On Tim L's P4 Workbench - progress with locos

[45609]

It's pretty much the only D11 drawing available....

 

Not really.  You can get the OPC drawings (Pipe & Rod and G.A.) from the NRM for the D10, D11/1 and D11/2.

 

Microfilm aperture card references

 

D10: 10386 (Full detail of cab and splashers), 12384 (GA)

D11/1 : 10382 (P&R),  12388 (GA)

D11/2: 10391 (GA)*, 10740 (GA)*, 12082 (GA), 12083 (P&R), 13153 (GA)*

 

The asterisk* means that it is not immediately obvious from the OPC description if is relates to the D11/2 but it is most likely that it does.  Also there is a reference, below, that clearly has an error in wheel arrangement or loco class.  All these cards can be viewed freely in the NRM search engine and copies ordered.

 

10406: Full longitudinal section of 4-6-0 passr engine D11 GC/LNE

Edited January 7, 2014 by mlgilbert30

[Horsetan]

 

Not really.  You can get the OPC drawings (Pipe & Rod and G.A.) from the NRM for the D10, D11/1 and D11/2.

 

....

 

 

...some of which is reproduced in the E.M. Johnson book anyway. But the scales used in the book are quite weird, and would require very careful reduction.

[Grovenor]

Did you have to 'quarter' the gears on the axles to coincide with the quartering of the wheels, or is there enough slop in the system for it not to matter if the gear teeth are slightly out?

It does beg the question though, why on earth have Bachmann added all those gears, they have been making locos relying on their coupling rods perfectly successfully, as recently as the Compound (definitely) and Lanky tank (I think), for 4 coupled wheel examples, when they suddenly do this which must add to the cost. And certainly has potential to get a mismatch between gears and rods. I would be very inclined to leave one gear off and rely on the coupling through the rods. I think you were very lucky if you did not check this, the only way to guarantee no mismatch would be to leave enough slop in the rods to allow for the half tooth mismatch without the rods binding.

This gear coupling of steam locos is a dodge usually used by European makers to let them build long locos, 2-10-0s and the like with articulated chassis to bend round toy train corners, the articulation needing the rods to be effectively disabled and just go round for the ride. Completely useless on a 4-4-0.

Keith

Edited January 7, 2014 by Grovenor

[Tim Lewis]

Luckily, a friend (thanks, Steve!) had a copy of the Johnson book, which I've now borrowed.  There is also a drawing in the May 1974 Model Railways, which he also had a copy of.  So, at some point I'll get round to making some cosmetic frames.

 

Took it round to a friend's house last Monday to run around his (rather large) roundy-roundy.  It performed OK, but the fact that I'd used pinpoints for two of the tender axles resulted in NO sideplay or vertical play, such that any tiny imperfection in track gauge could cause derailing.  I've therefore switched back to the original Bachmann axles for all 3 axles in the tender.  I suppose I could have filed away a bit of the inside of the tender frame so that the pinpoint bearings were further apart, but the Bachmann axles run fine.  I will also add some weight, as the tender weighs next to nothing.  We'll see if this brings an improvement (it still runs fine in a straight line!!) 

[PenrithBeacon]

It does beg the question though, why on earth have Bachmann added all those gears ...

I currently converting two Bachmann Class 108 dmus and the drive bogies have the same arrangement of a pyramid of gears. One works OK the other 'chugs' a little. When you bear in mind the effect of engineering tolerances on such an assembly it doesn't come as a surprise that performance is variable, but then a complete two car unit retails at less than £100 and a Blackbeetle power bogie alone retails at around £87.

 

Regards

[John Tomlinson]

The Bachmann 9F also has geared drive to two axles. One of my two examples runs not too well at slow speed, and at an exhibition I mentioned this to a Bachmann rep to see if they knew of any particular faults. He suggested removing the cog to one of the axles, so that the loco would then have one axle only powered direct, with the others linked via the rods. I haven't actually done this but it makes some sense as otherwise there are two potentially locking forces, as has been described above.

 

John.

