Four Wheeled Wagons

[warringtonbankquay]

In a moment of idle thought it occurred to me that we are heading towards the end of the four wheeled wagon in everyday use.

 

With the comparatively recent influx of bogie wagon types for infrastructure, timber, cement, bitumen/petroleum and aggregates then it must be unlikely that any four wheel types will be built in the future.

 

Presumably higher capacity and better ride with less track wear and higher speed capability spells the end for the four wheelers.

 

Apart from MEAs, VGAs and VDAs and some infrastructure types, what other four wheelers is in everyday use?

 

Chris

[Miss Prism]

I think it reflects freight being increasingly concentrated on bulk products, for which bogie vehicles makes sense. Interestingly, there has been a considerable increase in 4-wheel passenger stock over the last generation or so.

[eastwestdivide]

I should think there's also relatively few places left where the infrastructure (sidings, terminals etc) couldn't cope with a bogie wagon.

 

We'll be getting nostalgic soon for the sound of bonkbonkbonk-bonkbonkbonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk-bonk

(which is a Co-Co loco on a rake of HAAs on jointed track, obviously)

[modfather]

ttx series tanks, we couldn't handle bogie tank wagons on depot, they'd take up too much room

[roythebus]

With all that bonking going on, it sounds more like a smutty video!

[Jenny Emily]

I think the question that would provide an insight into the end of four wheel wagons would be: "which freight facilities cannot use anything else?". I suppose new facilities tend to have generous spacing and track radii that don't prohibit bogie wagons. As time rolls on, older facilities will close or be upgraded. I think as long as there is a need for four wheel wagons they will be around. I don't see why the type would be prevented from new designs appearing in the future should a business need arise for them.

 

If the government is serious about getting traffic - and in particular frieght - off the roads and onto railways*, then lower capacity wagons may well make a comeback. On the otherhand, containerisation, it could be argued, would eventually remove the need for smaller wagons as everything could be carried in demountable containers on container flats facilitating easy interchange between road, rail and sea.

 

*They talk a lot, but as is usual, it rarely seems to pass from hot air to reality.

[eastwestdivide]

With all that bonking going on, it sounds more like a smutty video!

I wondered if the nanny filter would blank it out.

 

ttx series tanks, we couldn't handle bogie tank wagons on depot, they'd take up too much room

 

Does that apply to most depots or just some? And how come depots can handle the length of a 66 for example, but not a bogie tank? Would the discharge facilities need rearrangement for bogie tanks?

(and who is "we" by the way?!)

tanks in advance.

[BernardTPM]

Presumably higher capacity and better ride with less track wear and higher speed capability spells the end for the four wheelers.

 

That does not necessarily apply; the Research Department at Derby made in-depth studies of rail-wheel-suspension interaction in the '60s and went through a whole series of wagon suspension designs (the HSFV series) that optimised ride and minimised track wear. One of the critical factors is 'yaw' which allows a vehicle to 'steer' round curves. In fact some bogie types, notably the old-fashioned 'three-piece' (like the junk EWS brought in) cause more wear than advanced 4-wheel suspensions due to their propensity to 'lozenge' i.e. the sides angling under load, increasing flange contact. Of course, this would not apply to advanced bogies like the LTF types.

As to loading, four-wheel P.O. wagons enjoyed something of a revival in the '70s with the introduction of 25 ton axle-loading 'pedestal' suspension, though Derby were somewhat dismissive of their performance; they certainly weren't 'low track force' hardware! 25 tons (25.5 tonnes) remains the maximum axle loading.

Four wheelers were also cheaper to build, even with advanced suspension. Not that Railtrack or their ilk ever worried about cost...

[BernardTPM]

IWould the discharge facilities need rearrangement for bogie tanks?

 

The classic 100 ton TEA tanks were designed to have the same discharge points as two 45t TTA tanks coupled together thus avoiding that pitfall. I suspect the latest TEAs are generally the same.

[Glorious NSE]

Apart from MEAs, VGAs and VDAs and some infrastructure types, what other four wheelers is in everyday use?

