Why are preserved railways so unpopular as layout subjects

[The Stationmaster]

Absolutely. But as I understand it, no new Light Railway Orders have been granted since 1993, and there are several preserved railways now running on a TWO rather than an LRO.

 

There is a lot of work involved, and the use of a "competent person" at many of the stages means it will be an expensive procedure. Most preserved railways would never recoup the cost.

 

 

A TWO is still an 'Order' within the meaning of ROGS so it would make no real difference to any mechanism of trying to make a change in speeds. And indeed if you were to open a new railway, or part of a railway, now under ROGS you would still have to do an awful lot of extra work to try to achieve a speed higher than 25mph and you can rest assured that the Railway Inspectorate would be going through it with a very fine tooth comb - you should see what they did with a risk assessment for a new type of point machine .

 

The 'competent person' thing need not always be expensive as there is nothing to stop a Railway using a volunteer from another Railway (in some respects this has long been the practice with independent locking tests on signalling installations) but there is then a question of insurance and, in some respects, 'proof' of a person's competence in any particular field. But for anyone going to one of the longer established large companies in the ISA area they are likely to be paying at least £600/700 per day per competent person although one more recent entrant to the field charges much less (and pays much less ).

[Andy Kirkham]

I can think of two reasons why I personally don't favour models of preserved railways:

 

1. Preserved railways and model railway are each in their own way an imitation of a real railway and I don't see the point of creating an imitation of an imitation.

 

2. The model railways I most enjoy are those that most strongly convey the atmosphere of a specific region in a particular era. Preserved railways provide a licence to run all manner of stock in any livery you fancy. For some, that might be a selling point but for me it completely negates the thing that provides the most pleasure.

 

Andy

[Caledonian]

I'm in agreement with Andy - and with Bloodnok's original post on this. I get my pleasure out of this business in researching a real bit of railway and trying however imperfectly to turn it into model form. Thus to convincingly* recreate my bit of 1950s Scotland (Dinnaken) I need to have a solid core of multiple Black Fives, because without them it would just be a random collection of stock. Similarly, if I wanted to convincingly* replicate a preserved railway I would want to do just as much research on my chosen subject, get Ruston's collection of figures and add heads and shoulders poking out of every conceivable orifice on the coaches and build the whole thing around an Austerity 0-6-0 hauling a couple of Mk1s.

 

That being said I don't see what the problem is. I may spend most of my modelling time building and operating a Scottish layout, but that doesn't prevent me occasionally leaving the Scottish steam in the boxes while I run my North American diesels. Thus far I've neither been fried by lightning nor denounced to the Holy Inquisition... B)

 

* one of my favourite terms and far more important than accurately/authentically

[James]

1. Preserved railways and model railway are each in their own way an imitation of a real railway and I don't see the point of creating an imitation of an imitation.

 

I think that's a good point and I suspect rather valid too.

 

Interesting one layout not mentioned is Colin Peake's Shifting Sands - not strictly 'preserved' but certainly in what we'd now call 'heritage railway' area.

 

http://shiftingsands.fotopic.net

 

It's very convicing and does highlight the simple operation of such railways.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

From my perspective, there simply isn't a preserved railway that is 'main line' enough: four tracks, with an intensive and very varied service. When the principal interest is operation, one or two locos in steam running a passenger shuttle is somewhat less exciting than the potential for running several hundred different trains every day. Also rather more of a challenge to model convincingly, without going bankrupt in the process...

 

 

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Beening someone who has an exhibition layout based on a preserved railway, this topic has been quite an interesting read and it's nice to hear some peoples thoughts on the subject and I fully understand every ones points of view.

 

One of the biggest points raised is that preserved railways aren't 'real railways', but I believe they are, like 'real' railways, preserved railways have to come up with there own working practices, produce their own timetables, maintain infurstructure stock and locos, finance themselves and market themselves, these are all things that the 'real' railway had to do back in steam days and still has to do today. So personally I think we should stop think about them as imitations, but railway companies.

 

From my perspective, there simply isn't a preserved railway that is 'main line' enough: four tracks, with an intensive and very varied service. When the principal interest is operation, one or two locos in steam running a passenger shuttle is somewhat less exciting than the potential for running several hundred different trains every day. Also rather more of a challenge to model convincingly, without going bankrupt in the process...

 

This is true, but there are ways of getting around this, make up a preserved line, this allows you to use locos you like, how many tracks you like etc.