[Grovenor]

I currently converting two Bachmann Class 108 dmus and the drive bogies have the same arrangement of a pyramid of gears. One works OK the other 'chugs' a little. When you bear in mind the effect of engineering tolerances on such an assembly it doesn't come as a surprise that performance is variable, but then a complete two car unit retails at less than £100 and a Blackbeetle power bogie alone retails at around £87.

 

Regards

The puzzle here is adding the gears between axles that already have coupling rods resulting in potential conflict between the two. This does not apply to the DMU bogies where there are no coupling rods, you might like to open up the chuggy one and look for some dirt or mould flash on the gears.

Keith

[PenrithBeacon]

The puzzle here is adding the gears between axles that already have coupling rods resulting in potential conflict between the two. This does not apply to the DMU bogies where there are no coupling rods, you might like to open up the chuggy one and look for some dirt or mould flash on the gears.

Keith

Thanks for that. To do a conversion to P4 you have to take off the keeper plate so as to replace the wheels and axles and having done so I can see nothing that will cause the problem. Fortunately it isn't so noticeable at the very slow speeds the unit will be called upon to do. If it does really become an issue then Branchlines and Replica Railways do very good replacement power bogies, but at a price!

 

Regards

[Tim Lewis]

Last seen somewhere back on page 1 about 5 years ago  , I've recently finished off the first batch of wagons for my cattle train.

 

The reason for the very long delay was that I messed up varnishing over the numbers, like this:

 

 

 

Of course, this didn't reveal itself until the varnish dried, by which time I'd numbered all seven of them. I couldn't face stripping the transfers off, so I put them away whilst I contemplated what to do with them.  Earlier this year, I thought I'd have a go at masking it with weathering.  An initial dry brushing produced something like this:

 

 

 

which looked suitably encouraging, so I pressed on with the rest of them.  After much further detail weathering, and also adding buffers, vac pipes, tethering rings etc etc they're more or less finished now.

 

 

As you can see, the roofs are not yet fully fixed in position, and I need to come up with a better way of securing the steam pipes (as half of them have fallen off!), but other than that, they're done. Here's the full train behind my J39, (still in strange hybrid livery and with cock-eyed tender):

 

 

 

and here again, posed on my good friend Gavin Clark's rapidly evolving L&Y terminus layout:

 

 

 

 

 

 

(some LSWR stock was visiting as well!)

 

I've also re-wheeled a short rake of Gresley suburbans (4 of them, although only one shown here):

 

 

 

 

 

Here's the cattle train leaving behind the J39:

 

 

 

 

 

You can see the layout at Scalefour North in April (but without my J39 or D11, or the LSWR stock!)

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[Tim Lewis]

No posts for a while - the usual reasons of too much work, not enough time for modelling etc. etc.  However, there has been a bit of progress.  When Bachmann released their LNER vans and opens (a few years ago now - time files), I bought a few of each.  I have now finally finished swapping the wheels and adding weight.  Most ran OK individually without extra weight, but in a longish train there tended to be too many derailments, and they definitely benefit from more weight.  

 

These are intended to form the basis of a diverted ECML freight for Coldstream.

 

The vans weigh in at about 34g as bought: happily, you can remove the underframe and the floor and attach weight inside the van body.  I've added 3 nominal 5g balance weights to bring them up to around 50g.

 

 

Not really the right motive power, but it'll do for now.  And the opens:

 

 

These only weigh about 22g as bought.  There is space for a bit more weight between underframe and body, but you can only get as far as around 26-27g this way - not really enough.  Drastic surgery would be required to get more in.  I couldn't be bothered with this, so they will run with loads (if I want some empties, I'll use the Parkside kits).  Currently their precious cargo consists of over-sized balance weights!

 

 

Bringing up the rear is a bogie bolster and brake van, again from Bachmann:

 

 

These wagons are not quite as good as you could produce from kits, but less effort!  However, there's still much to do in the way of renumbering and weathering and (especially the bogie bolster) some added detailing, but at least I've got a reasonable train to run whilst I do this.

