On Tim L's P4 Workbench - progress with locos

[Tim Lewis]

Very good thread. May I suggest you start a new thread as this transfer thread is sending my computer into overdrive!!

 

thanks

 

Hmm, yes, page 1 is rather long isn't it . I'd prefer to keep all my workbench stuff together if possible, so I'm hoping that now we're on page 2, it will be a bit quicker (if you use 'New Posts') . We'll see. If it's still unmanageable, then I'll do something about it.

[micklner]

Much better !!!

 

cheers

[Tim Lewis]

Not a hell of a lot been happening on the modelling front recently (not much change there then ), but to show I've not been completely idle, here's some pictures of a few wagons I got ready for Railex (to run on Lower Soudley).

 

Firstly, a couple of RCH 5-plank steel floor minerals:

 

 

 

The numbers on these are slightly arbitrary: I know they're in the range allocated to Chas. Roberts, but I've no idea of whether they're correct for these wagons (haven't been able to find any pictures). If anyone knows any 'correct' numbers, please let me know. I also painted these before I realised that ex-PO wagons weren't painted grey until after about 1958, which is a bit late for me really. So, one day, they may get re-painted, but not just yet.

 

I also did a couple of Bachmann BR 20T brake vans:

 

One of these is straight out of the box except for replacement P4 wheels, a bit of weight and a rather clumsy re-numbering job. The second one has had a little bit more effort expended: re-painted footboards, concrete end weights and roof, and some basic weathering/texturing to tone it down a bit.

 

 

This is the first time I've tarted up an RTR wagon. I was pretty impressed with the quality. The doors should have four windows rather than two (at least for this batch), but I can live with that. They run OK: would probably benefit from springing, but would need some fiddly carving of the floor and re-attachment of brakes etc. to fit commercial W-irons in, so I haven't bothered so far.

 

Finally, several people said nice things about the last steel floor I did (see earlier in thread), so here's a picture of the second one (sorry it's a bit out of focus): more rusty this time. Looks a bit orange in the photo but OK in the flesh.

 

 

That's all for now: might get round to doing some more modelling one of these days!

Edited January 31, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[Portchullin Tatty]

Hi Tim,

 

On my rather dodgy trackwork I did ultimately find that the slightly longer wheelbase of the brake van meant that it needed springing. I used Bill Bedford's for mine and reassembled the brake gear on metal rods as the plastic that Bachmann use is very slippery and does not glue well I find.

 

A bit of faff, but still easier than starting a kit from afresh. Especially as the model is subtly moulded, so looks the part.

 

 

[Tim Lewis]

Hi Tim,

 

On my rather dodgy trackwork I did ultimately find that the slightly longer wheelbase of the brake van meant that it needed springing. I used Bill Bedford's for mine and reassembled the brake gear on metal rods as the plastic that Bachmann use is very slippery and does not glue well I find.

 

A bit of faff, but still easier than starting a kit from afresh. Especially as the model is subtly moulded, so looks the part.

 

 

 

Thanks for that Mark. I might 'upgrade' to that at some point (Bachmann 'plastic' is a pain at times isn't it). I suppose what I should have done is use the Bradwell underframe that's been lurking in my to-do drawer for some time now, but it's fiendishly detailed, and I needed this van in a hurry!

[micklner]

What castings for the buffers and axleboxes are using for the Bradwell 20 ton Hoppers?. I have just bought a Bradwell etch to do a couple of the LNER version.

 

Mick

[Tim Lewis]

What castings for the buffers and axleboxes are using for the Bradwell 20 ton Hoppers?. I have just bought a Bradwell etch to do a couple of the LNER version.

 

Mick

 

The axleboxes and springs were separate castings that Dave either did himself or had commissioned not too long after the kit came out. I got a bag of each which I'm still working through. I have a feeling that they might now be available through MJT, but I could be wrong (on second thoughts D&S rings a bell, in which case they may have disappeared, although some of his whitemetal stuff did get taken over by somebody). Might be worth an e-mail to Dave to see if he still has any (they're not on his price list, but some of his 'bits and pieces' never are). The buffers are (I think: it's a long time since I built them) standard RCH ones: can't remember which make, I have Gibson, MJT, 51L and ABS all in stock! Some of these buffers look a little 'squat' to me. On the third of my hoppers I have currently used the longer RCH ones (really for fitted stock, from ABS), but these look a bit too long, so I might change them.

[micklner]

Thanks,

I will have a look at MJT. He mentions in the instructions that they maybe available in 1995 from MJT, whether thats the case now i will find out/ email him if necessary. Any idea what type of axleboxes they maybe ??