 

In everyday use nowadays but *Not* including infrastructure:

 

TTA - already mentioned - all depot fuel from Fawley goes out in ESSO TTAs, some BP flows in Scotland, some from Lindsey for DBS also

TUA - depot fuel from Lindsey for DBS, mud oil from Aberdeen

PAA - Sand traffic

PCA - Cement traffic from Peak Forest (RMC) Earles, Oxwellmains (Blue Circle) Ketton, Clitheroe (Castle) - Alumina from North Blyth

PGA - Aggregates

PHA - Aggregates (self discharge train wagons)

PNA - Plasmor blockfreight

CDA - China clay on local trips to Fowey

IVA/IZA - Single/Twin cargowaggon

IFA - Transfesa intermodal flats

IFA - STVA 4 unit vehicle flats

IPA - Assorted STVA car carriers, single and bilevel in variously 1, 2 and 4 unit sets

OAA - Concrete blocks from the mendips

OCA - MOD traffic

REA - Runner wagons for steel traffic

SSA - Scrap traffic

SEA/SPA - Wire coil traffic

 

I'd take VDA's off your first list as well, don't think there have been any of them in revenue use for several years.

[eastwestdivide]

Good list Glorious,

 

So among those, which are the newest built - a lot look to me like BR-era builds (including most of the P-series codes)?

Or to put it another way, have they stopped building 4-wheel wagons (from new, discounting rebuilds), and if so, when was the last?

[Glorious NSE]

Yes lots of it is "legacy" equipment and most likely not the weapon of choice *if* they were doing new build now - having said that if you assume an arbitrary 40 year service life much of it has a decade or more life left.

 

Although the TTAs especially are 1960s wagons, so if you apply an arbitrary 40 year rule they are life expired already!

 

I think the most recent on the list will be some of the IPA car carriers, at least some of which are from the early 1990s (early channel tunnel days) - as a load of cars/vans is relatively lightweight I suspect any replacement (from around 2033-ish if you are talking 40 years?) could follow a similar design assuming the rail network then is not radically different to now?

 

CDA's are from 1987 and may be amongst the newest "domestic" ones - they are also one which is tied into an unloading method designed specifically for that wagon type.

 

The only ones on that list I think are under threat in the short term are the sand PAAs (various trials have been going on with new wagons) and PGAs (DBS has a set or two of ex Redland ones working in the London area, but they seem to mostly be used "as needed")

 

I think most on that list are "safe" whilst the traffic they are used on runs - yes you could probably introduce more efficient designs for many of them but I suspect in many cases that would be of marginal benefit overall?

[Steven B]

PFA - low floor container flat - still in use by DRS & MOD.

 

There are probably a few brake vans knocking around somewhere too.

 

Happy modelling,

 

Steven B.

[Glorious NSE]

PFA - low floor container flat - still in use by DRS & MOD.

 

The MODA ones were up for sale last time I looked (along with their own 4 wheel vans, PDA ex BR AB stock) - and I haven't seen a MODA one in use for ages, but I think you're right DRS is still using some.

 

There are probably a few brake vans knocking around somewhere too.

 

This came up last week in another place, only two BR vans left on the network, and not sure whether they are actually in use or just in reserve - there are Sharks in use but i'd lump them under "infrastructure"

[James]

This came up last week in another place, only two BR vans left on the network, and not sure whether they are actually in use or just in reserve - there are Sharks in use but i'd lump them under "infrastructure"

 

And Sharks aren't brake vans now, they are just ballast ploughs. Ploughs don't always appear in possessions either now, RRVs are often used for this task now. It's a shame in some ways as they're quite good fun compared with shovelling ballast!

[eastwestdivide]

And Sharks aren't brake vans now, they are just ballast ploughs. Ploughs don't always appear in possessions either now, RRVs are often used for this task now. It's a shame in some ways as they're quite good fun compared with shovelling ballast!

Scuse my ignorance, is RRV a road-rail vehicle? Like that bulldozer effort that was parked near Leeds a while back?

[James]

Scuse my ignorance, is RRV a road-rail vehicle? Like that bulldozer effort that was parked near Leeds a while back?

