RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 5, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2011 If it's going to be black Steve it needs a nice little cycling lion on it 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBedding Posted February 5, 2011 Author Share Posted February 5, 2011 If it's going to be black Steve it needs a nice little cycling lion on it Oh you heathen!!!! Wash your mouth out......... ( ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted February 5, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2011 ...and they all made a similar noise. when I first watched the movie on the iPhone, I thought it was someone clearing their throat in the background... Hat, coat, tortoise... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium romley midland Posted February 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 7, 2011 Hi Steve, The layout looks to be coming on really well and it's all being done to a very high standard! Can I ask you about the copper track (self adhesive?) that you are using under the boards, I am using the same but after I apply it the ends start to lift pretty quickly and I don't think any of it will stay on for very long! I am using some I brought from all components and sticking it to a full gloss surface. What are you using and can you give any tips for keeping it stuck to the board?! Best regards, Richard 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBedding Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 ...Can I ask you about the copper track (self adhesive?) that you are using under the boards, I am using the same but after I apply it the ends start to lift pretty quickly and I don't think any of it will stay on for very long! I am using some I brought from all components and sticking it to a full gloss surface. What are you using and can you give any tips for keeping it stuck to the board?! Hi Richard, Glad you're enjoying the thread - I find that it is almost as much fun as actually building the layout, and certainly keeps the enjoyment levels up. As to the copper tape, I didn't think I was doing anything special with it, and it certainly should stick OK to a gloss surface? I'm using ordinary (cheap ) copper tape (marketed for dolls house wiring or slug repelling...) from that well known auction site, rather than anything expensive that is sold as fit for dcc. The underside of the trackbed were painted in water based satin varnish (again cheap & quick) before I applied the tape; this was also done before I fixed the trackbed to the main frame - thus the ends of the tape were trapped between the trackbed and frame. This was done more to get a continuous end-to-end run rather than any 'clever' fixing of the tape. One thing I did do, was to ensure that as I was laying the tape, I rubbed it down with a soft cloth to ensure that it was a well stuck down. On a previous 'test' board, I had found that the ends of the copper tape had started to peel up within a few weeks and on this one I simply applied some super glue to the ends. Also, as I'm doing the electrics on the underside, I'm securing the wiring with 'blobs' of hot-melt glue, (and again not a planned benefit...) this has usually required a glue blob at the ends of each run of tape.... So I'm afraid there's no magic trick here, like everything else this has been another learning curve for me, and whatever seems to have worked has been more by luck than any reflection of of my knowledge and skills. That said, it may be an idea to varnish over an inch or so (if you have the free length) at the ends to seal the tape down? Hope this is of some help, and good luck with your layout, 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBedding Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 Thanks to everyone for chipping in with your comments and observations; the banter always makes me smile ( ) and the practical nuggets are most definitely gratefully received. Having got the basic track working on board 3, the rush of enthusiasm started pushing me to make a start on board 2. However, I've not been 100% happy with a couple of aspects of the work so far; namely 1) the fragility of parts of the points, and 2), the moving sleeper tie-bar. Even though I was convinced about using Easitrac, I always knew that I would use some PCB sleepers in order to provide simple electrical connectivity to the points; especially to the common crossing and and the blades. The plan was to use thin wire droppers that could be tucked against the rail at the PCB sleeper and when painted/ballasted these would blend in with the other chairs. Actually, when looked at from a distance, this concept does seem to work, but I know its there so I does still stand-out somewhat! Anyway, this gave the planned use of these copper-clad sleepers... Also, I went for the simplest method of making the tie-bar that I'd seen used, ie a thinned PCB sleeper between two normally positioned ones - but more on this later. Construction and operation was simple enough and as seen it worked, however, there were a number of weak points and small failures which although easily