 

Unfortunately, the words "fictional preserved line" have a rather different image associated with them. The image that appears in my head when I hear "fictional preserved line" is that of: Pick from whatever you like off the shelf RTR, don't weather it ("Because the society keeps it clean"), and match it with a short train of any coaching stock you want, also unweathered. Operate said line in an unprototypical way, on an unprototypical track layout. In other words, it's a train set. It gets better though - the people I've encountered who claim to have a "fictional model of a preserved railway" are using "It's a preserved line" to try to explain away faux-pas that real preserved lines couldn't even dream of getting away with. One example I've seen had several 66s running "in" and "out" of the preserved line on freight (and without stopping), and a variety of DMUs operated by several different TOCs, up to and including long distance types, running right into the societies main platform - including operating through services, apparently, as they'd come and go from both sides. That isn't a model of a fictional preserved railway, it's a train set, with all the trains the owner likes on it. (And described as a train set, it really is a great one. But a model of a fictional preserved line it isn't.)

 

 

I understand where your coming from, ok, it is true that I do use off the shelf RTR that I don't weather (but that is because I'm not confindent with weathering a £70 + engine), but with my 'fictional preserved line', I don't shove an old engine on to any old stock, I try to match stock with locos (e.g, a T9 on Bullied Coaches or an V1 on Gresley coahes) and I try to operate both my preserved layouts with as much realism as I can (signals in right place etc). The example you have given there is a bit like my Exhibtion Layout Hythe Parkway, but I use a modern image terminus in which the preserved railway runs services from a station up the line (Bigporth) and runs into the terminus (unfortunatly the length of my platform has made the trains short) and then go off to be serviced in the Heritage railways shed, which is completely seperate from the main network.

 

Layouts like the one your describing, aren't train sets though, I imagine a train set as being thomas the tank engine running around a circle on the carpet in the living room, but if a fictious preserved railway is classed as a trainset, then so be it, but it's my trainset and thats how I like it.

 

Now, back to the sbuject of why are they so unpopular. Well I don't think they are, on here, I've seen Serveral preserved layouts (my own Hythe and Southeast Steam Railway, Matt Wickes superb Bluebell Model Railway, Dan Hulls brillant Wenchford, Preservation Modellers Stepney Down and 34008padstows Hogsmead Steam Railway). From Experience they are popular at Exhibitions, at all the exhibitions I have been to with Hythe Parkway, I have had times when there where 2 or 3 deep looking at the layout, but I always had people looking as well as people coming back at looking again! One thing that surprised both my dad and myself was how many children came up to the layout and asked to see things run and beening entertained.

 

Surely that's what an Layout is all about, entertainment? Entertainment for both viewer and owner, and that's what my preserved railway brings, so I don't care weather it's a trainset or 'not real' because it gives entertainment for me and anyone who sees it an exhibition.

 

Simon

[James]

One of the biggest points raised is that preserved railways aren't 'real railways', but I believe they are, like 'real' railways, preserved railways have to come up with there own working practices, produce their own timetables, maintain infurstructure stock and locos, finance themselves and market themselves, these are all things that the 'real' railway had to do back in steam days and still has to do today. So personally I think we should stop think about them as imitations, but railway companies.

 

I think I was one who said they weren't 'real' railways. Those who have been on the railway may also feel that they don't have the feeling of the railway - I actually think this is, for me, is often down to the attitude of the staff/volunteers which makes them feel very unprofessional places. Some staff I've had dealings with make you feel you're spoling their day out on the railway! We had a wonderful example on Saturday last week - on a station with my wife, little boy and my parents. We thoguht about sitting outside ont the platform and having a drink. We couldn't because the two tables outside the buffet were full of the railway's staff - none of whom seemed to actually be actively drinking or eating. We went elsewhere - other side of the road where we could still see what was happening but served by staff who actualy seemed bothered.

 

Not all are like this of course, but it can affect how one views such places.

[PhilH]

We thoguht about sitting outside ont the platform and having a drink. We couldn't because the two tables outside the buffet were full of the railway's staff - none of whom seemed to actually be actively drinking or eating.

 

That sounds like the real railway from time immemorial. Are you trying to say that staff attitudes are always spot on the real railway - if so I beg to differ

[James]

That sounds like the real railway from time immemorial.

I wouldn't say so - real railwaymen like to be well aware from the paying public!

 

Are you trying to say that staff attitudes are always spot on the real railway - if so I beg to differ

Not always but there are some excellent people on the railway, but the thing to remember here is that the markets are totally different markets.

 

What I never understand is why people volunteer and appear to spend so much of their shift sitting chatting?!

[peterl]

I wouldn't say so - real railwaymen like to be well aware from the paying public!

 

 

Not always but there are some excellent people on the railway, but the thing to remember here is that the markets are totally different markets.

 

What I never understand is why people volunteer and appear to spend so much of their shift sitting chatting?!

 

 

 

 

The same reason that railway modellers go to shows with their layouts and spend much of their time chatting!  Don't we James???

 

 

Peter

 

 

 

 

 

[James]

The same reason that railway modellers go to shows with their layouts and spend much of their time chatting!  Don't we James???

