Bachmann announce Blue Pullman

[n-gauge]

ThaNk you Mr BachmaNN - at last a New loco / traiN which might eNcourage me to revive some of my older OO stock.

 

Please caN we have one in N gauge - I did ask Nicely at Christmas!

 

Hint mode off.

[Andy Y]

This i do not doubt Bob, but its funny how Bachmann say they are secretly working on this item, they spent a longtime dismissing the item, then someone else decides to produce it, then Bachmann suddenly decide to blow Heljans/Olivia's out of the water, may be the good thing is Heljan "may" decide to start upgrading some of their items on there models, i.e. better lights and better details & so on, and stop taking the mickey out of modellers for there money with substandard fittings and lighting.

 

I was making out the point of Bachmann "announcing & promising" and "delivering" are 2 different targets entirely.

 

I agree with your sentiments exactly. Personally I don't really understand why they felt it necessary (to the point of rubbing salt in the wound) by including statements like “we are aware of others announcing the possibility of producing this unit" and "We had decided to do so long before the recent announcement from a retailer." which unfortunately come across as pure playground tactics. Sadly It must as a result of this announcement and very unfortunately put the whole of the Olivia's project up in the air (Heljan were of course to produce it for them, not front it). It is good news, it is however sad that the outcome for the retailer is unlikely to be as good.

 

I'm uncomfortable with this element that has crept into this topic.

 

I was party to sufficient substantive information around the time of the OT announcement that matters were already progressing from this source. Maybe people can now read this into the comments I was making in that topic. The truth is that Bachmann were a damned sight further forward at that point in time than OT/Heljan were. I have had reliable comment from sources not too distant from that commissioned manufacturer that the commercial arrangements had not been signed off (or in one story even raised) at the point when the OT BP was being publicised. As ever existing manufacturers have a lot going on behind the scenes that is not in the public domain.

 

I do hope this means that OT can concentrate upon the EM1/2 projects rather than biting off more than is reasonably chewable.

 

I applaud the fact that Bachmann have brought this announcement forward from the date when it would have been more likely to come out (next Feb) to today so that people can make a balanced choice about where to spend their money.

 

If anything was a potential spoiling tactic it was that rumour which arose last week surrounding the old toolings.

[Buhar]

I think Bachmann were in a bit of a "no-win" in handling this issue. They have previously been criticised for speculative announcements and recent products have appeared within a more reasonable timeline, so they listened. They did indicate BP was not on their list, equally reasonable, as to say otherwise would have led to froth and moans about timescales. The DMU and EMU successes have clearly changed expectations about what will sell, so what was said two years ago doesn't hold in today's market.

 

When Olivia's/Heljan made their announcement Bachmann could have kept quiet and then (probably) knocked them out through sales, incurring everyone's wrath, with good reason. How to word the announcement was difficult and I think they did OK on that. I suspect they had a quiet word with O/H in advance of this and I hope O/H have not had too much of a financial hit. Bachmann will deliver and it will probably be very good.

 

There is bound to be a risk of duplication as prototypes get fewer and managing that has be part of anyone's buniness plan. Firms also have to be cautious of anti-competitive practices which makes carving up the prototypes between them more than a little risky.

[Pixie]

Ace - It's nice to see a firm announcment of intentions and I've got a lot more trust in Bachmann to bring a high quality model, especially if it's up to the standard of the Prototype Deltic or Irish 141.

 

Now, if they could do a reverse blue/grey one I'll be like a dog with two... 'sausages'.

 

Pix

[Andy Y]

Now, if they could do a reverse blue/grey one I'll be like a dog with two... 'sausages'.

 

Better get your extra bits grafted in due course then.

 

 

 

[Ian J.]

Interesting news I don't need one but if my job/finances at the time allow it then I might get one as an exhibition piece.