repaired, raised a few alarm bells! Overall these weak points could be summed up as locations where there was a 'break' in the track work around the common crossing (the stock rails have remained secure throughout). Whilst this fragility may be acceptable for a static layout, one day I'd like to exhibit Smokey Bacon and thus it must be made more robust. The drawing below shows the 're-think' of the positioning of the PCB sleeper (and the addition of a couple more) that will give a more solid fixing for the common crossing and yet retain benefit of the majority of the sleepers having the proper chairs. I've only shown the positioning for the two points of the crossing, but since all the points on board 2 are the same (B6), the logical sleeper positioning will be repeated for all. I also noticed at this point (no pun intended) that I'm going to have to be 'creative' with the point leading to the second milk bay and goods shed (3rd and 4th track down) as the spacing is a little tight ! I have checked underneath and if used in the off-set configuration, there is (only) just space for the two Tortoise motors - I may try using Cobalt motors here as they are slightly narrower and may fit more easily... I've also had a re-think on the tie-bar solution - too much time studying other layouts over the past week or so leads to indecision! Hindsight says that the original solution looks a little too much like Peco/Hornby points and there should be something better and whilst I want to retain the principle of moving sleeper (simplicity), I'd like to 'hide' it. Well, that's my train (ouch - I'm on a roll with the puns!) of thought, and I now throw it open to the floor for discussion... EDIT: Oh bugrit! I should have realised that as soon as I pressed "Add Reply" I'd notice that I'd miss something! The drawing below shows the additional PCB sleepers to finish off supporting the common crossing AND the check rails. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Endacott Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 ...one day I'd like to exhibit Smokey Bacon... Which year would you like to bring it to the Calne Show? Geoff Endacott 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scanman Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Steve - You are not alone in the 'plastic v pcb' debate. Even modelling in 'EM' I used PCB in very similar positions on the 'Ambridge Dairy' section for exactly the same reason. (If interested you can see the thread in the 2010 challenge). When I take it 'round the corner' into Ambridge itself I'm going to modify it again, using EMGS wooden strip & copper rivets. In one regard it will even add to authenticity - in the era I'm modelling (pre-1925 in the main) GW switches were straight - using rivets at the heel will enable the blade to pivot... With regard to tie-bars, consider using PCB but turned on edge. The droppers from the blade can be soldered to the copper - likewise the rser from the PM. I'll admit that on 'Ambridge' all the metalwork runs into brass tube - but workign in the larger scale it's not so visible. I will admit I'm going to 'Blag' your idea about using dolls house copper strip for the baseboard runs. A very neat idea! As for the 'diseisel'.......Nuff sed! Regs Ian PS did I see a comment that you might be going to the Newbury show this w/e?? 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
artizen Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Have you looked at this site for N scale components that are made in stainless steel? The throw bar sits on edge between the blades and is buried in the ballast. http://www.proto87.com/n-scale-track.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2011 Steve, Very interesting to read of your experiences and the diagrams are excellent in describing that too. Whilst I am a big fan of easitrac, I just couldn't get on with the turnouts. Most people have though successfully, so I put that down to my skill set in trackmaking...which is pretty limited. I tried various hybrids of plastic and pcb and in the end had interwoven so much pcb in the mix, I thought I might as well stick with all pcb - I think it does allow an element of fine tuning with a soldering iron which all plastic may not, however I guess other larger scales have managed this ok. That said, I will probably try again sometime to build one so I am watching how you tackle it with great interest. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBedding Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 Which year would you like to bring it to the Calne Show? Geoff Endacott Don't ask silly questions My time scale was (and still is for SWMBO's awareness...) to be ready by 2020, ie 10 years late for the 2mm Association's Golden Jubilee - well this is a railway, and a British construction project after all! To be more realistic, I can't see it be anyway near ready to show until 2012/13 (house move and job change at the end of this year ) and that's assuming that the Mayans were wrong... Steve - You are not alone in the 'plastic v pcb' debate. Even modelling in 'EM' I used PCB in very similar positions on the 'Ambridge Dairy' section for exactly the same reason. (If interested you can see the thread in the 2010 challenge). When I take it 'round the corner' into Ambridge itself I'm going to modify it again, using EMGS wooden strip & copper rivets. In one regard it will even add to authenticity - in the era I'm modelling (pre-1925 in the main) GW switches were straight - using rivets at the heel will enable the blade to pivot... With regard to tie-bars, consider using PCB but turned on edge. The droppers from the blade can be soldered to the copper - likewise the rser from the PM. I'll admit that on 'Ambridge' all the metalwork runs into brass tube - but workign in the larger scale it's not so visible. I will admit I'm going to 'Blag' your idea about using dolls house copper strip for the baseboard runs. A very neat idea! As for the 'diseisel'.......Nuff sed! Regs Ian PS did I see a comment that you might be going to the Newbury show this w/e?? Thanks for this Ian (scanman), in a way it's reassuring that I'm not discovering new 'problems' - it sort of means that my approach/thought process is not too divergent from others I'd looked at the possibility of the PCB sleeper on its side but had discarded it for simplicity (and knowing the limitations of my soldering skills and Playmobil scale fingers!). I'm glad you like the dolls house tape, but I'm afraid I can't take any credit for the originality of the idea - I think i copied it from Missy's Highclere (I don't do original thought...). Yes I'll be at Newbury on Saturday, I'm assisting Mitziblue with Witney Euston and perhaps this time we may start to take things almost seriously and eat the jelly babies not shunt them Have you looked at this site for N scale components that are made in stainless steel? The throw bar sits on edge between the blades and is buried in the ballast. http://www.proto87.c...cale-track.html Ian (artizen), I had seen this site before and was very interested when I first started thinking about a layout (N gauge) several years ago - before SWMBO persuaded me to go GWR and I drifted into 2mm. It is something that I will put away in the 'possibilities' store as whilst it's not for now, I may have a future use for the techniques.... Steve, Very interesting to read of your experiences and the diagrams are excellent in describing that too. Whilst I am a big fan of easitrac, I just couldn't get on with the turnouts. Most people have though successfully, so I put that down to my skill set in trackmaking...which is pretty limited. I tried various hybrids of plastic and pcb and in the end had interwoven so much pcb in the mix, I thought I might as well stick with all pcb - I think it does allow an element of fine tuning with a soldering iron which all plastic may not, however I guess other larger scales have managed this ok. That said, I will probably try again sometime to build one so I am watching how you tackle it with great interest. Keep up the comments Pete, and the sterling work on Combe/Moorswater; I've seen several nice ideas there that I'll want to plagiarise at a later date. I'll even run the occasional blue diesel for you... That reminds me, I need to look back at how you lowered your Class 37... Thanks all, more to follow, but in the mean time I've been side-tracked by a little project which may or may not be railway related... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold bcnPete Posted February 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 8, 2011 Thanks all, more to follow, but in the mean time I've been side-tracked by a little project which may or may not be railway related... Do tell That reminds me, I need to look back at how you lowered your Class 37... Stay tuned...I am about to do 4 class 37's in one go...the lengths I will go to, to avoid making trees See you at Expo 2020 then...build your layout at 1200mm above FFL and the jelly baby freights could see a bit of through running...Calne to Coombe 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium romley midland Posted February 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2011 Thanks for the tips on the copper tape Steve, I shall try some of those pointers out, Many thanks and keep up the good work, Richard 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBedding Posted February 9, 2011 Author Share Posted February 9, 2011 Stay tuned...I am about to do 4 class 37's in one go...the lengths I will go to, to avoid making trees See you at Expo 2020 then...build your layout at 1200mm above FFL and the jelly baby freights could see a bit of through running...Calne to Coombe Pete Looking forward to the work on the 4 class 37's! It would be very useful to see every detail (warts 'n all...) of each step - with lots of pictures please... It just so happens that SWMBO has a cousin about 10 miles from Keighley, so I might even get to the Expo this year - if I can persuade her that she needs to do the family visit I'll have to sweeten the deal with a trip to the The Keighley & Worth Valley Railway on the Sunday, but that's no hardship as I always did enjoy the (original) Railway Children (oooooooohh Jenny