[Adam]

The MJT 'box mentioned is really only suitable for hoppers running in BR condition (2257A). What's actually wanted is an LNER pattern one (with the small handle on the front). The type MJT do (with spring) is probably a bit small since these hoppers had heavy duty journals, etc.

 

Adam

[craigwelsh]

51L did the heavy duty types of BR axleboxes for their Iron Ore hopper kit, Andrew sells them via MSE now. Must admit though the ones I have show quite a lot of flash on the rivet heads either side of the main box up close.

[Tim Lewis]

Here's some I made earlier...

 

Not much activity on the workbench for some time, but with the imminent release of Hornby's Thompson suburbans, I though I'd better post some pictures of a couple of coaches (that I made in EM originally about 25 years ago): they are in the process of being converted to P4 (and have been for ages!).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

But wait....all is not as it seems...

 

I think there is a fairly widespread mis-conception when it comes to suburban coaches that Gresley = wood and Thompson = steel. These however are Gresley steel-sided stock from the mid- to late-1930s. Can't remember the diagram numbers off hand. Built from Kemilway kits with MJT bogies. Amazing to think that the Kemilway kits are 35 years old now, and still up there with the best of 'em as far as etch quality and prototype fidelity goes.

 

One day I'll get round to finishing them off.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Tim Lewis
Re-instate pictures

[10800]

 

Amazing to think that the Kemilway kits are 35 years old now, and still up there with the best of 'em as far as etch quality and prototype fidelity goes.

 

 

And that applies to the lattice footbridge too, three of which I'm bashing (bashing? This is Kemilway, so maybe 'melding' or 'integrating' is better!) together for Balcombe.

[Tim Lewis]

New Year, new resolution??  Finally, some progress on the workbench - converting a D11/2 to P4 using Alan Gibson components.  There is a very useful 8-page set of illustrated instructions that can be downloaded from the Gibson website.

 

Here it is before starting, precariously balanced between two bits of P4 flexitrack.

 

 

Starting with the tender.  There is a choice of using the Bachmann axles, or pinpoints provided.  As in the instructions, I used pinpoints on the outer two, and the Bachmann one in the centre.  Having glued bearings into the holes, the pinpoints are a sod to get in: filing a V in the bearing flange makes life easier, but still a strain on the fingernails.  The pickups need bending to make contact with the new wheelsets.   A nicer solution might have been to use shorting wires on the wheels and re-use the Bachmann split axles, then I could also have used the Bachmann pickups without re-shaping them: if I ever do another one I might try that.

 

The bogie is pretty straightforward...

 

Then the drivers.  Removing the keeper plate exposes all the gears, and the Bachmann drivers can simply be lifted out.

 

You need to get the gears off the axles: easier said than done.  The instructions warn not to twist the gears as the axle is 'splined': what they don't tell you is that there are additional 'splined' sections at the end holding plastic bushes in place.  It took a fair bit of faffing to get the gears off.

 

The instructions then recommend rolling a biggish file across the axle to make a new 'splined' section to secure the gearwheel on the replacement axle.  I had my doubts whether this would work, but it seems to have done.  Once the gears are in their correct place on both axles, add the bearings and spacing washers, put axles back in the chassis and refit the keeper plate.

 

Then the rods need to be bushed:

 

 

..and fitted (along with crankpin bushes obviously):

 

Here's the finished item with a couple of re-wheeled Gresley suburbans.

 

Quite pleased with this.  It needs running in, but hopefully will run as well as it did before I messed around with it?!

 

There is more work to be done: I haven't yet added the 'extra' bits provided by Bachmann, and there is now a cavernous gap between the chassis block and the P4 wheelsets which needs partly filling with some wider cosmetic frames: likewise the bogie.  But as a quick route to a P4 D11, can't complain.  It took about 8-9 hours altogether, including faffing, blackening wheelsets, fitting crankpins etc etc.

[Wizard of the Moor]

Looking good, Tim! I have a similar conversion to do (together with renaming )

 

Did you have to 'quarter' the gears on the axles to coincide with the quartering of the wheels, or is there enough slop in the system for it not to matter if the gear teeth are slightly out?

[iak]

VERY tasty Mon.

I have to order some Gibson conversion bits methinks.

[Tim Lewis]

Looking good, Tim! I have a similar conversion to do (together with renaming )

I haven't yet decided whether to give it a change of identity.  When I was originally drawing up the list of locos needed for Coldstream, a D11/2 was a "nice to have" somewhere near the bottom of the list, but the appearance of the Bachmann one was just too good to miss.  They didn't get south of Edinburgh too much I don't think, although they were occasional visitors to the Waverley route - I've seen a picture of Edie Ochiltree near Hawick somewhere.  However, it my parallel universe, this will pull an Edinburgh-Newcastle via Galashiels and Kelso (a service which did exist in the 30s, but not for too long, and certainly not into the 50s).  For now, it'll stay as Lady of the Lake, but may change later on - there's some good names to conjure with!