 

As for other stock to fill the froth gap, how about the 4REP/4TC combination...? ;)

[amdaley]

I agree with your sentiments exactly. Personally I don't really understand why they felt it necessary (to the point of rubbing salt in the wound) by including statements like “we are aware of others announcing the possibility of producing this unit" and "We had decided to do so long before the recent announcement from a retailer." which unfortunately come across as pure playground tactics. Sadly It must as a result of this announcement and very unfortunately put the whole of the Olivia's project up in the air (Heljan were of course to produce it for them, not front it). It is good news, it is however sad that the outcome for the retailer is unlikely to be as good.

 

I think I have to agree with this as well. It may well be a case of the bully beating the smaller guy down but Olivia's have contributed to this greatly by the fashion in which they ran their own launch.Their launch of the Blue Pullman was amateurish & poorly thought out. I said on this or some other forum that I thought Olivia's were fishing in the market to see what possible support might be out there for the project. If they had looked at all the wish lists on the various forums they would have seen the support out there for the project & could have done their research & pricing in private before making any announcement. It was a bad sign when you couldn't even get a price for the units. This put a lot of people off putting down any kind of deposit.I also said elsewhere that I was surprised that Bachmann hadn't had a go at the Blue Pullman. Now I know I wish Olivia's could still produce their Pullman but I can't see it happening now as in the long run monopolies are no good for anyone.

[Hugh Flynn]

Hugh, Bachmann are about the only people actually getting stuff out at the moment!

Sure they had a few problems, but they appear to have seriously got their act together in the last few years. Additionally they are running a very ambitious programme and are making supreme efforts from what I can observe to get the products as right as possible before release. Surely the 4 CEP and Autoballaster are evidence enough of the validity of such a policy. It certainly bids well for the 105 and the A2, both of which I'm looking forward to immensely.

 

Dave.

 

 

Dave

its just me feeling for a small player thats been railroaded by a big company.

The thought that Bachmann have jumped on the band wagon after seeing the interest this model has achived

When they could have announced it before others made a start?

 

Hugh

[CullingworthGNR]

Great to see it finally announced as a standard release. I'll never afford the £300 but it'll be great to clear it from the top of the froth list. If Hornby do a Railroad version I am much more likely to buy that, and model Fallowfield station as it was in 1960!

 

Why do many people seem to respond with - 'Great, now what we need next is X,Y and Z'. Why can't we just be happy that yet another new product has been annnounced?

[Guest Max Stafford]

Dave

its just me feeling for a small player thats been railroaded by a big company.

The thought that Bachmann have jumped on the band wagon after seeing the interest this model has achived

When they could have announced it before others made a start?

 

Hugh

 

Hugh, I understand the point you're making here although I suspect that Bachmann may have been working quietly on this project for some considerable time, longer than Olivia's probably. This appears to be a newish policy due to criticism over long lead times in the past and certainly the 3MT is a case in point. I believe it was well advanced when announced. The O4 also appeared to have a short lead time from announcement.

Even if not so, the big 'player - small player' scenario you suggest is nothing at all new in business. Yes it's unethical, but that's business however unfair and it goes on all the time out there.

 

Not that I'm trying to justify such practices, don't imagine that for a minute.

 

Dave.

[Dave Gas Cupboard]

Fantastic news that Bachmann are producing the Blue Pullman. Ive had my old set for 46 years, so its time it was upgraded.

 

As a fellow model shop owner, I hope that this decision doesn’t hurt Olivia’s Trains, they should be applauded for taking the plunge. I dont think they should be belittled in the way they handled the launch. I wish I had the balls & the money to try something like that.

 

Well done Bachmann & Olivias

 

 

Dave

The Gas Cupboard

[S.A.C Martin]

Dave

its just me feeling for a small player thats been railroaded by a big company.

The thought that Bachmann have jumped on the band wagon after seeing the interest this model has achived

When they could have announced it before others made a start?

 

Hugh

 

Hugh, did you miss Andy Y's latest round of posts?