 

Away from RTR conversions, an ex-NER V4 brake is also taking shape:

 

 

This is from a D&S kit which I think I picked up at the Scaleforum bring-and-buy a few years back.  There was one there this year too, with a price tag of £40!  It wasn't there at the end of the weekend, so presumably somebody forked out for it.  Probably they didn't know that it's currently re-available from D&S for (I think) £16.50 or thereabouts.

 

Hopefully get a bit more done over the coming winter months.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[Tim Lewis]

Remarkably, there has been an outbreak of modelling!

 

The NER brake has progressed a bit.  Here is the completed body (except for grabrails and roof) in primer:

 

 

 

I was pretty pleased with the lamp irons, which can just about be seen on this picture (it has also grown a few grab rails):

 

 

 

These were made from some nickel silver tie-bars off a Dave Bradwell etch.  These are half-etched where they attach to the axleguards and, with a bit of thought about where the bends should be, you can end up with the half-etched bit as a nicely thin but (moderately!) strong vertical piece (where the lamp loops over - don't know the proper name!)

 

The grabrails on these are a bit of a nightmare: originally there were 23 (depending on exactly how you count them).  At some point in their history, 4 got taken off (hurray!), but then another 8 got put on (boo!).  So, a total of just 27 then (includes one on the roof in case you're wondering why it's an odd number - I don't know for sure that the V4s had them, but certainly the very similar Toad B/E did).

 

Anyway, here's one side with a complete compliment of them:

 

 

 

The really tricky ones are those that butt join to others - requires some quick work with a soldering iron.  Only a few more to do on the other side now.  Has taken the best part of a full days modelling so far...still, at least it's progress.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[cheesysmith]

The Bachmann bogie bolster wagon, if it is the same one, is from the old mainline tooling. Check it for warping, as i have found some examples have warped. Apart from that it is based on the GWR design, with the DC brakes, and has been pointed out it has wooden bolsters, it is also very light. If you take it apart, you will find a void inside for a added weight that was not used. It is a good idea to add extra mass into this void as there is few other places to do this and hide it from view. Why Bachmann did not add this originally...?

[Adam]

The Bachmann bogie bolster wagon, if it is the same one, is from the old mainline tooling. Check it for warping, as i have found some examples have warped. Apart from that it is based on the GWR design, with the DC brakes, and has been pointed out it has wooden bolsters, it is also very light. If you take it apart, you will find a void inside for a added weight that was not used. It is a good idea to add extra mass into this void as there is few other places to do this and hide it from view. Why Bachmann did not add this originally...?

 

It certainly looks like it, although, in an attempt to disguise this, it has some rather inaccurate diamond frame bogies installed. It's a bogie bolster C (GW name Macaw - details determine which sort). There's a gallery on Paul Bartlett's pages:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster

 

Adam

[Tim Lewis]

It certainly looks like it, although, in an attempt to disguise this, it has some rather inaccurate diamond frame bogies installed. It's a bogie bolster C (GW name Macaw - details determine which sort). There's a gallery on Paul Bartlett's pages:

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/gwrbolster

 

Adam

 

Hmm, thanks for that.  Sounds like I have more work to do to the bogie bolster than I first thought.  To be honest, I hadn't really looked closely at it so far.  I'll get round to it at some point, in the meantime, it can run as it is (I did add weight as suggested by cheesy smith and it runs tolerably well considering it doesn't (yet) have any springing/compensation etc.)

[cheesysmith]

Anybody wanting to change one of these Bachmann wagons to the BR version, which was just a virtually identical build, with different brakes, bogies and steel toppings to the wooden bolsters, most of the bits are available as aftermarket parts. Rumney models do a etch for the brake levers. If you don't use springing/compensation Cambrian do replacement bogies. Lanarkshire models and supplies do replacement buffers.

 

Can you tell I've been doing some myself?

[Mad McCann]

Don't be shy, El Cheeso; get some pictures on here so we can look and learn! ;-)

 

Dave. 