Not quite the same though!

 

I play cricket to go and play, not to sit around - that happens in the pub afterwards!

[PhilH]

What I never understand is why people volunteer and appear to spend so much of their shift sitting chatting?!

 

Don't you talk to your friends then?

[James]

Don't you talk to your friends then?

 

 

The public see those 'working' there as being staff so it may not go down very well - I know one of the board of trustee members of the railway to which I was referring and he finds it frustrating to see the scenes I've mentioned. It just looks unprofessional - it doesn't matter if the staff in question are paid or voluntary in my opinion.

[gc4946]

I think you can have just a challenging layout based on the preservation scene.

Today I was on the Embsay and Bolton Abbey Steam Railway on their Thomas the Tank Engine weekend. There were three trains running, two provided a half hourly service between Embsay and Bolton Abbey leaving from platform 1 hauled by Austerity (J94) tanks and their green 31, D5600 with maroon Mk1s, and the Embsay shuttle train running to its former junction with the Grassington branch, going through non-stop through Embsay as far as the workshops and then reversing back into platform 2, hauled by their green 04 D2203, aka Mavis, on a three coach Victorian era set.

As platform 2 at Embsay was occupied by the 04 plus Victorian carriages shuttle service, the locos on the Bolton Abbey trains couldn't run round at Embsay so one of the three locos had to stay in a siding to couple onto the other end of the train and once that left Embsay it could then lay over.

It you really wanted to go to town on that you would need to model some of the Thomas displays, the snack bars, the Fat Controller walking around, and loads of families and eager children standing around and waving and queuing to see Thomas himself which was parked on a siding at Embsay.

[hughconway]

Hi all,

 

As a long term reader but infrequent poster I have stumbled upon this thread and feel compelled to resurrect it as I am considering modelling a fictional preserved-line/Network Rail junction based on Dunmow station in Essex. It is fictional because Dunmow has long gone and was never preserved however Colne Valley Railway and Wakes Colne station (just a few miles on down the same mainline (GEML) if you came from the Braintree direction!) do follow this prototype.

 

Having read the many and varied points of view so far expressed I am now feeling disheartened as it seems that if I choose to use only the best RTR stock available with the rationale that these are preserved items then my layout will have less worth than if I had modelled Dunmow as per the 1950s prototype which would mean kitbuilding all locos and stock as none is available in RTR form. The research into the location is the same, the attempt to accurately and realistically model the infrastructure (albeit with some changes to reflect the split into a Preserved line next to a Network Rail line) etc. are the same as if I was modelling the 1950s prototype but the stock running on it will not. For the Network Rail line I plan to run a Class 156 which is the same as is currently used prototypically on the Wakes Colne line.

 

Whilst I am inspired by layouts such as Jim's P4 New Street, is it really the case that all layouts should attempt to 100% accurately and authentically model a prototype location and any that do not are less worthy than those that do? What I think is more likely but which has not come over completely in the posts above is that making a trainset is fine and great fun but trying to justify it as somehow 'real' is not. Ultimately, everyone will have their own view on what is real and/or realistic (much based on expert experience of the 12":1ft railways) but surely tarnishing all preserved-line models with the trainset/unrealistic brush is unfair and risks becoming unnessarily elitist (something which this forum by and large is not!)?

 

What are others' views?

 

Thanks,

 

Hugh

[coachmann]

What are others' views?

 

You have answered your own post Hugh and not left much for others to add. I don't understand what you mean about your layout having less worth if you modelled this instead of that. What has 'worth' got to do with it?

 

I think where people fall down is when they get defensive even before they have even started building and show they have even less of an open mind than the people they are accusing. Personally I would prefer to see pictures of a model preserved line rather than words, as there is no earthly reason why it cannot be done if one is based on a preserved line. It goes without saying you can do whatever you wish but if people do not take it seriously, that is their choice. Why should you worry?

[bike2steam]

The old Dunmow station is a location crying out to be modelled. A compact 'passing place' with a fair amount of freight for a branch line right up to the late '50's, and a chance to stretch credibility a bit, and put the 'Kicking Dickey' next door .

As a former volunteer at Swanage, that was a railway that was/is definitely not unrealistic. As most average preserved lines are limited because of man-power, and money, it is rare to see more than 3 locos in steam at any one time unless it's a gala. How monotonous to see a good model railway running with just 2 or 3 locos running a regular service, doesn't do well for a long attention spell.

[definate maybe]

The main problem with the 'make believe' preserved lines I have seen is they all appear to be set in the middle of a steam gala with all available space taken up by Fairs, traction engines, buses and enough people to make Oxford Street on a saturday afternoon look empty.

