Sharp Stewart "Larger Seagull" preserved?

[S.A.C Martin]

Hi all,

 

Apologies if this has been brought up before. The Furness Railway operated a class of Sharp Stewart 4-4-0s, known colloquially as "Larger Seagulls" (or class K2), shown here:

 

 

The photograph is taken from here: Lindal's Furness Rail Page and is reproduced for educational reasons only.

 

Now, I was under the impression that this class was extinct. I was going over some drawings for a planned bodyshell kit I am thinking of making for myself, when a photograph on page 57 of Steam Railway magazine grabbed my attention. It shows this locomotive:

 

 

 

The photograph is taken from here: International Steam Page and is reproduced for educational reasons only.

 

Now - I can't be imagining this, can I? Surely the K2 and this, Sharp Stewart no.107, built for use in the Netherlands, are in fact the same class of locomotive, with detail differences? The similarities are startling. I know that quite a few locomotives still scattered around Europe have British counterparts, but I didn't quite expect to see one that looked so similar to (what I think) must be one and the same class.

 

Is this right, or wrong?

[Ohmisterporter]

Nice find Simon, two very elegant Victorian 4-4-0s in the British style. Whether or not they are the same class is debatable though. The Dutch engine is a slightly older design with what was becoming an old fashioned tender. They are both typical of the period, and many similar designs were produced by several builders. If you are planning to model one or the other I look forward to seeing it.

 

Geoff.

[The Stationmaster]

The Sharp Stewart built Dutch 1600 Class locos were delivered between 1889 and 1903. The tender might possibly not be the original although Beyer Peacock (who built considerable numbers of locos for Holland) were building tenders like that in 1889 as they appear in contemporary works 'official' photos behind locos built for the export market.

 

Must say teh redevloped Utrecht museum looks very inviting, albeit rather pricey at 14.50 Euros.

[ringo]

The Utrecht museum is well worth the cost of admission, I went there two years ago, and was very impressed with the quality of the site, and the standard of the presentation of the locos and stock is immacualte.

 

I spent many hours there, and try the moving coach thats actually standing still, its very freaky and your convinced that you are on the move, even though you know your standing still......bizzare!

 

R

[Adam]

Now - I can't be imagining this, can I? Surely the K2 and this, Sharp Stewart no.107, built for use in the Netherlands, are in fact the same class of locomotive, with detail differences? The similarities are startling. I know that quite a few locomotives still scattered around Europe have British counterparts, but I didn't quite expect to see one that looked so similar to (what I think) must be one and the same class.

 

Is this right, or wrong?

 

Well it's certainly a very similar design - though I suspect that the Dutch example has slightly larger wheels - note the relationship between the rear splasher and the cab. A very elegant machine, even if ugly inside cylindered 4-4-0s are a rare breed (Fowler and Maunsell came close however...).

 

Adam

[S.A.C Martin]

Thanks for your responses chaps (have been away at my sister's graduation, so was unable to log on and thank you earlier).

 

The two classes are incredibly similar, the more I look at them. Ignoring the tender (for the moment...more on that later), it's the front frames and the smokebox/boiler proportions that perhaps give the greatest clue to both of the engine's origins.

 

Sharp Stewart provided both railways with these 4-4-0s, but what perhaps surprises me most is that the design does not appear to be Sharp Stewart's own. A friend of mine passed this little tidbit onto me:

 

More interesting is Sharp Stewart's method of supplying the K2s

 

Apparently the order from the furness was simply for an express locomotive and Sharp Stewart presented them with the K1 and later the K2 from an "anonymous design from James Manson" (of GN&SR fame)

 

But Sharp Stewart had no proper affiliation with said railway and as such how they got that design is a mystery. Rumour has it they submitted a failed tender at some point and its possible the K1 design was derived from something they got out of that, but thats the only affiliation that they are known to have had in terms of submitting locomotives.

 

Its entirely possible the Series 1600 are a variant of the K1 or K2 design and were supplied as a solution to a brief instead of the railway themselves designing them.

 

Does anyone have a photograph of a Manson 4-4-0 they'd be willing to share, to add to the debate?! The history of this particular 4-4-0 seems to stretch out across the waters, after all

 

And some more pics of the 1600 class:

 

 

Now, this first one shows up something very interesting indeed! Compare to this photo:

 

 

Note that the top pic of the bottom image has the later extended smokebox fitted by the Furness Railway to certain members of the class K2.

 

Looking at the front of the frames, fore of the smokebox (and indeed, look at the relationship of the smokebox to the frames), we find the greatest similarities. Ignoring the chimney and dome - both can be differently shaped fittings, onto the same boiler - the proportions and shapes are uncanny. If it were not for the fact they were both built by Sharp Stewart, you would dismiss any likenesses as symptomatic of the generic 4-4-0 design brief.

 

Then of course, looking at the front bogie, we find the design replicated on the K2 that we find on the preserved 1600 class - coincidence?

 

The Dutch engine appears to have slightly larger driving wheels. However, this could be a "trick of proportions" - the smaller cab of the K2 making the splashers seem smaller there than the larger cab on the 1600 class.

 

Sean passed on this other pic as a link too - and there, we find the tender issue moot to some extent:

 

 

That is clearly an extremely similar tender to the Furness pattern - the only difference, as far as I can see, being in the lip at the top of the tank. Note the chimney too - a proper and unexpected dead ringer for the Furness K2's chimney!

 

The similarities are so strong, and the facts too. The same builder, possibly the same design for three different classes - the 1600, the G&SNR 4-4-0, and the Furness Railway K2?

 

The more I look at the photographs, the more I ponder on this one.

[S.A.C Martin]

LMS 14217

 

LMS 14194

 

The above link shows the Manson 4-4-0 - again, looking at the proportions of the frames/boiler/smokebox/wheels and ignoring the detail differences - wow

 

Is this the grandfather of the K2 class?