Rail-Online Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Hi, I am sure many people have done this but I can't find it documented anywhere. I am sure I could work it out but it may not be the neatest solution(!) The Up and Down lines are non DCC with seperate control (common rtn - which is the upper rail on both tracks). Turnout control will be with Tortoises which give switching of the crossing (frog) with one set of terminals and another set of spare switches. Additional microswitches can be added. I am quite happy with all the isolation of the rails by cutting the copperclad so no need to worry about this. For those interested it is 18.83 gauge and the tightest radius 51" on the main (lower) tracks, the branch going off is slightly tighter. As always thanks for help in advance Cheers Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Hi, I am sure many people have done this but I can't find it documented anywhere. I am sure I could work it out but it may not be the neatest solution(!) The Up and Down lines are non DCC with seperate control (common rtn - which is the upper rail on both tracks). Turnout control will be with Tortoises which give switching of the crossing (frog) with one set of terminals and another set of spare switches. Additional microswitches can be added. I am quite happy with all the isolation of the rails by cutting the copperclad so no need to worry about this. For those interested it is 18.83 gauge and the tightest radius 51" on the main (lower) tracks, the branch going off is slightly tighter. As always thanks for help in advance Cheers Tony Tony The last time I built one I thought of it as 3 seperate turnouts. The diamond crossing needs to be isolated from the turnouts. The stock rails always remain the same polarity where as the V's change polarity. Again the turnout stock rails remain the same polarity again the V's change depending on the route. The tricky bit is changing the diamond's V's polarity to match the turnouts, if you use the same switch to throw both turnouts then you could use the accessory switches on the point motors to change the diamonds polarity as well as the turnouts polarity. Or have a point motor for the diamond and only use the accessory switch on it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 As Hayfield notes, the diamond vees need to be switchable. A neat way of doing this is to conditionally feed the diamond vees according to the turnout directions, but to add an interlock such that the facing turnout can't be moved to the normal position whilst the trailing turnout is in the reversed position, i.e. in signalling parlance, putting the trailing turnout into the normal position 'releases' the facing turnout control. Make sure your diamond vee feeds 'break' before 'making' from the other turnout. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted August 16, 2010 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 16, 2010 I've got a similar situation to wire on my layout and am going to have a four pole relay driven by the turnout that leads to the diamond. The Diamond will be split into four electrically, the two v's and the two 'K' crossings. Each will be connected to one pole of the relay with the correct feeds attached to the other 8 terminals. so that it is always corrctly wired depending on the setting of the turnout that leads across it. The spare auxilliary switch on the tortoise will drive the relay. I agree that if you can interlock the two points it would help so that something can;t go though the other turnout and hit a diamond that's got the wrong polarity. I believe that this is in line with styandard signalliung practice for double junctions. If you want a wiring diagram send me a PM. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted August 16, 2010 Author Share Posted August 16, 2010 Thanks hayfield & Miss Prism, I never thought about interlocking the trailing turnout so it releases the up one, and to be honest I would be worried about the vee breaking before making ass miss P points out. The two turnouts have to be independant to allow an Up train to pass a Down train going off onto the branch. I don't think it is really necessary for interlocking for this application. What I was really hoping for was a wiring diagram - any chance anyone? BTW progress continues and they are complete and tiebars in place, next I will gap the copperclad & add any missing rail breaks with the cutting disk. Incidentally it is in copperclad as it is "off scene" and on the return curve of the railway room. Cheers Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Hi I can't really tell from the photo, but have you left insulation gaps or fitted insulated rail joiners to all rails leading off the points running into the diamond? Also ideally on the frog rails leaving the diamond too? This will be needed to allow the diamond and the two points abutting it to have their frog polarity switched. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
