anything up to 750 tons behind the tender, which was one reason for pacific haulage in later years as opposed to a V2, The train was part of the accelerated services from 1956, and its selling point was that goods could be delivered to KX by road up to 2 hours before mid -afternoon departure ( or sometimes 30 minutes before in the case of containers) and be in Edinburgh , Glasgow or Dundee the following morning or Aberdeen the following afternoon.

 

 With regard to Bill Hoole there is a well documented account of him getting a late start , then averaging 75 mph between Hitchin and Huntingdon before getting stopped with a hot axle box on one of the wagons.  On another occasion he allegedly got signal checked when he caught the Talisman up ! 

That makes me want to check my books to see what 'my' down fitted express was. Empty does seem stupid and \I suspect it may well have been goods going west and, as I mentioned, perishables and meat going east and I shall have to check on those workings which must have been required to be fast to get to the London markets.

Phil 

[great northern]

38 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

That makes me want to check my books to see what 'my' down fitted express was. Empty does seem stupid and \I suspect it may well have been goods going west and, as I mentioned, perishables and meat going east and I shall have to check on those workings which must have been required to be fast to get to the London markets.

Phil 

  Even back then there would surely have been a good effort to get maximum revenue earning out of stock, so I reckon that only specialist wagons would have travelled empty. There seems little point in sending coal to London and then back up to where it came from!  Anyway, no-one knows what is in our vans, do they? Not until someone invents the fish smell anyway. Though the word fish on the outside might be a bit of a clue, I suppose.

[St Enodoc]

15 hours ago, Martin S-C said:

Here we go then. Prepare yourselves for a sorry excuse for a railway...

 

First looking south.

 

 

 

 

 

Then the middle.

 

And north.

 

 

 

The Lady in Red is definitely giving you a Look - presumably for stepping the wrong side of the yellow line.

[great northern]

This morning we have a special treat, a front end view of not one Thompson Pacific, but two!

 

 

 

Then we skip on a few minutes, during which the pilot has brought in the five set for the 1033 KX, and 60514 has backed on.

 

 

 

Must do something about that lamp.

[cctransuk]

1 minute ago, great northern said:

 

 

 

 

Someone's going to have to 'have a word' with the porter about overloading platform trollies!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[great northern]

38 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Someone's going to have to 'have a word' with the porter about overloading platform trollies!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

The porter has asked me to point out that he can't have been responsible, as he is superglued to the platform. I'll have to get someone else to deal with it.

[Martin S-C]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

The Lady in Red is definitely giving you a Look - presumably for stepping the wrong side of the yellow line.

Ladies in Red can give me that look(*) anytime they like - on the proviso its followed up by appropriate action.

(*) I am interpreting "that look" in a different manner to you here, I imagine.

[St Enodoc]

28 minutes ago, Martin S-C said:

Ladies in Red can give me that look(*) anytime they like - on the proviso its followed up by appropriate action.

(*) I am interpreting "that look" in a different manner to you here, I imagine.

There is, in my experience, a huge difference between a look and a Look.

[MrDobilina]

On 11/04/2019 at 09:16, great northern said:

Early golf today, so off we go. B17 Tottenham Hotspur has sneaked into Platform 6 with a local from March. As always, a B17 merits a close look.

 

 

 

 

Oh lord, I know what my girlfiend (whose entire family are spurs fans including one train enthusiast) will actually WANT me to find next! Not that I can actualyl find any of tottenham hotspur for sale anywhere....

Will keep my eye out! 

Beautiful shot as always.