Nightstar stock - photos of it in action

[jjb1970]

Even at the time I thought most of the plans around taking channel tunnel services North of London were a triumph of hope and optimism over reality. And that was before the full impact of the LCC air travel transformation had become apparent.

[nightstar.train]

Even at the time I thought most of the plans around taking channel tunnel services North of London were a triumph of hope and optimism over reality. And that was before the full impact of the LCC air travel transformation had become apparent.

Maybe. Although as someone living in the frozen north I’d love to board a sleeper train at Glasgow Central and wake up in Paris, or Amsterdam, or Germany. And that’s even with low cost airfares available.

But it was never tried so we shall never know.

[hmrspaul]

Railways (And air travel) were remarkably different when these were planned. It is interesting to see these, and for a few years would have been useful for our work trips from York IF they could have arrived early enough. But the one set of timetable suggestions I saw, IIRC, had quite a late arrival in Brussels - well after 09.00 and therefore useless for meetings - even the EU ones I was involved with which started at 10.00 (but pre meeting socialising is very important at the EU as anyone whom has watched any of the televised EU meetings will have seen). Pathing through the Brussels rush hour would have proven difficult

 

As it was the improvement in the speed of the trains as more and more of the lines were high speed meant returning to the north of England was easy and the increase in UK trains helped, as did the move to St. P. So the use of the return overnight service would not have been justified. With the increase in security requiring long checkin the airlines couldn't compete for the custom of middle England and I believe an analysis of seat numbers availability would show a considerable decrease for many of the routes from London and middle England. [Leeds Bradford to Brussels built to 4 flights with c80 seaters from 3 with 31 seats (including jump seat between pilots which I have seen used by the public) and then down again - with Sabena going to the wall. Post 26 is right!

 

Paul

[dibber25]

As it was, the Canadians got a dubious  'bargain' at the expense of the UK taxpayer. Without rechecking the figures, I think they were sold for about one tenth of their actual cost. They enabled VIA Rail to withdraw the last of the 1950s 'painted' cars (the ex-Canadian National stock) which was down at heel and proving expensive to keep in traffic. Adapting the the Nightstars was, however, something of a dog's breakfast, particularly the 'converter' cars. Now, as VIA shops around for new locomotives and stock it seems it will be the 1990s Nightstar and 1970s LRC vehicles that will be replaced, while vehicles built in the 1950s will soldier on. (CJL)

[The Stationmaster]

I read somewhere (possibly on another forum) that two of the problems with Nightstar were the need to maintain customs facilities at all the regional destinations, as well as the high speed lines in France being closed at night which would make the journey longer. What sort of timings were expected compared to Eurostar services (assuming plans had got that far)?

 

Customs was an irrelevance in most respects however security checks weren't and would have been carried out on train using portable scanning machones .  The fact that the SNCF LGV were closed at night were also largely an irrelevance because all the sleeper trains had to go to Calais Ville in any case for loco purposes (which was why BR AWS was installed right through to and including Calais Ville) and in any case the sleeper vehicles and locos could hardly run at LGV speeds!   A lot of time was taken up by loco changes, fir example a 'beyond London' sleeper train from Swansea or Plymouth would have changed engines (in the original trainplan) at Kensington, have had a second loco added on the rear at Dollands Moor, and have had both engines taken off at Calais Ville to be replaced by a single SNCF loco for the rest of the journey to Paris - that would have meant that during its journey it would have been worked. by a total of 5 different locos  plus a generator van for part of the journey, absolutely crazy economics and with the train leaving Plymouth for example before 19.00.

[The Stationmaster]

Even at the time I thought most of the plans around taking channel tunnel services North of London were a triumph of hope and optimism over reality. And that was before the full impact of the LCC air travel transformation had become apparent.

 

The reality for Regional Eurostar was actually achievable and the operational feasibility was proven.  But the market - despite lots of bold numbers - was in reality very restricted and the journeys were really too long to be particularly attractive to many people while being totally useless for most business travellers.

[mdvle]

As it was, the Canadians got a dubious  'bargain' at the expense of the UK taxpayer. Without rechecking the figures, I think they were sold for about one tenth of their actual cost. They enabled VIA Rail to withdraw the last of the 1950s 'painted' cars (the ex-Canadian National stock) which was down at heel and proving expensive to keep in traffic. Adapting the the Nightstars was, however, something of a dog's breakfast, particularly the 'converter' cars. Now, as VIA shops around for new locomotives and stock it seems it will be the 1990s Nightstar and 1970s LRC vehicles that will be replaced, while vehicles built in the 1950s will soldier on. (CJL)

 

There is currently no funding for VIA to replace the Nightstar stock, all that has been funded is the corridor equipment (so LRC and some ex-US stainless equipment).

 

Next year is an election year for Canada, so the government's budget in the spring will be an election budget and I would be surprised if there is any more funding for VIA next year given VIA is not usually an election issue any more.

 

If there ever is money to replace the Nightstar stock (as opposed to just letting the service die) then they really should go for a combined new equipment for both the Ocean and the Canadian.

[davknigh]

There is currently no funding for VIA to replace the Nightstar stock, all that has been funded is the corridor equipment (so LRC and some ex-US stainless equipment).

 

Next year is an election year for Canada, so the government's budget in the spring will be an election budget and I would be surprised if there is any more funding for VIA next year given VIA is not usually an election issue any more.

 

If there ever is money to replace the Nightstar stock (as opposed to just letting the service die) then they really should go for a combined new equipment for both the Ocean and the Canadian.

I fear you are right but we have been told that getting people out of their cars is a big priority, we’ll, that’s what we’re supposed to believe in lieu of doing anything. Successive governments have been trying to kill off passenger service since the inception of VIA but they haven’t quite succeeded, yet. Money is going to be a BIG problem for everything given the trade wars stirred up by he who shall not be named and the current opposition is bound to go populist and promise to cut taxes “so we’ll all have more money to spend” . Enjoy the trains while you can, I’m not at all optimistic.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[Siberian Snooper]

When I went coast to coast a couple of years ago all the trains were well patronized,but most were English tourists plus a smattering from other "English" speaking countries and on the Canadian a few Chinese and Japanese.

 

I would recommend the trip to anyone and I quite fancy going West to East, if there's a next time.

[adanapress]

Odd to hear of the stock being stored at Kineton,  I seem to recall photos being published of quite a few cars previously hidden away in the MOD sidings on Shoeburyness.   I think that very soon after those pics being published,  someone - in DafT? - got their finger out and the sale was made to Canada, but maybe I haven't got that sequence right.  There was all sorts in those sidings at the time.

[paulbb]

I fear you are right but we have been told that getting people out of their cars is a big priority, we’ll, that’s what we’re supposed to believe in lieu of doing anything. Successive governments have been trying to kill off passenger service since the inception of VIA but they haven’t quite succeeded, yet. Money is going to be a BIG problem for everything given the trade wars stirred up by he who shall not be named and the current opposition is bound to go populist and promise to cut taxes “so we’ll all have more money to spend” . Enjoy the trains while you can, I’m not at all optimistic.

 

Cheers,

 

David

I did enjoy them. Some of them are currently deployed on the Montreal Quebec City service when I was there a few weeks ago, and the ride is way superior to the Budd ones, as CJL says. However I do recommend  railfans to ride the Canadian from Vancouver to to Toronto-the 1957 vintage cars give a nice rocking motion which gave me 3 nights of rather pleasant sleep!

[R.Langley]

Customs was an irrelevance in most respects however security checks weren't and would have been carried out on train using portable scanning machones .  The fact that the SNCF LGV were closed at night were also largely an irrelevance because all the sleeper trains had to go to Calais Ville in any case for loco purposes (which was why BR AWS was installed right through to and including Calais Ville) and in any case the sleeper vehicles and locos could hardly run at LGV speeds!   A lot of time was taken up by loco changes, fir example a 'beyond London' sleeper train from Swansea or Plymouth would have changed engines (in the original trainplan) at Kensington, have had a second loco added on the rear at Dollands Moor, and have had both engines taken off at Calais Ville to be replaced by a single SNCF loco for the rest of the journey to Paris - that would have meant that during its journey it would have been worked. by a total of 5 different locos  plus a generator van for part of the journey, absolutely crazy economics and with the train leaving Plymouth for example before 19.00.