 

I don't know what was parked near Leeds, but things like these -

 

http://www.ontrackplant.com/photos/tags/excavator

 

RRV does indeed stand for Roal Rail Vehicle - there are hundreds of RRV's in use on the railway of all sorts of types.

[modfather]

I wondered if the nanny filter would blank it out.

 

 

 

Does that apply to most depots or just some? And how come depots can handle the length of a 66 for example, but not a bogie tank? Would the discharge facilities need rearrangement for bogie tanks?

(and who is "we" by the way?!)

tanks in advance.

 

us is st phillips marsh. On depot although long vehicles get moved around, the tanks get bunged down whatever road is free ( and that's not much late at night) It's not through lack of clearance - just practicality

[warringtonbankquay]

With this week's derailment of PCA cement wagons in Sheffield, I thought I would revive this thread for a review.

 

Taking Glorious NSE's list from August 2010(!) as a starting point, I think this is the late 2020 situation (again excluding Infrastructure wagons):

 

TTA - already mentioned - all depot fuel from Fawley goes out in ESSO TTAs, some BP flows in Scotland, some from Lindsey for DBS also.  Still in use  for depot fuel to Freightliner Ipswich?

TUA - depot fuel from Lindsey for DBS, mud oil from Aberdeen

PAA - Sand traffic

PCA - Cement traffic from Peak Forest (RMC) Earles, Oxwellmains (Blue Circle) Ketton, Clitheroe (Castle) - Alumina from North Blyth

PFA - DRS Low Level Waste

PGA - Aggregates

PHA - Aggregates (self discharge train wagons)

PNA - Plasmor blockfreight

CDA - China clay on local trips to Fowey

IVA/IZA - Single/Twin cargowaggon

IFA - Transfesa intermodal flats

IFA - STVA 4 unit vehicle flats

IPA - Assorted STVA car carriers, single and bilevel in variously 1, 2 and 4 unit sets

OAA - Concrete blocks from the mendips

OCA - MOD traffic

REA - Runner wagons for steel traffic

SSA - Scrap traffic

SEA/SPA - Wire coil traffic

 

Any additions or corrections would be most welcome.

 

Chris

Edited November 14, 2020 by warringtonbankquay
CDA information corrected

[Steadfast]

CDA are still very much in use in Cornwall.

PCAs (Metalair type) are in use from Aberthaw to Westbury and Moorswater.

 

Jo

[Nick_Burman]

On 08/08/2010 at 17:19, warringtonbankquay said:

Presumably higher capacity and better ride with less track wear and higher speed capability spells the end for the four wheelers.

 

Also opens the possibility of using automatic couplings, when and if ever they are adopted. Two axle wagons simply don't run well without buffers.

 

Cheers Nicholas

[warringtonbankquay]

47 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

CDA are still very much in use in Cornwall.

PCAs (Metalair type) are in use from Aberthaw to Westbury and Moorswater.

 

Jo

Thanks Jo.  My mistake re the CDAs.

 

Chris

[pharrc20]

The RMC PCAs all went within the past few years so they can be scratched off the list now - many were in store at Peak Forest for a while.

 

Not sure if any MEAs or HEAs in traffic anymore. There was a small pool of HEAs put back into traffic for a flow a few years back.

 

Some of the ex Railtrack green PNA ballast wagons came back into use with the ballast cleaner - the whole fleet of 250 were in store at Long Marston prior to that. Not sure if still in service?

 

Cheers Paul 

[Railfreight1998]

14 hours ago, pharrc20 said:

Not sure if any MEAs or HEAs in traffic anymore. There was a small pool of HEAs put back into traffic for a flow a few years back.

 

(Flickr link - click for info)

 

MEAs still recently in use between Cardiff tidal and Masborough.

 

I think the HEAs were for B&Q gravel between Southampton and Mossend, around 2015.

 

 

Only the Prestwick fuel trains use the TTAs now, following the end of the Lairg and Fort William flows.

 

Cheers

[Glorious NSE]

Ipswich fuel flow moved to bogie tanks a couple of years back.

Are the PGAs definitely gone? There had been a bunch (ex Lafarge wagons) working in the South East a couple of years ago but I'm a little out of touch.