[Tim Lewis]

Did you have to 'quarter' the gears on the axles to coincide with the quartering of the wheels, or is there enough slop in the system for it not to matter if the gear teeth are slightly out?

I was worried about this beforehand, especially as both axles are driven with a 'continuous' chain of 7 gears between them.  In practice it wasn't a problem (touch wood: not run in yet!).  The gear wheels have to be a simple push fit onto the axles (because of the 'splined' section referred to above): I didn't pay any particular attention to how this related to quartering or anything.  I did ensure that the two gears went back on the same axles (i.e front and rear), although that was probably unnecessary as I think they're the same.  I quartered the drivers by eye (they're 20 spoke so quite easy) and just dropped them back in.  I did make sure that I hadn't moved anything during the time that the drivers were removed, but again maybe not necessary.  It seems that there is sufficient 'slop', though this didn't affect running when it was OO, so hopefully it still won't now it's P4!

 

Edited: typo.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Tim Lewis

[Horsetan]

....Did you have to 'quarter' the gears on the axles to coincide with the quartering of the wheels.....

 

 

 

I was worried about this beforehand, especially as both axles are driven with a 'continuous' chain of 7 gears between them.  In practice it wasn't a problem (touch wood: not run in yet!).......

Gears don't need quartering as such. What matters is that the quartering on the drivers is correct, otherwise your rods will lock up.

[Wizard of the Moor]

Gears don't need quartering as such. What matters is that the quartering on the drivers is correct, otherwise your rods will lock up.

On this loco both axles have a drive gear that, as Tim says, are at each end of a chain of gears connected to the motor. Let's assume that the leading axle has the drive gear set such that it meshes perfectly with the final spur gear. Let's also assume that the driving wheels are quartered perfectly. Now, what happens if the drive gear on the trailing axle is rotated by half the tooth pitch relative to the drive gear on the leading axle?

 

I don't see this mentioned in the instruction sheet for this conversion, so either there's enough slop in the gear train for it not to matter, and I can well believe that this is the case, or it's implicit in the conversion procedure that one gets the gears meshed first and then tweaks the wheel quartering to suit.

[Horsetan]

...., what happens if the drive gear on the trailing axle is rotated by half the tooth pitch relative to the drive gear on the leading axle? .......it's implicit in the conversion procedure that one gets the gears meshed first and then tweaks the wheel quartering to suit.

I think you've answered your own question there.

[ArthurK]

Tim

 

The D11/2s did reach Newcastle. The up fish train from Aberdeen(?) came past Heaton some where around 9PM. It was worth waiting for as it occasionally had strangers from Scotland in charge. On one of these trains the train engine (Usually a V2 or Pacific) was double headed by a D11/2. Sorry I can't recall the name but I will have it down somewhere.

 

As an aside on dark evenings a back of about six of us used to rev up our cycle dynamos and train the lights onto the loco names/numbers. All Went well until we were warned off by a less than friendly policeman!

 

Happy days - or should that be nights!

 

ArthurK

[Tim Lewis]

Tim

 

The D11/2s did reach Newcastle. The up fish train from Aberdeen(?) came past Heaton some where around 9PM. It was worth waiting for as it occasionally had strangers from Scotland in charge. On one of these trains the train engine (Usually a V2 or Pacific) was double headed by a D11/2. Sorry I can't recall the name but I will have it down somewhere.

 

As an aside on dark evenings a back of about six of us used to rev up our cycle dynamos and train the lights onto the loco names/numbers. All Went well until we were warned off by a less than friendly policeman!

 

Happy days - or should that be nights!

 

ArthurK

Interesting - thanks for that Arthur. So, if I built a load of fish vans, I could legitimately have a double headed V2 and D11/2 on a diverted fish train, now there's a thought....maybe later!

 

I forgot to ask earlier, does anyone know where to find a decent drawing of a D11, sufficient to get the shape of the frames and firebox, so I can add cosmetic frames?   Isinglass don't seem to do one.

[Horsetan]

Interesting - thanks for that Arthur. So, if I built a load of fish vans, I could legitimately have a double headed V2 and D11/2 on a diverted fish train, now there's a thought....maybe later!

 

I forgot to ask earlier, does anyone know where to find a decent drawing of a D11, sufficient to get the shape of the frames and firebox, so I can add cosmetic frames?   Isinglass don't seem to do one.

There is one in E.M. Johnson's book, Great Central Locomotives, vol.2

[Tim Lewis]

There is one in E.M. Johnson's book, Great Central Locomotives, vol.2

Many thanks - I'll try and look that out.

[Horsetan]

It's pretty much the only D11 drawing available....