Sir Nigel Of Gresley Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 Hello all, I'm looking for colliery chaldron wagons in 4mm scale? I'm sure they have been produced in the past, but not sure by who? Can anyone help? As always, many thanks in advance. Grant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted September 4, 2010 Share Posted September 4, 2010 IIRC Chilton Ironworks produced a kit, although I doubt that its still available. They also produced the book 'Private Owner Wagons of the North East - volume one - The Chaldrons' written by John Elliott (published in '94). Full of usefull drawings for scratchbuilders. Hope that helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 3H might have been the company that did one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
industrial Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Drawings also at http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/10/chaldron_wagons_seaham.htm I think I saw the kits on the High Level Backwood stand at Leatherhead in 1996. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 The kits were definitely from Chilton Ironworks - there was a piece on constructing them in MRJ 149 - and there are some interesting photos of several undergoing the process of reconstruction on the Beamish Transport Blog. Adam 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 IIRC Chilton Ironworks produced a kit, although I doubt that its still available. They also produced the book 'Private Owner Wagons of the North East - volume one - The Chaldrons' written by John Elliott (published in '94). Full of usefull drawings for scratchbuilders. Hope that helps. I don't think there was a volume two, however instead they produced Elliott, John & Charlton, Derek (1994) Backworth An illustrated history of the mines and railways. Publ. Chilton Iron Works, Tyne & Wear, 116 pages ISBN 09523672 1 1 This has a few more photographs of the chaldrons, but also is good for illustrating some of the smaller hoppers which developed from them. As well as a great deal about where these wagon types worked. Sorry not easy to get this - the one on Abe books is more than £160 (not a typo!) Mines going straight into a cover! Several of the Chaldron wagon book are also on Abe books, rather more reasonable £11 - 12 plus postage. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 3H might have been the company that did one. Don't remember a chauldron from 3H but, at a swapmeet, I did once pick up a couple of kits by Eames. Not seen any before or since though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frisby Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 I don't think there was a volume two, however instead they produced Elliott, John & Charlton, Derek (1994) Backworth An illustrated history of the mines and railways. Publ. Chilton Iron Works, Tyne & Wear, 116 pages ISBN 09523672 1 1 This has a few more photographs of the chaldrons, but also is good for illustrating some of the smaller hoppers which developed from them. As well as a great deal about where these wagon types worked. Sorry not easy to get this - the one on Abe books is more than £160 (not a typo!) Mines going straight into a cover! Several of the Chaldron wagon book are also on Abe books, rather more reasonable £11 - 12 plus postage. Paul Bartlett One here - £16.00 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frisby Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 They also produced the book 'Private Owner Wagons of the North East - volume one - The Chaldrons' written by John Elliott (published in '94). Full of usefull drawings for scratchbuilders. Hope that helps. Here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Nigel Of Gresley Posted September 5, 2010 Author Share Posted September 5, 2010 Hello all, I know Chilton Iron Works did a kit in 4mmm, but it, (and they), seem to have disappeared around 2003. Someone must have the masters/original artwork for the etches somewhere? I don't fancy scratching building twenty of these vehicles, but if needs must, then needs must. Once again, many thanks for all the replies. Grant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rail-Online Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 I was chatting about what happened to the Chiltern Ironworks range only last year, in fact the owner simply lost interest and retains the entire range of wagon and loco kits. Apparently he is not interested in selling them on, nor re-releasing them. Bad news really as they were a useful range and you NEVER see them second hand. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted September 5, 2010 Share Posted September 5, 2010 Hello all, I know Chilton Iron Works did a kit in 4mmm, but it, (and they), seem to have disappeared around 2003. Someone must have the masters/original artwork for the etches somewhere? I don't fancy scratching building twenty of these vehicles, but if needs must, then needs must. Once again, many thanks for all the replies. Grant Do they have to be in brass? If you scratch built one as a kit of parts, in any material you feel happy working in, I would be prepared to look at them with a view to casting them in resin. Twenty is an ideal run for one set of moulds and if more were needed you've still got the masters. A quick thought is separate sides and ends and a one piece solebar/bufferbeam/chassis with separate 'w' iron/axleboxes. I'll be away from tomorrow until Friday but think about it and if you are interested get back to me. Phil Traxson Port Wynnstay Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Nigel Of Gresley Posted September 7, 2010 Author Share Posted September 7, 2010 Do they have to be in brass? If you scratch built one as a kit of parts, in any material you feel happy working in, I would be prepared to look at them with a view to casting them in resin. Twenty is an ideal run for one set of moulds and if more were needed you've still got the masters. A quick thought is separate sides and ends and a one piece solebar/bufferbeam/chassis with separate 'w' iron/axleboxes. I'll be away from tomorrow until Friday but think about it and if you are interested get back to me. Phil Traxson Port Wynnstay Models Hello Phil, whilst i'm not the best scratch-builder on the planet, I'll give considerable thought to you kind offer. Grant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turin 60 Posted September 7, 2010 Share Posted September 7, 2010 I can confirm that the late lamented EAMES did produce a kit for a chaldron wagon as a friend of mine has one in his collection, I've never seen another mind! John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 I was chatting about what happened to the Chiltern Ironworks range only last year, in fact the owner simply lost interest and retains the entire range of wagon and loco kits. Apparently he is not interested in selling them on, nor re-releasing them. Bad news really as they were a useful range and you NEVER see them second hand. Tony Bad news - seems downright selfish IMO I don't see any other reason. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