[Tim Lewis]

Finally, some progress to report.  I've been making an effort to try and finish off various things that have been lurking part-finished on the 'windowsill of shame' (to borrow a rather wonderful phrase from Dave Bradwell) for far too long.  Way back in post 19 over 7 years ago  , I said I'd made some Masokits wagon sub-frames.  These were intended to sit under wagons forming one of the pick-up goods for Coldstream, a combination of Parkside, Cambrian, Ratio and some very old 3H kits.  Well, at last, some of the wagons are approaching completion, but not all of them used the sub-frames.  I found that the solebar mouldings on the 3H kits and (some) Cambrian ones were too thick: filing them thinner resulted in the moulded W-irons disappearing, and as the sub-frames only include 'pedestal' shapes rather than proper W-irons, this causes a problem and means the sub-frames can't be used.  To be fair, Mike Clark does say in the instructions that the sub-frames are primarily designed for Parkside kits.  I also didn't use them on the Ratio kits either, primarily because of the way the kits are designed: the solebar moulding includes part of the floor and I couldn't be bothered figuring out how to approach this, so decided to use a different method for those wagons (full Rumney underframes, not yet done).  The other irritating thing about the sub-frames is that only a GWR-style brake lever guide is provided, so I used some spare Bradwell ones instead.

 

Anyway, here's some pictures of progress to date:

 

At the rear is the NER brake van (see earlier posts) and 2 LNER unfitted vans.  These are old 3H kits which I've fitted with 'normal' Masokits W-irons, brake push rods from Bill Bedford, Bradwell level guide etc.

 

 

Then there's a Cambrian LMS unfitted D1832A van and a Parkside BR 1/208:

 

 

Then a Parkside BR 1/230 fruit van and 1/213 plywood van:

 

 

Next is another D1832A and a BR 5-plank open (which will have a tarpaulin bar):

 

 

And here's what the train looks like behind my J25:

 

 

Obviously still lots of bits to do, as well as painting, weathering etc., but it's getting somewhere.

 

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[Tim Lewis]

Some more progress on the pickup goods.  Having got slightly frustrated with the Masokits sub-frames for anything other than Parkside kits, I tried my hand at a Rumney Models underframe (the new 17'6" RCH one (B32) for 9' wheelbase).  First time I've built a Rumney one (there are several in the drawer): it is marvellous!  Everything fits exactly where it's supposed to with a very minimum of cleaning up of etches required.  The design is brilliant: helpful ways of aligning components are 'built-in'.  Very enjoyable to build.  I elected to leave some of the solebar detailing and spring stops until the end (will superglue on), as my soldering can be a bit ham-fisted.  Also used the very neat buffer springing etch - much easier to get softer springing than with my usual methods.  This is what it looks like:

 

 

and with the body loosely fitted (Cambrian LMS un-ventilated van): 

 

 

I was having so much fun I started another, this time the 10' equivalent.  I found that this one needed more care in folding up the headstocks, as it can also be built for shock-absorbing wagons, and consequently some of the underframe detail can be visible: this looks great, but is vulnerable to bending when you fold the headstock if you're not careful.  Still, a minor thing really.  This is what it looks like so far (with a Ratio van body plonked on):

 

 

These are such excellent products: I will definitely be building more of them.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[Adam]

They look really good, Tim - you're much better at hiding solder than I am! Not that these underframes require very much, for the most part. As you say, they're superb bits of design and excellent value for money.

 

Among my current projects are a selection of tank wagons, two of which use Justin's chassis as a basis; I wouldn't have contemplated either without them. Here's one, a GW milk tank, complicated by the fact that it's designed to work with David Geen's kit (and hence his solebars, headstocks and sundry bits of brakegear). Mine will be cross-bred with a LIMA tank and fittings...

 

Adam

[iak]

Lovely stuff.

Beware of the Rumney stuff as it is addictive.

[Tim Lewis]

Lovely stuff.

Beware of the Rumney stuff as it is addictive.

Yes, it is.  Following on from those two underframes, I've had a go at a tarpaulin bar fitted to a Parkside BR open.  Partly due to inherent fiddliness, but mainly because of my soldering ineptitude, this took me a (very) long time.  However, as with the underframes, it's a very clever design, and the end result is excellent.

