Heljan slow speed performance

[Jamie]

I have this evening been testing various bits of stock which have been worked on away from the layout.

 

One thing is apparent, and that is the on-off nature of the Heljan mechanisms in my 27s. They are wonderfully smooth and powerful once on the go, but start and stop at about 30% power on the controller. The pair perform identically in this respect, and can be subsequently slowed down to about 25% or so before stalling.

 

While they're head and shoulders ahead of the old Lima/Hornby pancake efforts, I'm still a little disappointed at the starting speed - it's too high.

 

Has anyone successfully improved this aspect of performance, and if so - how?

 

 

 

As ever, thanks in advance,

Jamie.

 

 

PS. my pair aren't affected by the problems of the early wheelsets with their tendency to attract dirt.

[Flood]

Are you running DCC?

 

If so it might be the chips. We use Lenz standard chips (which have back EMF) priced at around £18.00 each and get very smooth slow speed running from our Heljan 26s and 47s.

[Jamie]

Sorry Flood, I should have said, plain vanilla DC with no feedback etc. It's very smooth, but only once it's overcome what I can only describe as a degree of internal friction.

 

Looks amply lubricated in there without being blocked solid with grease.

[Flood]

Got to admit I'm a bit lost then. They may need running in for a bit but none of ours have even needed that.

 

I'll leave this to the floor to see if there are any better solutions.

[Pixie]

Depending on what you're planning on hauling, one quite drastic measure is to make them drive to only one bogie by removing the gears, worm and drive shaft from one bogie tower. The reduction is resistance in the mechanism leads to a real improvement in the performance - my slow speed record with one of my Hymeks is a scale 0.5 mph! I'm not sure on maximum haulage capability, but my Hymeks can manage 30 wagons at 60g each without any hesitation.

 

HTH

 

Pix

[Andrew F]

Hello Jamie

 

I know exactly what you mean about the 26/27 and initially put it down to the gearing being too high as they do scale TGV speeds. I could not get them to crawl round my layout with a train and more worrying was their tendency to grind (and a squeak!) to a halt on an incline; hot to the touch! No amount of running in changed anything.

I was using DC H&M Clippers and once I changed to DCC and chipped the 26, these problems vanished.

These loco's are supposed to draw a lot of current aren't they? and if the problems cease with a strong continuous voltage on the tracks, then there may be an answer somewhere in Ohms law. Probaly not, knowing my advice

Someone must have a solution to this as there's plenty Helly bo-bo' runnin on DC.

 

Sorry

 

Andy

[Dagworth]

I was using DC H&M Clippers and once I changed to DCC and chipped the 26, these problems vanished.

High or low resistance and full or half wave?

I would be very surprised at a Heljan mech coming to a halt on pure 12v DC.

 

Andi

[davknigh]

You might want to have a look here; http://hackitup.railfan.net/athearn.html Most model diesel mechanisms are quite similar and will respond to the same techniques. OTOH I seem to recall unkind things being said about Heljan motors so there might also be a case for re-powering, but this is cheaper....

 

HTH

 

David

[Andrew F]

All switch combinations eventually produced the same result: hot and weary little loco that had been running the circuit for 10 minutes fine with 6 coaches now stood on the 1 in 50 incline. Cranking the controller up to full soon had it moving and after it had cooled off, the cycle could begin again with the same result after 10 minutes. The scale speed around the circuit would about 40mph.

The 1st gen Clayton didn't have these problems and crawled around un-flustered with longer loads which I thought was a great improvement, until I heard the horror stories.

 

I can't help thinking still that if the gearing was lower on the 26/27 then part of the problem wourld be solved.

 

Cheers

 

Andy

[Gwiwer]

I don't have any 27's but I do have a couple of Heljan 33's which I believe have the identical guts. I am also running plain old DC through a Morley Vortrak controller inputting a nominal 1.1 amps per circuit.

 

I don't find any problems with the performance of the locos under any conditions. But what I do find is that most of my Heljan locos are a little temperamental in terms of having their wheels and contact wipers kept spotlessly clean. Any amount of dirt will cause a significant drop-off in performance.

 

It might also pay to test each pair of wheels in turn to establish that the pick-ip is in fact working at all. Some locos have arrived with wipers not in contact with the wheels which is a quite simple thing to adjust. This also affects slow speed performance.

 

They also do seem to draw more current than Bachmann locos and take a full extra notch to get moving. Once moving they will slow to a realistic crawl very nicely.

