facing point lock operation

[The Stationmaster]

Not the worlds best image and you can just about make out the fouling/drive bars, fpl etc.

 

I have highlighted the drive end and the bolt fpl end. In order for the fpl to be moved the fouling/locking bar bar had to move up and over past the rail head.

 

 

I can't see any bars near any of the fouling points, have you got any pics which show the Fouling Points in greater or closer detail please?

[StaffsOatcake]

It wasn't one of the things that i took much notice off till later on in life. and by the time I was working with these things the ones at Leek Brook had been removed by my now good friend and mentor. The lines straight on go the Cheddleton and

 

 

The first image shows the set up at Chedleton again you can't see the bar as it was on the near rail (bolts can be seen) and you can see the drive rod in the distance and the fpl drive at the front. This bar was used to stop the signalman/shunter throwing the points under the train when it was been shunted into the yard.

 

I know you're going to tell me these are locking bars but in my part of the world they are referred to as fouling bars

[The Stationmaster]

It wasn't one of the things that i took much notice off till later on in life. and by the time I was working with these things the ones at Leek Brook had been removed by my now good friend and mentor. The lines straight on go the Cheddleton and

 

 

The first image shows the set up at Chedleton again you can't see the bar as it was on the near rail (bolts can be seen) and you can see the drive rod in the distance and the fpl drive at the front. This bar was used to stop the signalman/shunter throwing the points under the train when it was been shunted into the yard.

 

Yes, but have you got anything showing a fouling bar, or even - as in the lower of the two pics above - something which shows where there is one even if the actual bar isn't visible. I thought from what you had posted above that you have got a picture of one somewhere or have I misunderstood?

[beast66606]

Staffs,

 

The bar associated with an FPL is on the approach to the toe of a point, the bar prevents the FPL being returned as a vehicle literally stops the bar raising and thus locks the lever.

 

A clearance bar, as Stationmaster has said, is a similar device in its operation but is not connected with a FPL - at Hooton North for example there were bars withing the double junction to prevent the signalman accidentally changing the points with vehicles on them.

 

hth

[StaffsOatcake]

I'll have to go down to get a picture of the actual bar so you can see it all. I'm trying to find the images of the sidings at Leek Brook which were at one time fitted with a fouling bar connected to a fpl and a yellow disk signal.

[The Stationmaster]

Staffs,

 

The bar associated with an FPL is on the approach to the toe of a point, the bar prevents the FPL being returned as a vehicle literally stops the bar raising and thus locks the lever.

 

A clearance bar, as Stationmaster has said, is a similar device in its operation but is not connected with a FPL - at Hooton North for example there were bars withing the double junction to prevent the signalman accidentally changing the points with vehicles on them.

 

hth

 

Have you got a pic (or link) of the Hooton North one's please Beast, presumably they are just on the facer?

[flyingsignalman]

Have you got a pic (or link) of the Hooton North one's please Beast, presumably they are just on the facer?

 

 

I don't know of a photo but the box diagram shows them (literally) dotted all over the place (I'll have to scan it in to my computer - may take a while tho'). The signalmen called the box "Locking Bar Junction"

[Steve Taylor]

though veering a wee bitty off of the original topic, since locking bars are pertinent to the understanding of methods of locking points, here's some details of the locking bar at the north end of Grosmont on the NYMR.

here

apologies for the abstract human invasion - these were for notes on an authorised site visit.

here

crank base manufactured from a post crank mount.

here

here

here

Somewhere I have pictures of FPL and internals from Swithland which we are fitting out at present. As I'm away "on tour" I can't lay my hands on those but will add them to proceedings as soon as i find them.

 

 

Anyone got any idea why i'm no longer able to directly link to fotopic held images?

[meple]

Here is a lock from Bristol area.

[beast66606]

Have you got a pic (or link) of the Hooton North one's please Beast, presumably they are just on the facer?

 

As Keith says - photos of the box, yes, but nothing of the clearance bars - and it shut in 1973.

[StaffsOatcake]

Here is a lock from Bristol area.

 

 

It's a god knows what contraption designed and built in Swindon and fitted only by the GWR??

[flyingsignalman]

Here's a couple of photos of Hooton North.

The box from the slow lines.

 

The box diagram at the time of closure. The fouling bars are Nos 51,52,53.

 

A copy of the diagram; the original was dated 6.2.1946 but signal 8 under the down slow starter is a later addition. This layout lasted until the West Kirby lines were removed (Ca 1964).

 

As can be seen from the photo, the fouling bars were not very far from the box or out of the signalman's sight.

I hope the diagrams are clear enough to understand.

[The Stationmaster]

Here's a couple of photos of Hooton North.

The box from the slow lines.

 

The box diagram at the time of closure. The fouling bars are Nos 51,52,53.

 

A copy of the diagram; the original was dated 6.2.1946 but signal 8 under the down slow starter is a later addition. This layout lasted until the West Kirby lines were removed (Ca 1964).

 

As can be seen from the photo, the fouling bars were not very far from the box or out of the signalman's sight.

I hope the diagrams are clear enough to understand.

 

Plenty clear enough thanks Keith. Fascinating arrangement and in some odd - at first sight - places. Was it somewhere that trains had the habit of stopping foul of the junction/pointwork for some reason?

[flyingsignalman]

Plenty clear enough thanks Keith. Fascinating arrangement and in some odd - at first sight - places. Was it somewhere that trains had the habit of stopping foul of the junction/pointwork for some reason?

 

 

Not as far as I'm aware though it was a busy place; Hooton South box had a 128 lever frame.

The sidings at the top of the 2nd diagram were a small marshalling yard (about 5 roads), trains attaching and detaching traffic would be mainly in the down direction.

Trains from the Helsby or Chester directions that needed to run round did so in the fast and slow station platform lines between the North and South boxes.

[ForestPines]

It's a god knows what contraption designed and built in Swindon and fitted only by the GWR??

 

I recognise it, and where it is! It's one of the economical FPLs on the Bristol Harbour Railway, hence the rather complex and unusual look to it.

[The Stationmaster]

I recognise it, and where it is! It's one of the economical FPLs on the Bristol Harbour Railway, hence the rather complex and unusual look to it.

 

 

It also looks as if it might have been fitted with the drive from the wrong end (i.e from the heel and not the toe end) but that might possibly be because at wherever it came from there had been a facing point locking bar alongside the switch rails.

 

Definitely looks like quite an old design but I can't sort out whose design it is. I don't think it is a Prince's Lock - which seems to have been the most popular of the two economic lock designs used by the GWR - not they they appear to have lasted all that long notwithstanding the large scale use of them at Reading Mainline West c.1910). The most recent new installation of a Prince's Lock on the Western was at Reading in 1965 (as a result of a 'small' design error - someone forgot to include an FPL lever in a new ground frame ) and from what I have been told there was quite a game trying to find any WR staff who had any experience of such things even 'though they managed to delve out the necessary bits from Reading stores.

[John_Hughes]

It also looks as if it might have been fitted with the drive from the wrong end (i.e from the heel and not the toe end) but that might possibly be because at wherever it came from there had been a facing point locking bar alongside the switch rails.

 

Definitely looks like quite an old design but I can't sort out whose design it is. I don't think it is a Prince's Lock - which seems to have been the most popular of the two economic lock designs used by the GWR - not they they appear to have lasted all that long notwithstanding the large scale use of them at Reading Mainline West c.1910). The most recent new installation of a Prince's Lock on the Western was at Reading in 1965 (as a result of a 'small' design error - someone forgot to include an FPL lever in a new ground frame ) and from what I have been told there was quite a game trying to find any WR staff who had any experience of such things even 'though they managed to delve out the necessary bits from Reading stores.

 

A Pease Economical Point Lock I think, though I'm subject to correction on that!

[dave_long]

Here's a modern version taken down at Stechford a year or so ago. Slightly OT I know but hey.

 

 

Dave

[The Stationmaster]

Here's a modern version taken down at Stechford a year or so ago. Slightly OT I know but hey.

 

 

Dave

 

A modern version of what? Looks to me like an HW style point machine (now the national 'basic standard' I believe - albeit with a different maker's name on it) and with the back drives for the switch rails mounted in the four foot instead of on the outside.

 

Admittedly there is a kind of economic FPL inside the machine but we can't see anything of it.

[micknich2003]

Attached picture of a "Blacks" Economical Facing Point Lock as manufactured by Saxby & Farmer, and sometimes ref to as a "Butterfly Lock". Mick Nicholson.

[micknich2003]

Attached drawing of the LNER version of an "Economical Facing Point Lock". Mick Nicholson.

[scotcent]

I thought I understood these things, but perhaps I don't!

In the attached diagram, moving the FPL lever either way raises the bar / treadle, which can't be done if there are any wheels standing on it. However, what's to prevent the signalman pulling the lock out, and leaving it, then moving the points under a vehicle. (I know the signals would be locked at danger by the interlocking, but what about runaways spads etc?

 

I have a mental picture of the treadle being connected to the rodding which actually moved the point, so that the point blades could not be moved if a vehicle was stsnding on the treadle.

 

Allan F

[The Stationmaster]

I thought I understood these things, but perhaps I don't!

In the attached diagram, moving the FPL lever either way raises the bar / treadle, which can't be done if there are any wheels standing on it. However, what's to prevent the signalman pulling the lock out, and leaving it, then moving the points under a vehicle. (I know the signals would be locked at danger by the interlocking, but what about runaways spads etc?

 

I have a mental picture of the treadle being connected to the rodding which actually moved the point, so that the point blades could not be moved if a vehicle was stsnding on the treadle.

 

Allan F

 

If the locking bar isn't already down when a wheel passes over it it will be depressed by that wheel and thus force the facing point lock bolt into the port on the front stretcher bar, duly locking the point. This could well damage the rodding but the force generated by a passing wheel is likely - usually - to be greater than that which a Signalman could ever exert on the rodding so it wouldn't be surprising if it did go.

[scotcent]

The Stationmaster wrote:-

"If the locking bar isn't already down when a wheel passes over it it will be depressed by that wheel and thus force the facing point lock bolt into the port on the front stretcher bar, duly locking the point. This could well damage the rodding but the force generated by a passing wheel is likely - usually - to be greater than that which a Signalman could ever exert on the rodding so it wouldn't be surprising if it did go."

 

Thank you. I understand now. My misapprehension was that I thought the bar went up and over while the FPL was being moved. It hadn't clicked with me that it stays raised as long as the FPL is withdrawn.

 

Could I be right in my recollection of a bar connected to the point operating mechanism which went up and over as the points were moved? I'm going back over 50 years to Glasgow Buchanan St.

 

Allan F

[StaffsOatcake]

A modern version of what? Looks to me like an HW style point machine (now the national 'basic standard' I believe - albeit with a different maker's name on it) and with the back drives for the switch rails mounted in the four foot instead of on the outside.

 

Admittedly there is a kind of economic FPL inside the machine but we can't see anything of it.

 

In many places where they have concrete sleepers under the pway through points the back drives are been fitted in the four foot as the sleepers have a series of cast holes in them so when installing them you do spent hours destroying the sleeper ends