 

Some of the wagons in the pickup goods are beginning to take on their identities: here's the 1/230 fruit van:

 

and the BR 1/208 ventilated van:

 

Notice in the picture above that it has quite 'spaced out' numerals typical of some of the earlier builds of this diagram.  However, photographic evidence (see for example a couple of pictures in Geoff Kent's 4mm Wagon Volume 2) shows that they tended to use a different font as well (not sure whether these were transfers or sign-written).  Despite being built at Faverdale, to me the font looks more like that used by the LMS rather than LNER.  So, on the other side of this van, I used some LMS transfers instead.  This makes a nice change, and anyway is typical of the period I'm modelling (slight 'silvering' should disappear once varnished/weathered):

 

The two Rumney underframes are pretty much complete now.  I've temporarily 'de-sprung' the buffers awaiting priming.  Van bodies have received their base colours:

 

That's about it for now.  It's surprising how long all this takes!  I should really be doing more on the layout, but I do also want to finish this pickup. All good fun!

[Adam]

Hi Tim, I like the lettering variation (I don't think we modellers pay this sort of thing enough attention). I'm absolutely certain that these were signwritten rather marked up than stencils or transfers and quite a lot of early BR practise, in many areas of rolling stock had the print of Derby which perhaps explains the lettering. Swindon, of course, did their own thing as did Ashford, but it was almost all signwritten. 

 

Adam

[Tim Lewis]

Willpower failure!!

 

I should be trying to finish off the existing wagons in the pickup goods (which now "only" need roofs, underframe painting, sprung buffers and couplings), but the desire to start something new got the better of me.

 

 

 

This is a Dave Bradwell LNER single bolster (Dia 197 I think).  Quite an interesting build - you need to take your time as the fit of parts is very precise and there's little or no room for any stray solder.  The bolster itself I found very fiddly, but got there in the end (although I'm not sure it would stand up to very close scrutiny).

 

Here's another view:

 

 

 

Just the shackles/chains and (wooden) floor to do.  The problem with single bolsters of course is that one by itself is precious little use, so this will eventually be joined by 3 more to form a 'mini-rake', but with a single, long load.  Will probably just do one more for now though, and leave the others for later.

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[Coal Tank]

Hi this is the first time I've seen this thread great modelling

John

[Tim Lewis]

A bit of an update on the current iteration of the pickup goods.  It has grown in length a bit - now 15 wagons.  All have had a first pass at underframe painting/weathering, coupling hooks on both ends and 3-links on one end so that they can be joined together into a train.  All lettering is complete, but no bodywork weathering as yet, and the van roofs are still not attached.  Unpainted wood floors also not done yet, plus a few other bits and pieces.

 

First of the 'new' wagons is a Parkside LNER 5-plank open, built as one of an unfitted batch to Diagram 210:

 

 

The other 3 new wagons are single bolsters.  I mentioned the Dave Bradwell ones in an earlier post: I have now (nearly) completed two of these, and decided to include an ex-NER one in the mini-rake.  Part way through building it I realised that I had bought the wrong one! - I bought Diagram D1 and should have got D2 - doh!  This was due to me mis-interpreting the information in Tatlow and on the Wizard Models website.  The main difference is the bolster, which on D2s can swivel, and have supporting woodwork on the floor.  So, I'll have to scratch build those bits, which I've not done yet.  Very simple kit.  I thought the LNER ones were small, but the NER ones are tiny!  Here's the rake:

 

 

Another couple of shots of the train, firstly some LMS vans and a BR open:

 

 

then this is another LMS van (with Rumney underframe to which it's still not attached - as you can see).  The livery on this is pre-1936 (I think) but there is a photo in one of Geoff Kent's books in this livery taken in 1949 (and looking in very good condition), so I thought it would make a nice change:

 

 

And finally for now, this is how the brake van looks now - still a bit to do on this:

 

 

So, it's getting there, but as usual it always takes ages to finish off the last bits.  The configuration of the train will no doubt change in future, but I'll finish it off like this for now.  Must get it done soon, as I really do need to get back to some layout infrastructure.

 

Cheers for now.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures