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great northern
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3 hours ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

 

Has anything changed?

 

Paul

No, and that is the chilling thing, isn't it? Why do we never learn?

 

Well over 30 years ago, I became a civil servant, whether I wanted to or not. We retained our local management though for a few years, and it was bearable, despite the fact that the ratio of fee earners to bureacrats changed dramatically and very quickly. However, word got around that Nottingham was a happy and committed workplace, but one which ignored a lot of the set rules to achieve that desirable state. Result? Outsiders were sent to "sort the place out", and they did. Within a few months I went from looking forward to going to work to counting the days to retirement. The outsiders were not people who actually did the day job themseves. Of course not.

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3 hours ago, great northern said:

No, and that is the chilling thing, isn't it? Why do we never learn?

 

Well over 30 years ago, I became a civil servant, whether I wanted to or not. We retained our local management though for a few years, and it was bearable, despite the fact that the ratio of fee earners to bureacrats changed dramatically and very quickly. However, word got around that Nottingham was a happy and committed workplace, but one which ignored a lot of the set rules to achieve that desirable state. Result? Outsiders were sent to "sort the place out", and they did. Within a few months I went from looking forward to going to work to counting the days to retirement. The outsiders were not people who actually did the day job themseves. Of course not.

 

This will ring true for any local government engineer during the latter half of the twentieth century. 'We' were given tasks and budgets, and allowed to get on and produce the desired outcome by the most practicable and efficient means that 'we' could devise.

 

Then, around the time on the Millenium, 'they' perceived that 'we' were 'unaccountable'; they found it difficult to 'prove' that 'we' were working efficiently. Moreover, 'they' needed bigger budgets to fund more of 'them', and so it was declared that 'we' were inefficient and 'we' had our budgets slashed. At the same time, 'their' budgets were greatly increased because 'they' were going to need much more personnel in order to make 'us' efficient.

 

Fast forward a few years, and the budgets allocated to 'us' were tiny; 'we' had a whole raft of procedures to fulfil before 'we' could actually do anything productive, and then a further raft of procedures to fulfil in order to 'prove' that 'we'd' done the job 'efficiently'. Needless to say, by the time that I threw in the towel, procedures cost many times the value of the work done, and 'we' were being accused of being even more 'inefficient'.

 

I'm SO glad that I'm out of the 'mad-house' !!! (No slight intended to anything other than local government 'administration').

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited by cctransuk
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40 minutes ago, great northern said:

No, and that is the chilling thing, isn't it? Why do we never learn?

 

Well over 30 years ago, I became a civil servant, whether I wanted to or not. We retained our local management though for a few years, and it was bearable, despite the fact that the ratio of fee earners to bureacrats changed dramatically and very quickly. However, word got around that Nottingham was a happy and committed workplace, but one which ignored a lot of the set rules to achieve that desirable state. Result? Outsiders were sent to "sort the place out", and they did. Within a few months I went from looking forward to going to work to counting the days to retirement. The outsiders were not people who actually did the day job themseves. Of course not.


So familiar Gilbert, and not just in the public sector. 

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I find it quite amazing when watching "The Chase", or similar quizzes on TV, that so many contestants are managers (and usually at a youngish inexperienced age, and often scruffy too). Doesn't anyone actually have a job making things any more?

 

Stewart

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19 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

This will ring true for any local government engineer during the latter half of the twentieth century. 'We' were given tasks and budgets, and allowed to get on and produce the desired outcome by the most practicable and efficient means that 'we' could devise.

 

Then, around the time on the Millenium, 'they' perceived that 'we' were 'unaccountable'; they found it difficult to 'prove' that 'we' were working efficiently. Moreover, 'they' needed bigger budgets to fund more of 'them', and so it was declared that 'we' were inefficient and 'we' had our budgets slashed. At the same time, 'their' budgets were greatly increased because 'they' were going to need much more personnel in order to make 'us' efficient.

 

Fast forward a few years, and the budgets allocated to 'us' were tiny; 'we' had a whole raft of procedures to fulfil before 'we' could actually do anything productive, and then a further raft of procedures to fulfil in order to 'prove' that 'we'd' done the job 'efficiently'. Needless to say, by the time that I threw in the towel, procedures cost many times the value of the work done, and 'we' were being accused of being even more 'inefficient'.

 

I'm SO glad that I'm out of the 'mad-house' !!! (No slight intended to anything other than locoal government 'administration').

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

What a brilliant summary John. I don't think I've ever seen it summed up so well.

 

Mind you, when we were local government we had 48 fee earners to 5 adminstrators. By the time we had been civil servants for a year we had less of the former, and  at least ten times as many of the latter. They of course had exclusive use of the plushest wing of the complex. This was 1986/7 though, so presumably local government hadn't caught up yet.

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Just to go back to management, (sorry), the final straw for me that got me to quit teaching was the huge number of folk who could walk into my classroom, unannounced, with a clipboard, and watch me teach.

Then, at the end of the lesson, they'd tell me I wasn't  doing this, that, or the other, right.

But on being asked how it should have been done, their response was always the same: " That's not for me to tell you, that's for you to find out".