 

It's a case of first off with an announcement doesn't necessarily equate to a product.

 

Remember the Royal Scot models - both Bachmann and Hornby? Bachmann announced theirs well before Hornby but were pipped to the post at release, ending in Bachmann canning the 00 version but making the N gauge version for Farish.

 

There's a key difference here.

 

Bachmann have set a price on the unit from the outset. On that basis, I preordered the Blue Pullman from Bachmann. There was no such commitment from Olivia's Trains.

 

Personally speaking I feel this could be a blessing for them. Stop the project now, before metal is cut, and focus on the electrics for a guaranteed seller.

[Baby Deltic]

Just pre-ordered one. One was seen on the ECML after all. Hopefully someone will do a class 125 and 127.

[Dan Griffin]

oh i get it now, the hints a certain pop mogul were dropping at the drs open day!! brilliant news. cant wait. so if the other posts about hornbys bp are true, we will have a top end unit from Bachmann/Heljan and a budget range one in the form of the old triang units. what a great time to be in the hobby.

[Legend]

Well done Bachmann!

 

Hopefully Olivias trains/Heljan will now be able to devote their attention to the 76/77 project and we will all win. Rather than being a spoiling tactic by Bachmann I think it was wise to bring forward the announcement so that people know what choices they have in advance. By not releasing this information now, surely more damage would have been done to the Olivia/Heljan project when they did announce it.

 

I still wouldn't rule out Hornby from a Railroad release of the old model though (just as they've done with 9F against Bachmann)

[The Stationmaster]

Well it doesn't float my boat but I'm glad to see for the sake of those who are keen on it that Bachmann have revealed their plans because you're now facing a known quantity at what looks like a very reasonable price, and it's being sold how it should be - as a train. And hopefully it will now allow OT/Heljan to concentrate on getting out a really good EM1.

 

I meanwhile found something much more up my street from Bachmann in Kernow's newsletter today - and no doubt there'll be a thread about that elsewhere (an 04 with a proper top feed, yum, yum).

 

No changes to my Hornby froth list for Christmas - a Pullman set still sits there ... tehehe .... but my favoured piece of railway doesn't have enough rails for it

[robertcwp]

That would be good. However, there is a huge family of Modernisation Plan era DMUs for which there is no good RTR model, namely the long-frame suburban units: Classes 115/116/117/118/127. All we have is the 30-year old and rather poor by today's standards Lima 117 effort.

Oops, forgot about the other 125.

 

If Bachmann go on to do the 8-car sets as well as the 6-car ones in final form with jumpers, this will give Blue Pullman fans the opportunity to model the hybrid sets that ran in the final 18 months or so of operations, by which time all sets were a mix of vehicles from 6-car and 8-car units, such as these two:

 

Bristol Pullman

South Wales Pullman

[the fuzzler]

I'm uncomfortable with this element that has crept into this topic.

 

I was party to sufficient substantive information around the time of the OT announcement that matters were already progressing from this source.

 

Well, of course us mere mortals weren't to know that, were we ? Thank you for pointing that out as an "independent observer".

 

Now, this B P is of no interest to me, but as a purchaser of models, I am glad bachmamn are doing this as their track history is far better than Heljan's. I'm still petrified that my expensive Heljan ltd ed diesel models will go the same self destructive route as some of their 47s seem to have done.

 

Plus there is a better chance that us N dabblers could get a BP produced via Farish.

 

And anyway, I thought talk of bpullmans was enough to get you barred on here. Whats the next taboo then, says he adding a class 185 request to the pile ?

[Guest 838rapid]

Why would you want a 185 Fuzzler???

 

Surely more chance to get a south route 170??

 

Whoops forgot they dont want to do one of them

[the fuzzler]

Well something needs to be added as "froth of the month" now that the bloody b-p (yawn) has finally been cracked

 

And hey, what if Olivia decide to carry on ? Someone else in an Andy y type role may be equally privy to the Olivia b-p being 2 months from production.......!