industrial Posted September 8, 2010 Share Posted September 8, 2010 They also produced the book 'Private Owner Wagons of the North East - volume one - The Chaldrons' written by John Elliott (published in '94). Full of usefull drawings for scratchbuilders. Hope that helps. Mine came today and is a mine of information sorry Bad news - seems downright selfish IMO I don't see any other reason. Well said Kenton there are too many black holes that good kits are disapering into and nether come out again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Nigel Of Gresley Posted September 14, 2010 Author Share Posted September 14, 2010 Industrial, How long will it be from making a master to having a kit availaible to buy? Grant Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poor Old Bruce Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 How long will it be from making a master to having a kit availaible to buy? In simplistic terms, if the masters are well made so that you can make moulds from them and the castings actually go together it's a bit longer than the rubber mould takes to cure and then the castings take to cure and pack. After that it's down to how long the post takes. The longest part is actually making the masters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
industrial Posted September 14, 2010 Share Posted September 14, 2010 Industrial, How long will it be from making a master to having a kit availaible to buy? Grant If it is a plastic no masters is needed as it will be done as a drawing then cut out of metal. Once the runners and ejection pins have ben done production can start. In the case it will need a master to be scratch built to make the master. The tooling for the plastic kits will be more but the kits will cost less and the moulding tools will last for years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 If it is a plastic no masters is needed as it will be done as a drawing then cut out of metal. Once the runners and ejection pins have ben done production can start. In the case it will need a master to be scratch built to make the master. The tooling for the plastic kits will be more but the kits will cost less and the moulding tools will last for years. It's not quite as simple as you make out to make tooling for injection moulding plastic, and for low volume sales, which the chaldron will be, will almost certainly be uneconomic. Just consider the quote for a wagon wheel centre to fit an available rim, which I needed, was over £300 and go from there, patternmaking is not cheap in any medium. Just think how long it takes to research and scratchbuild one side, one end and the chassis of a basic wagon, which is what is needed for a simple wagon kit, and then multiply that by around £15 per hour and you will have a rough idea of the cost. Remember you are paying for the skill of the patternmaker and the cost of the machines he is using, for simple plasticard masters this will only be a rule, square, knife and glue plus the research and ability to read(and probably make) and work to a drawing, still not cheap, but not as expensive as the thousands invested in machine tools for making injection moulding tools. My offer to look at resin casting the kits still stands, but I will need some one to provide the patterns as I no longer have the time to do this. I think it would be best if the patternmaker and I met so that what he made was compatible with my production methods. Phil Traxson Port Wynnstay Models Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Hadyn Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 I have a spare Chaldron book and a spare Backworth book as a result of some sorting out last night. £10 for the Chaldron and £15 for Backworth including post if anyone's interested. PM as ever Cheers Anthony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 Remember you are paying for the skill of the patternmaker and the cost of the machines he is using, for simple plasticard masters this will only be a rule, square, knife and glue plus the research and ability to read(and probably make) and work to a drawing, still not cheap, but not as expensive as the thousands invested in machine tools for making injection moulding tools. Please excuse the ignorance of the subject evidently displayed by this question: Is it not possible to use "modern" laser cutting techniques in pattern making and would this not only be more accurate taken from a good CAD drawing but also possibly cheaper? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 Please excuse the ignorance of the subject evidently displayed by this question: Is it not possible to use "modern" laser cutting techniques in pattern making and would this not only be more accurate taken from a good CAD drawing but also possibly cheaper? Very accurate but again not cheap due to the cost of the machinery in the first place. Well worth investigating though. Phil Traxson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 not cheap due to the cost of the machinery in the first place. Ah, but I wasn't proposing that the "pattern maker" or designer should invest in the laser equipment rather that the services of someone with the equipment could be used. For someone only producing a small range of models the equipment would be really expensive by comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted September 15, 2010 Share Posted September 15, 2010 Ah, but I wasn't proposing that the "pattern maker" or designer should invest in the laser equipment rather that the services of someone with the equipment could be used. For someone only producing a small range of models the equipment would be really expensive by comparison. I was thinking along the same lines, even that ain't cheap though! Phil T. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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