naugytrax Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 I wired one of these with a relay and interlocking. One reason for the "interlocking" is that it seemed logically impossible to switch the rail feeds so that they were simultaneously correct for the facing turnout taking the lower route and the trailing turnout taking the upper route. Since I couldn't resolve the difficulty of this combination I simply disallowed it! With the use of continuous-feed turnout motors (Tortoises or Fulgurexes) you can simply connect the relay coil in parallel with one of the turnout motors via a diode so that the relay is only activated in one polarity of the turnout motor feed. This frees up the spare contacts on both of the turnout motors, so that they can both be used for signals, indicators etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Here is a little diagram that might help. Print it out and colour the wires to make it a bit clearer:- The polarity of the diamond is set by point 2, so make sure that point 2 is set straight if using point 1 in the straight through position, interlocking will be a good idea! I have included the power routing, but if you are using cab control with section switches for the sections to the right of the crossing there will be no need for the power routing and therefore you will not need to add a second micro-switch to point 2 to supplement the contacts on the tortoise. [Edited to correct diagram as per Tony's post below] Â Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted August 16, 2010 RMweb Gold Share Posted August 16, 2010 I think you will find that applying the double junction interlocking rule will simplify the logic of feeding the diamond. Taking it slighlty further than Miss P in a left hand junction the facing point reverse (i.e set to turn left) releases the trailing points t be set that way and in a right hand junction the trailing point releases the facer - thus you can never gset a conflicting route. By applying this rule you can establish which point position feeds the various parts of the diamond. The next step is to draw a diagram showing each running rail through the junction and (I find it helpful to use different colours) colour those rails which are permanently either the negative or positive side and work out which bits (e.g. the crossing vee in the points) need to be switched - then work out what point setting does the switching. Taking this slowly it is possible to do feed/switching diagrams for just about any track configuration but all the time all you are doing is building from the basic principle. Give it a try. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
scotcent Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 This is how I did it. Note the diamond is controlled from the lower turnout and the upper road is not available on the straight road unless the lower turnout is set normal. No mechanical interlocking involved. (There are more sophisticated ways of doing it). Incidentally I would suggest that Suzie has missed out some gaps around the diamond. Junction wiring 1.doc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted August 16, 2010 Share Posted August 16, 2010 Incidentally I would suggest that Suzie has missed out some gaps around the diamond. No, Suxie's gaps around the diamond are fine, the one you might think missing is not needed as its common return both sides. Suzie has not shown the internal gaps in the closure rails in either diamond or turnouts but the OP said he was fine with that bit. As compared to your diagram Suzie has added the power routing so it appears a bit more complex. As others have said it should never be possible to set two routes over the diamond at the same time as you will have a short on the diamond, and the prototype would not allow it anyway. The simple way to do this is to use a three position rotary switch. Switch left for both turnouts left, switch central for facing turnout left, trailing turnout right, switch right for both turnouts right. The 3 position rotaries come with 4 sets of contacts so you can easily do the switching for tortoise motors. If you are happy using a pair of relays then you can get by with a simple centre off toggle or even two seperate toggles with the wiring doing the interlock if you prefer that. Drive the tortoises locally off the relays reducing wiring to the panel. A couple of drawings attached I did when this question was asked last time, opposite hand to yours so just turn them upside down. DJ-2.xls Regards Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 This  is  how  I  did  it.  Note  the  diamond  is  controlled  from  the  lower  turnout  and  the  upper  road  is  not  available  on  the  straight  road  unless  the  lower  turnout  is  set  normal.  No  mechanical  interlocking  involved.  (There  are  more  sophisticated  ways  of  doing  it).  Incidentally  I  would  suggest  that  Suzie  has  missed  out  some  gaps  around  the  diamond. Junction wiring 1.doc This diagram is for DCC or a single controller as it only has one feed. You would only be able to run one train through the junction at a time on DC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 The electrical interlocking of the two tortoise motors is quite straightforward to do if you use simple DPDT switches to control them:- Switches are shown in the normal (straight) position. Point 2 (the trailing point) can only be changed from normal to reversed when point 1 (the facing point) is reversed for the diverging route. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Wow. Thanks to everyone! I should be able to do something with that now, great thanks. Suzie, I spent some time on your main (first) diagram and I think I have found an error, can you please check the 3rd switched connection down below Point 2, I think it should be fed from Feed 1, not feed 2. Thus when Point 2 is normal the first frog of the diamond is connected to the upper tracks feed (feed 1). Does this make sence? Cheers Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suzie Posted August 17, 2010 Share Posted August 17, 2010 Wow. Thanks to everyone! I should be able to do something with that now, great thanks. Suzie, I spent some time on your main (first) diagram and I think I have found an error, can you please check the 3rd switched connection down below Point 2, I think it should be fed from Feed 1, not feed 2. Thus when Point 2 is normal the first frog of the diamond is connected to the upper tracks feed (feed 1). Does this make sense? Â Cheers Tony You are completely correct Tony, I have erred. I have made this diagram from a DCC one the other way up and messed it up a bit. I will go back and correct it for you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted August 17, 2010 Author Share Posted August 17, 2010 Suzie, Great thanks, that is how I will wire it up and interlock it from the lever frame. Cheers Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikes Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 No, Suxie's gaps around the diamond are fine, the one you might think missing is not needed as its common return both sides. Suzie has not shown the internal gaps in the closure rails in either diamond or turnouts but the OP said he was fine with that bit. As compared to your diagram Suzie has added the power routing so it appears a bit more complex. As others have said it should never be possible to set two routes over the diamond at the same time as you will have a short on the diamond, and the prototype would not allow it anyway. The simple way to do this is to use a three position rotary switch. Switch left for both turnouts left, switch central for facing turnout left, trailing turnout right, switch right for both turnouts right. The 3 position rotaries come with 4 sets of contacts so you can easily do the switching for tortoise motors. If you are happy using a pair of relays then you can get by with a simple centre off toggle or even two seperate toggles with the wiring doing the interlock if you prefer that. Drive the tortoises locally off the relays reducing wiring to the panel. A couple of drawings attached I did when this question was asked last time, opposite hand to yours so just turn them upside down. DJ-2.xls DJ-1.gif DJ-3.gif Regards Keith Hi Keith Thanks for your diagram as it has massively helped me understand how to wire up the junction that i have, which is exactly the same layout and handing as your diagram, very considerate of you to draw it this way! One thing im slightly confused with is how to incorporate a 3 position rotary into the diagram... how would i do this, and does this require the use of relays?! note - im non DCC, using a gaugemaster twin track controller, and all electrofrog points/diamond. Kind regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted June 6, 2013 Share Posted June 6, 2013 One thing im slightly confused with is how to incorporate a 3 position rotary into the diagram... There are quite a lot of ways to do it, very dependent on the point motors you are using and the power supply arrangements, provide that info and I'll do a drawing. Whether or not you need relays is a similar issue, if the point motors have contacts like tortoise, it may be you can manage without, on the other hand relays are cheap and often make things easier. Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium BR60103 Posted June 7, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 7, 2013 I have a double junction with Tortoise motors. I found some suplus (telephone key?) switches with double DPDT wiring and an interlock between them. I think the same could be made with 2 slide switches if there were a mechanical block between them so that the couldn't both be pushed to the middle at the same time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikes Posted June 7, 2013 Share Posted June 7, 2013 There are quite a lot of ways to do it, very dependent on the point motors you are using and the power supply arrangements, provide that info and I'll do a drawing. Whether or not you need relays is a similar issue, if the point motors have contacts like tortoise, it may be you can manage without, on the other hand relays are cheap and often make things easier. Keith Thanks Keith that would be a massive help, i had'nt really decided on point motors, was wondering if I could get away with manual, but then seeing as i'm wiring all the frogs up i might as well motorise the points too, so i reckon i will use cobalt motors. Power supply will be an independent transformer which can be either 16v AC or 12v DC. Hope that helps. Regards Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.