 

I still buy the sour grapes story though. I am sure Bachmann have previously gone on the record to say "never" to the b-p.

 

Weve been here before. The manufacturers can't collude thanks to competition law, and it must be a difficult judgement to "come out" and announce a model. I've previously complained that bachmanns conveniently long lead times were a rouse to "bagsy" everything before others could release a model, but they've improved a lot since the 150s difficult gestation.

 

Still feel sorry for Olivia though.

[Pennine MC]

I was making out the point of Bachmann "announcing & promising" and "delivering" are 2 different targets entirely.

I dont wish to prolong the agony here (especially as Andy has already commented), but as a point of comparison, that comment begins to look faintly ridiculous when set against the degree of confidence engendered by Olivia's handling of their BP project. Whether Bachmann's products are late or not doesnt really enter into it - they always do appear eventually, and with this one, you're sure of getting a full train and without laying a penny as a deposit - which cant be said for OTs, however well intentioned they may be.

 

I still buy the sour grapes story though. I am sure Bachmann have previously gone on the record to say "never" to the b-p.

 

Did you actually read the OP?:

 

Graham continued “we first looked at this famous train some years ago and at the time we did not consider it viable. However the market has changed considerably over the past two years and we felt the time was right to dust off our plans

Now that's not 'never', is it?

[YesTor]

I'm sorry Bob, Olivia's have no one to blame but themselves. The launch of their product was a total disaster with so many questions left unanswered that it left the field wide open for one of the major players.

 

I totally agree.

 

 

Hornby & Bachmann have had their chances and decided against it. It just smacks of spoiling someone elses party.

 

That's called business!

[johnd]

Hugh, Bachmann are about the only people actually getting stuff out at the moment!

Sure they had a few problems, but they appear to have seriously got their act together in the last few years. Additionally they are running a very ambitious programme and are making supreme efforts from what I can observe to get the products as right as possible before release. Surely the 4 CEP and Autoballaster are evidence enough of the validity of such a policy. It certainly bids well for the 105 and the A2, both of which I'm looking forward to immensely.

 

Dave.

 

Still waiting for the green class 40 with sound now when was that announced 2009 if my memory is correct and i believe it is likely to be 2011 sometime in the middle as they are re en gineering the chassis, hope we will be able to control front (white) rear (red) and cab control lights from a decoderr if you use DCC.

[beast66606]

Well something needs to be added as "froth of the month" now that the bloody b-p (yawn) has finally been cracked

 

Not really, we can just discuss facts rather than fiction.

 

And hey, what if Olivia decide to carry on ? Someone else in an Andy y type role may be equally privy to the Olivia b-p being 2 months from production.......!

 

It's a part of life that some know more than others in certain circumstances.

 

I still buy the sour grapes story though. I am sure Bachmann have previously gone on the record to say "never" to the b-p.

 

In that case you probably believe politicians, I seriously wonder how many of you forget that to the manufacturers this is their business and not "toy" trains - they will produce whatever they think will sell and make them money, it's not a school yard.

 

Weve been here before. The manufacturers can't collude thanks to competition law, and it must be a difficult judgement to "come out" and announce a model. I've previously complained that bachmanns conveniently long lead times were a rouse to "bagsy" everything before others could release a model, but they've improved a lot since the 150s difficult gestation.

 

Maybe you would like to provide some evidence that the lead times were "convenient" - or are you merely speculating ?

 

Still feel sorry for Olivia though.

 

You would be feeling a lot sorrier if Bachmann had either announced the BP in February or even worse just brought it out, maybe a couple of days before the Olivia's one.

 

This is business - some would do well to remember that.

[Dagworth]

A full-coach heavyweight power unit in one of the centre coaches is my bet and with power-connected bar couplers as well.

 

Drive System in power car

 

I took Andy's posting to mean that the motor would be in one of the power cars, not a centre vehicle.

 

Andi