I wouldnt model one as its very hard to make it plausible but exciting. If your modelling the revenue earning railways then you can add a small piece of fiction and it doesnt look out of place. A L/L 50 on the Highland main line in 2010 with a mix of MK1's & MK2 in colours ranging from Choc & Cream to Virgin can easily pass for the state of todays charter services. By adding this kind of sight to a preserved line would just be seen as 'run what you like when you like' which isnt bad (its your model and you do what you want) but if your striving for realism it would be a very hard job to get the balance right

[hughconway]

By adding this kind of sight to a preserved line would just be seen as 'run what you like when you like' which isnt bad (its your model and you do what you want) but if your striving for realism it would be a very hard job to get the balance right

 

This is a very good point, and one which I think applies equally to some depot type layouts - far too many "special visitors" compared with the prototype. However, as you say: it's their model and so they can run what they like. I guess though that we all have to strike a balance between reality in its purest sense and entertainment as reality for many areas of the real railways (just as in the rest of life) can be extremely dull for most, if not all, of the time.

[dcroz]

One of the "busiest" preserved layouts I have seen is the "Museum of Transport" which I saw at the Bakewell Exhibition in June (and made a special trip there to see) -

 

http://museumoftransport.webs.com/

 

This certainly goes down the pack in as much as possible route and does! - but it was very popular at the exhibition as there was so much happening, indeed was always something moving.

 

It's appearing at the Leeds show at the end of October, do keep an eye out for it if you are going and see what you think! It certainly is the ultimate answer to running what you want, including a railplane, monorail and a hot air balloon.

 

Great fun! - I think it's been on the exhibition circuit for many, many years - and it really does show what you can fit into 18 feet by 3 and a half feet if you try hard enough!

 

David

[James]

it really does show what you can fit into 18 feet by 3 and a half feet if you try hard enough!

 

It only look about three foot square when I first saw it!

[Guest jim s-w]

 

is it really the case that all layouts should attempt to 100% accurately and authentically model a prototype location and any that do not are less worthy than those that do?

 

What are others' views?

 

Thanks,

 

Hugh

 

Hi Hugh

 

If everyone did that it would be just as dull! perhaps as it currently stands layouts of real places are a rarity and as such stand out. The other factor is people that know the place will identify with it and have their own emotional response. No matter how well a fictional place is modelled it will never get that and as such will always have just that little thing missing.

 

But as the saying goes, no one can please all of the people all of the time, people will like many different styles of layout for any reason you care to dream up

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[The Black Hat]

Im trying very hard to get the balance right on my model of a station which has a preserved line. On the preserved side of things Ive figured out what the timetable could be on any given day - a little extreme I know, but for those interested check out the thread im about to do on modelling it like a real railway - Im writing it after this post here.

 

Then all the engines can be figured out - how many needed, which ones come back and when, or if theres a bigger event, shuttles to run when, or which locomotives would be swapped. How many moves there are for empty stock and the path the dining train would take. Yeah the stock is a bit of a mix, with some mk 1s and gresley coaches, with a pullman set of both mk1s and traditional coaches, but its what the 'preserved railway' looks like. I cant model just Eastern region even if I wanted to, so the Black 5 thats a staple engine for most railways has been bought and purchased. Ive said it before here, modelling a preserved line can be done as its just modelling the railway with an opperation that is a new form of running for a line. It has become a frequent service designed for taking people for a ride and as such offers an addition to the operations of railways that were there to form a service.

 

Yes a lot of model preserved railway layouts are a combination of everything chucked in that you could want to run.... but some of us that model the scene accurately might surprise you with our results and whats more, equal attention to detail.

[grahame]

I'm a bit late to this tread but...................my tuppence worth;

 

Yep, as already alluded to; a preserved railway is basically a 1:1 scale train set so effectively it's already modelled and been done by itself. It therefore becomes pretty unfulfiling and pointless to make a pastiche of it.

 

G.

[JimC]

Ye gods, some of this stuff is a bit condescending isn't it? I'm sure it will come as a big suprise to the accountants of the preserved lines that they don't run revenue earning trains: to my uneducated eyes it appears to me that they do a damn sight better job of earning revenue than their predecessors did with those facilities. And its interesting to hear that all the advertising and other hard work that the Big 4 (especially the GW) put in on building tourist traffic wasn't running a proper railway either: one suspects there are a few past managers sniggering in their graves at that... I used to live close to Tattenham corner station where the SECR and Southern put an awful lot of investment into Leisure traffic: was that not running a "proper" railway either?

 

Its something I've observed in sports where I've had a far more active role than I have with railways, 4mm or 305mm to the foot: scorn and vitriol is most common between people who are involved in related but not identical activiies. Its rarely productive or useful and neither branch seems to gain from it... The preserved lines are often economically important in their local areas, and even when they are primarily volunteer run still make a significant contribution to the economy and to employment at service companies. Sneering at them seems counter productive for all of us.