Agutter - must go and lie down ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted February 9, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 9, 2011 Your experiences with the easitrac points make me wonder whether some form of soldered construction with chairplates and cosmetic chairs might be the answer. I must have a go myself. Perhaps do a test piece rather than wait until I start on the layout. Regarding the tiebar issue. This was always controversial issue and not just for 2mm. I think it was Brian Tilbury came up with using 35mm type film on edge back in the 80's article in 2mm mag. Some people find that fibreglass base pcb is better than the resin/tufnol type as the base is stronger. You would probably need to cut your own in 2mm. Double sided PCB can be stronger as it has a extra copper layer. I have also somewhere some mylar based pcb which is flexible, it came with some very natty etching for 0 gauge from Ambis. Otherwise you have to go for a more robust tiebar underneath with some form of link and perhaps a decorative one between the rails. There are two other alternatives which are probably unsuitable for 2mm. Someone used two pieces of brass tube araldited onto a cocktail stick and I can use a nice strong metal one for the 16mm live steam in the garden. One advantage of the pcb type is that it's replaceable at an exhibition. On an 0 gague exhibition layout I used a wooden sleeper with inverted rivets though soldered to the blades. One of these fractured at the rivet hole during an exhibition. I used a piece of cotton tied round the tiebar to hold it together. We managed to complete the show. Of course I then promptly forgot it. On the next outing my co-operator said of look theres a peice of cotton caught round the tie-bar and I had to confess my laxity. Still it worked another two day show! Regards Don 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2011 Your experiences with the easitrac points make me wonder whether some form of soldered construction with chairplates and cosmetic chairs might be the answer. I must have a go myself. Perhaps do a test piece rather The soldered Bill Blackburn system produced some very nice pointwork that was strong. Unfortunately this has been discontinued. The problem with this type of pointwork was that it was exceptionally time consuming to make. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2011 Your experiences with the easitrac points make me wonder whether some form of soldered construction with chairplates and cosmetic chairs might be the answer. I must have a go myself. Perhaps do a test piece rather than wait until I start on the layout. I'm sticking with soldered point work for the Bath project with Easitrac for the plain track. PCB with chairplates, not bothering with any sort of cosmetic chairs as I don't think they are at all neccessary. When painted they blend in with the plastic based track fine. The bit that realy notices is the small gap under the rail where the chair lifts it just off the sleeper. As others have said soldered track has the great advantage of being easily adjusted and very strong. Regarding the tiebar issue. This was always controversial issue and not just for 2mm. I think people get far too hung up about tie/stretcher bars. I have seen some fiendishly complex solutions put forward. On Highbury I have used moving PCB sleepers which I am told are visualy obtrusive (nobody has ever commented and indeed generally have to ask what system I use) not very strong (one joint has broken in the last twelve years of home use and fifty odd shows, no sleepers have broken). The tie bar is a normal PCB sleeper with a hole in the middle for the wire from the below baseboard TOU. I used little squares of brass soldered next to the rail on the tie bar to beef up the joint. I shall again be using moving sleepers on Bath. I am very much an advocate of the KISS principal - I need to be as a simple sort of chap regards Jerry http://www.jerrycliffordmodels.co.uk/index.html 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2011 Regarding the tiebar issue. This was always controversial issue and not just for 2mm. I think people get far too hung up about tie/stretcher bars. I have seen some fiendishly complex solutions put forward. On Highbury I have used moving PCB sleepers which I am told are visualy obtrusive (nobody has ever commented and indeed generally have to ask what system I use) not very strong (one joint has broken in the last twelve years of home use and fifty odd shows, no sleepers have broken). The tie bar is a normal PCB sleeper with a hole in the middle for the wire from the below baseboard TOU. I used little squares of brass soldered next to the rail on the tie bar to beef up the joint. I shall again be using moving sleepers on Bath. Most people don't count sleepers on a point so don't seem to notice a single extra sleeper on a point. I use the same system (without the little sections of brass). I have broken sleepers when fitting the point motors but once in all seems to have survived without issues. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold queensquare Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2011 Most people don't count sleepers on a point so don't seem to notice a single extra sleeper on a point. I use the same system (without the little sections of brass). I have broken sleepers when fitting the point motors but once in all seems to have survived without issues. Hi Kris, I don't use an extra sleeper, I simply use the one nearest the tip of the blades. See http://2mmcalemodels.fotopic.net/c1405332.html not the clearest picture, taken about four years ago at the AGM. Jerry 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2mm Dabbler Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2011 Good points about using sleepers and I've seen the film strip method used to good effect. Incidentally Bill Blackburn's method isn't actually discontinued, 2mm Association Shop 1 will no longer stock it once sold out but will still be available directly from Bill. Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2011 Incidentally Bill Blackburn's method isn't actually discontinued, 2mm Association Shop 1 will no longer stock it once sold out but will still be available directly from Bill. That's true. I have enough in stock for the next layout and possibly the one after that as well. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 2mmMark Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2011 My method for tiebars is to use a shortened 4mm sleeper, inverted, filed down widthways to fit between two normal point sleepers. Because the entire gap is filled, it’s surprisingly unobtrusive. The 4mm sleeper is thicker than the sleepers supplied by the 2mm Scale Association so it needs a slot cutting in the trackbed but being thicker, is much more robust. What I also like to do is arrange a pivoted joint between the tiebar and switch rails. I believe this very much aids reliability. Someone suggested to me (it may have been Tim Watson) that it would be possible to texture the top of the 4mm sleeper so what you get is “moving ballastâ€. I intend to try this at the next time I build some pointwork. I’m with Jerry on the combination of Easitrac for plain track and PCB for pointwork. My preference is for the “Easiline†stepped chairplates but the Association has taken the rather perverse decision to discontinue them. Combined with the pointwork construction jigs, they are very easy to use. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RedgateModels Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks for the observation; I'm afraid I can't claim any originality to the idea - I saw it on a thread a couple of weeks ago and thought that it was a brilliant idea (I'm not proud, I'll plagiarise anything... ). But Steve, how did you get the mirrored print out of Templot? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveBedding Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Thanks again to everyone for the input - there is some real gems of experience coming out here and I certainly intend to shamelessly poach all the great ideas! I have to say though that I'm a fully paid up member of the KISS supporters club (I used to like their music too...) and a firm believer in the 80% solution! But Steve, how did you get the mirrored print out of Templot? That one was quite easy actually... Select all items to form a group (Tabs > group > group select all templates) Work out the mirror line - either horizontal or vertical (Tabs > group > mirror group on X at notch - (X is for vertical axis - substitute Y for vertical axis)) Then move everything back to the desired datum point ie distance from notch to origin (Tabs > group > shift group by...) Ok it did seem easy after the event - I'm not a Templot expert, I only found this out by accident EDIT: I've attached a screen shot of Templot showing where the commands are that I used to create the 'mirror'... ...ignore the highlighted command, this is just where the mouse was when I took the snap shot. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 2mm Dabbler Posted February 10, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2011 Someone suggested to me (it may have been Tim Watson) that it would be possible to texture the top of the 4mm sleeper so what you get is “moving ballastâ€. I intend to try this at the next time I build some pointwork. I’m with Jerry on the combination of Easitrac for plain track and PCB for pointwork. My preference is for the “Easiline†stepped chairplates but the Association has taken the rather perverse decision to discontinue them. Combined with the pointwork construction jigs, they are very easy to use. Years ago I saw some anti-slip tape for use on boat decks. Although bright white I thought it might have some use representing ballast. Perhaps offcuts could be of use here as it would avoid the use of glue and loose ballast. Possibly too coarse for this scale though. Although Easiline is gone it should be possible to use the Versaline etches 1-131 instead. I recall Bob Jones writing that the Easiline plates were about 20% oversize. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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