And yet I knew that not one of them could have done my job.

And that included the odious OFSTED inspectors, and so-called advisors.

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57 minutes ago, JeffP said:

Just to go back to management, (sorry), the final straw for me that got me to quit teaching was the huge number of folk who could walk into my classroom, unannounced, with a clipboard, and watch me teach.

Then, at the end of the lesson, they'd tell me I wasn't  doing this, that, or the other, right.

But on being asked how it should have been done, their response was always the same: " That's not for me to tell you, that's for you to find out".

And yet I knew that not one of them could have done my job.

And that included the odious OFSTED inspectors, and so-called advisors.

Recognise that particular situation in every, single way you describe. The Headteacher and or 'management team' at that particular school of yours should have been receiving retraining mate.

Trains are so much more well behaved and they tend not to tell you what to do.

P

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19 minutes ago, Mallard60022 said:

Recognise that particular situation in every, single way you describe. The Headteacher and or 'management team' at that particular school of yours should have been receiving retraining mate.

Trains are so much more well behaved and they tend not to tell you what to do.

P


having just rediscovered the tales of Thomas the Tank with my granddaughter, I’m not sure that Sir Topham Hat would agree with your last statement Phil,

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2 hours ago, JeffP said:

Just to go back to management, (sorry), the final straw for me that got me to quit teaching was the huge number of folk who could walk into my classroom, unannounced, with a clipboard, and watch me teach.

Then, at the end of the lesson, they'd tell me I wasn't  doing this, that, or the other, right.

But on being asked how it should have been done, their response was always the same: " That's not for me to tell you, that's for you to find out".

And yet I knew that not one of them could have done my job.

And that included the odious OFSTED inspectors, and so-called advisors.

OFSTED seems to be having a re-think. Sherry's daughter, a well-regarded (yes, of course we would say that) deputy head for the last decade, has recently had an initial week's course as part of training to be an OFSTED inspector. If she does inspections, it will be in parallel with her regular duties. This seems to be the new slant, which presumably puts teachers in touch with other teachers, rather than those who had side-stepped teaching, and were  thus poachers turned gamekeepers.  

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6 hours ago, JeffP said:

Just to go back to management, (sorry), the final straw for me that got me to quit teaching was the huge number of folk who could walk into my classroom, unannounced, with a clipboard, and watch me teach.

Then, at the end of the lesson, they'd tell me I wasn't  doing this, that, or the other, right.

But on being asked how it should have been done, their response was always the same: " That's not for me to tell you, that's for you to find out".

And yet I knew that not one of them could have done my job.

And that included the odious OFSTED inspectors, and so-called advisors.

 

Hi JeffP

 

I feel your pain, and how ones like you can be a teacher today with kids attitudes and all the rights they have, I don't know You copes personally.

 

Regarding that same attached note... 

The building site is just the same with that word H&S and for the younger generation that Health & Safety, they come on to the building site unannounced and watch you.  Like you say with no one to say who they are, and watch you do your job as a craftsman would do to the best of your ability. H&S would say, " I'm not here to tell you how to do your job, I'm here to see that you have done the job properly "... eh... WHAT...!  The Craftsman as done minimum 3 years at best or more like 5 to 7 years as apprenticeship to learn the skills they need to be a true craftsmanship and H&S stand there like they know how to do a Dove Tail Joint, yet... I bet you if you ask them what joint is that, they wouldn't have a clue and that's why I totally understand you, with all the standards we have today for what.... to create new unwanted jobs out of thin air and these companies make tons of money from it to, its sickening. 

 

It is Health & Safety as and when it suits..., is what the craftsman would say about it all, and I totally agree.

 

Regards

Jamie

 

 

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On 24/01/2020 at 12:03, bigwordsmith said:

 

A couple of months ago one of my Facebook Friends, a former client who is a real friend as well, shared this with me. I think it is very apposite to the discussion!

 

 

Screenshot_2020-01-24_at_12_01_45.png

 

Brilliant and so true of business today...

 

Where would we be without Dave and without Dave, the job would never get done...

 

Regards

Jamie

 

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37 minutes ago, great northern said:

Tonight I have been celebrating the fact that I am no longer Chairman of the Golf Club. Before so doing though, a short glimmer of daylight allowed me to take a few photos. Only one got processed though, so here is Green Arrow with the 1230 Up Hull/Doncaster.

 

 

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Hi Gilbert

 

Does this mean you will have to find something new to moan about?

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9 hours ago, great northern said:

Tonight I have been celebrating the fact that I am no longer Chairman of the Golf Club. Before so doing though, a short glimmer of daylight allowed me to take a few photos. Only one got processed though, so here is Green Arrow with the 1230 Up Hull/Doncaster.

 

 

1019485780_18001.JPG.f2832c6dd99e55d90c6ef1add653df30.JPG

Hi Gilbert

 

A very nice composition to the photo of 60800, it’s just a-cured to me all the excellent photos you have published over the years but  I cannot remember seeing a photo of a Britannia class locomotive running on Peterborough North?

 

Regards

 

David

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