 

Check your wipers and wheel rims as well as other things.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I too have noticed Jamie's observations regarding the high start/stall speed with these models. Although otherwise fine, they just don't have the bottom end speed range, which to me is the most important part of the whole range.

Any tweaks and observations will be appreciated here too. I wonder if there's a gearing upgrade that would suit.

 

Dave.

[Jamie]

I like the simplicity of Pixie's approach and I'll try that one first, as haulage won't be an issue. Swap out the wheelsets for a set with no drive gear, and disconnect the driveshaft should do it without major works.

 

 

I guess most folk won't find it a problem, it just doesn't look right to me for a loco to go from dead still to a brisk walking pace instantly with a train on the drawbar.

 

 

I can confirm there's no issue with electrical pickup, as I can hear the current flow (quietly) through the motor before the voltage increases sufficiently to turn it over. Wipers and wheels have all been addressed during the EM conversion, though these models did originally come with the later improved wheels.

 

David's link is also an interesting read.

 

 

Thanks all.

[sweeny todd]

Hi my Heljan 35,33,26 locos are all fine nice and slow but my 47 wont crawl and has a nasty squeak when moving i use dc gaugemaster controller Bachmann loco's seem to be spot on i suppose you could send Heljan an email quoteing the problem see what they say.

 

cheers

[tractor_37260]

I have this evening been testing various bits of stock which have been worked on away from the layout.

 

One thing is apparent, and that is the on-off nature of the Heljan mechanisms in my 27s. They are wonderfully smooth and powerful once on the go, but start and stop at about 30% power on the controller. The pair perform identically in this respect, and can be subsequently slowed down to about 25% or so before stalling.

 

While they're head and shoulders ahead of the old Lima/Hornby pancake efforts, I'm still a little disappointed at the starting speed - it's too high.

 

Has anyone successfully improved this aspect of performance, and if so - how?

 

 

 

As ever, thanks in advance,

Jamie.

 

Hi Jamie

From a previous post, it may prove of some help ?

Initially I had a running problem with my Heljan 26 028. It was not a happy runner right from the start even on DC. When fitted with a Lenz chip - (after removing the cap) slow speed running was still poor, at very slow speed it actually stopped at times, with the lights dimming/blinking on/off. There was what appeared to be a "strange rubbing" noise especially in one direction, suspected the pick-ups but these were discounted after placing a minute spot of electrolube on each rubbing pad. Then suspected perhaps a wire was rubbing on a driveshaft etc, so removed the body and prised the circuit board out of it's rubber grommets and found ?? one of the motor terminals with red wire attached was fouling/rubbing on the flywheel next to it ! Once it was gently prised/bent away, normal SILENT running resumed with no other problems.

Both motor terminals are at the same end off the motor, and VERY close to one of the flywheels, well worth checking when converting to DCC etc.

 

I normally use an old H&M Clipper connected to a shuttle track to run in new mechanisms prior to DCCing. Apart from the above "rogue" 26 - after running in my other HJ 26/27's run - in fact glide along sliently right down to a stop.

HTH

Ken

[Jamie]

I'll try that link again...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/south-by-souwest/4881461855/ illustrates the performance I'm getting.

 

Checked Ken's wire tip, and tried Pixie's mod - slight improvement. I'll continue to peel it apart and see what I can do.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

In my (limited) experience of this maker's product, Heljan models as supplied have had high internal friction compared to typical Bachmann centre motor design chassis. This is immediately noticeable on DC test ahead of decoder fitting: despite flywheels the model will not coast any distance when the power is turned off. Noticed this on 47s belonging to friends, and then on a couple of subsequent models, a 33 (property of a friend) and a 26. Take the worms off the bogie gear towers and assess where the friction is originating; both worm bearings and gear trains, ease as required, and reassemble. That one 26 chassis I own, had one gear train which was very tight: having had it apart and eased it, it now starts immediately on DC from my old Clipper on the low resistance setting; and with the high resistance switch in, starts very smoothly and will sustain a scale 2.5mph crawl (twenty seconds for a foot). The motor no longer gets hot when running, just slightly warm. (With a Lenz decoder it will move almost imperceptibly.) I had a version of the 'hackitup' advice in hardcopy years ago (cannot remember the source) and am pretty sure the online article is from the same author, it is exactly the same writing style. It's good information.

 

Worth mentioning that the class 15 was very different from all my previous Heljan experience, free running straight from the box, no adjustments required. Lovely mech.

[Captain Kernow]

34C's approach seems to be similar to Pixie's - namely reduce friction.

 

I've got the same problem with Hymeks and Class 33s (all operating on DC), and I was planning on a trial change of motor to a Mashima to see if that made any difference, but I think I will try the 'reduce friction' approach first....

 

A most useful thread, this, including the link to the USA advice.

[johnb]

Can't really add much to this discussion, but I have a Class 15, all variants of 33s and a Hymek and all run beautifully slowly and always have done on DC from Gaugemaster hand helds. The only point that I have to watch is that as mentioned above the need to keep the wheels and pickup contacts clean.

 

If anyone wants to pop along to the Reading Society of Model Engineers Show on 11/12 Sept then I will have them running on West London Parcels. The layout is OO despite the listing on the their webpage!!!

 

RSME show

[craigwelsh]

Strip the motor and bogies out.

Test the motor separately to check its running ok without any load.

Test the bogie towers turn freely under finger power without tight spots otherwise take them apart and check for burrs etc.

If those bits are fine then run it off fly leads to rule out pickups.

 

 

I've got a Western and a Hymek with P4 wheels in that run beautifully and coast quite a distance. I have had the Hymek running for an evening on Slattocks at slow spead before we took the old track up.

 

These locos are essentially assembled from plastic kits so its inevitable that some will have slight issues though the class 17 issues were obviously a design flaw.

 

I Mashima motor replacement will allow you to run more locos if DCC as it'll vastly decrease the amps drawn but it shouldn't be needed to get them running properly.

 

Bachmann bogies are a bit better especially with the A-1-A mod Richard at Bachmann pointed out at the Bluebell on Friday. I'll try to stick pictures of that up sometime.

[Jamie]

OK, a full rebuild of the drivetrain, cleaning (more) excess grease from the depths of the gear towers and careful reassembly to avoid any tight spots as per 34C's post above has resulted in the starting voltage dropping to 20% on the controller, which results in equal starting speed with the better of my Hornby Black Fives. Which is good enough for me I think.

 

There's a string of gears which transfer drive between axles, and while nominally identical, there are good and bad combinations in which to order them, presumably due to manufacturing tolerances.

 

In refitting the bogies, I've developed a better appreciation of the dexterity of the Danes or Chinese individuals that assemble these things...

[liathach]

Just been reading this article.  Years ago when the Heljan type 2s came out, I bought one.  It displayed the same poor slow speed running hauling a load.  I changed to a feedback controller and subsequently bought a few other Heljan 26s.  They were much better than the first one.  Recently I have bought a new one and this again has been sketchy compared to the others.  After stripping the chassis on the new one and checking all the drive train, I have decided that the issue lies in the motor itself.  I an tempted to to try and source an alternative motor and flywheel assembly that I can drop in to the 26 chassis.  Has anybody been successful with this?

[Tim V]

Covered this subject on my workbench thread on the Scalefour site. My Hymek had two speeds. Stop and fast.

https://www.scalefour.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=105&t=913&p=10054&hilit=hymek#p10054

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I feel your simplest option - if you feel that return to retailer as unsatisfactory is now not possible - would be to see if Howes have the Heljan motor available as a spare. My own experience with Heljan is limited, I have seen a total of about a dozen fitted with the 1830 dimension can motor used in the larger models, and to date I have not encountered a poor specimen.

 

Presumably the Mashima 1830 would be an alternative, if you can find one in 'new old stock'.

[mossdp]

I found similar performance problems with some Heljan models - starting speed would be high and quite slow speed running sometimes not possible. There were variations between individual models. Found that the one cause was the motors. When disconnected from everything else, would not turn slowly - had to increase the power and they would suddenly start to rotate at quite a speed. Slow speed performance was often no better than some Lima and Hornby ringfield models. Like with these models though, there were better and not so good examples.

[liathach]

I run old plain DC.  I have a couple of Bachmann 20s and 25s to compare against Heljan Class 26s and a Hymek.  All the locos are fine without a load.  With a load Bachmann locos are more more smooth and easier to control at starting smoothly than the Heljans.  My newest Heljan 26 being the worst (it has had plenty of running in time).  When comparing locos, I noticed that the Bachmann 20 motor will fit in to the Heljan 26 body cradle.  Got it in fine.  To my surprise, the 26 then ran worse than with the Heljan motor.  As per other people's advise, I therefore suspect there is more friction in the Heljan gearing which, although overcome smoothly when running light, with a moderate load in tow leads to that awful looking jump in starting.  I shall probably try and take apart the bogie towers to see if any improvements can be made.