Is that still the case?

[dibber25]

I did enjoy them. Some of them are currently deployed on the Montreal Quebec City service when I was there a few weeks ago, and the ride is way superior to the Budd ones, as CJL says. However I do recommend  railfans to ride the Canadian from Vancouver to to Toronto-the 1957 vintage cars give a nice rocking motion which gave me 3 nights of rather pleasant sleep!

 

You were lucky! I've only done Eastbound once and we were a mere four and a half hours late. Now, I understand, 24 hours late is not unusual! However, it wasn't just the lateness, Stuart Manor, had wheel flats and equipment underneath which banged and crashed all night long. I left a 'Red Card' note which the steward saw and he told me that particular car had been getting worse all summer and he would report it again. However, I suspect that VIA's slimmed-down fleet doesn't have sufficient spare cars, particularly when the summer Canadian loads to upwards of 20 cars. A desperately sad way to run  railway. The trip cost me £1,100 one way, and I vowed I would never take the Canadian again. I've been tempted to try again but there are other potentially interesting trips to do, which I haven't tried yet. I'm doing Sudbury-White River in the Budd cars this year. When Chris Tarrant and the BBC did it, it was a mere three hours late. (CJL)

[davknigh]

IIRC there was some publicity about VIA replacing the trucks on the stainless steel coaches. Now all they have to do is get the freights out of the way.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[The Stationmaster]

Is that still the case?

 

More or less. Security checking is the most important part and is a legal requirement under the Channel Tunnel Act and it is rigidly adhered to.  Passport checks at the French end (towards London) were drastically increased due to problems with illegals trying to use the route and Bruxelles was at one time pretty heavy on passport checks in both direction.  Equally passport check into London are still presumably fairly rigorous.  The UK Customs checks are best not talked about for obvious reasons but certainly at Waterloo they were extremely good at catching miscreants.  The only Customs checks I have ever seen in Paris are those using using sniffing dogs on UK bound passengers.  

 

In something over 200 trips in a space of 6 years I was never asked to show my passport when entering France and in fact before the outward checks by UK Customs were introduced at Paris there were a few occasions when I travelled from Paris to London without showing my passport but used my identity badge instead and told the Passport chap my passport was in my luggage (which it was) but the ability to do that ended once the on-train passport checks ceased.

[R.Langley]

That's very interesting Mike.

 

I must admit, I was trying to find out about the status of the AWS at Calais Ville, is that still extant?

[The Lurker]

You were lucky! I've only done Eastbound once and we were a mere four and a half hours late. Now, I understand, 24 hours late is not unusual! However, it wasn't just the lateness, Stuart Manor, had wheel flats and equipment underneath which banged and crashed all night long. I left a 'Red Card' note which the steward saw and he told me that particular car had been getting worse all summer and he would report it again. However, I suspect that VIA's slimmed-down fleet doesn't have sufficient spare cars, particularly when the summer Canadian loads to upwards of 20 cars. A desperately sad way to run  railway. The trip cost me £1,100 one way, and I vowed I would never take the Canadian again. I've been tempted to try again but there are other potentially interesting trips to do, which I haven't tried yet. I'm doing Sudbury-White River in the Budd cars this year. When Chris Tarrant and the BBC did it, it was a mere three hours late. (CJL)

We did Vancouver - Jasper last summer. 23 coaches. It arrived about 4 hours late into Jasper, having been delayed by the Westbound, which was much later. The next week the Air Canada flight from Calgary to Toronto was delayed by more than 8 hours, though it did arrive about 2 1/2 days before the Canadian would have.

[The Stationmaster]

That's very interesting Mike.

 

I must admit, I was trying to find out about the status of the AWS at Calais Ville, is that still extant?

 

I was told some time ago that it had been removed but as it c.20 years since I was last on the platform there I can't say anything more recent based on personal observation (it was definitely there back then).