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MK1 dinnning cars in coach formations


locoshed
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I`m trying to model some real MK1 coach formations late 50s but I`m not sure what type of coach is meant by (Dinning car) from the following formation all MK1 coaches

 

 

BRADFORD TO PAIGNTON

 

BSK

SK

SK

SO

Dinning car

CK

CK

SK

SK

BSK

 

PAIGNTON - BRADFORD

 

BSK

SK

SK

CK

CK

Dinning car

SO

SK

SK

BSK

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There's a fair chance that the SOs marshalled next to the Dining Cars are being used as Catering vehicles. The second wave of Mk.1 catering vehicles were built in the late '50/early '60s so there's also the distinct possibilty that the Kitchen/Dining cars are pre-BR at this time.

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as Bernard says, in the late 50s it is still quite likely that the catering vehicles would be pre nationalisation types.

If the stock on these services was provided by the western region then they would most likely be Collet types. Even some of the WR crack services such as the Cornish Riviera were still running with Collet catering vehicles as late as 1960.

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The Devonian would have been one of the Western Region's chocolate and cream rakes from about 1959 to 1961. I asked about the consist on Robert Carroll's B.R Coaching Stock forum a couple of years ago for one of the local club members - one year had a maroon Eastern Region rake alternating with the Western chocolate and cream one, the next year used chocolate and cream rakes on both the trains needed each day.

 

The Eastern and Western Regions both used the then new 1900 series buffets for catering, as made by Bachmann.

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I`m trying to model some real MK1 coach formations late 50s but I`m not sure what type of coach is meant by (Dinning car) from the following formation all MK1 coaches.

 

According to Parkin the Western had 5 sets of Mk1 RF + TO (later SO) built in 1952 so if you're sure it's an all Mk1 set than that is a possibility. The SO were marked "restaurant car" as they were there for that purpose.

 

The 5 RF's W301-5 only lasted from 1952-1962. The 1951 built SO's (also called RSO) were in the series 1000-1013 and had gone by 1976

 

Andy MAy

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The winter 1958-59 list currently on the B.R Coaching stock forum states Mk1 stock for all the vehicles apart from the dining car which is "Gangway adapter fitted vehicle", I assume that would mean a pre-nationalisation coach. The dining car alternates between a Western Region or London Midland vehicle, the rest of the train is London Midland based stock.

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thanks again I`ve seen the records and the coaches are all shown as MK1 VV not $ or GWR (choc/cream) I`ve also seen a photo of the devonian in Birmingham-Derby: Portrait of a Famous Route again all MK1 anyway there are 2 choices from Bachmann the RU or RFO so I`ll have to pick one of these

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thanks again I`ve seen the records and the coaches are all shown as MK1 VV not $ or GWR (choc/cream) I`ve also seen a photo of the devonian in Birmingham-Derby: Portrait of a Famous Route again all MK1 anyway there are 2 choices from Bachmann the RU or RFO so I`ll have to pick one of these

 

Out of interest locoshed what records were they and covering what timetable?

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thanks again I`ve seen the records and the coaches are all shown as MK1 VV not $ or GWR (choc/cream) I`ve also seen a photo of the devonian in Birmingham-Derby: Portrait of a Famous Route again all MK1 anyway there are 2 choices from Bachmann the RU or RFO so I`ll have to pick one of these

 

The RFO won't be of much use as it has seating only and no kitchen.

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The Devonian went through lots of changes in the late 1950s and early 1960s. A good colour photo of the train in 1958 appears on the front cover of the Ian Allan album Western Steam in Colour 2. The diner is a Mark I diag 16 kitchen first in crimson/cream, one of 5 built in 1952. In 1956-7, the train still included an LMS dining car, as shown here.

 

Here is a close-up of the diner:

45659_BristolTM_Devonian_1-4-57crop-s.jpg

I think it is an LMS Period II restaurant composite, as modelled by Dapol/Hornby. The vehicle to the left does not appear to have restaurant branding and may be an early open second without the middle door.

 

Here is my crimson/cream Diag 16 RF. It appeared in Model Rail January 2008. Built by Brian Kirby by converting a Bachmann RU with etched sides made by Bob-65B.

 

Railway Observer 1958 p358 noted maroon RU W1918 in the Devonian.

 

Railway Observer 1960 p408 noted that following the WR takeover of the Devonian stock, barring maroon diners M229M and W9607W, both sets were in chocolate/cream.

 

Railway Observer 1961 p94 noted that from January the Bradford-based train had a WR semi-dining SO (W3984) and an ER RF (in fact Stanier 12-wheeler E43M with prefix changed).

 

Railway Observer 1961 p326 noted that the Devonian at last had a pair of ER standard dining vehicles in the Bradford-based set (RU E1926 and TSO E4344) instead of the LMS RF E43M and WR SO.

 

Railway Observer 1961 p399 noted that the Bradford-based Devonian set had had RU E1926 replaced by RB E1668; the Paignton-based set contained RB W1728. Those two cars and their open seconds were maroon, but the rest of the winter load of nine vehicles was chocolate and cream in both sets.

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'Operation Midland' By P Webb & W S Beckett; Express Publishing gives on page 76 the following formation for the Summer 1955 timetable:

09.15 'Devonian' Paignton - Bradford

1 BTK BR
2 TK BR
3 CK BR
4 RC LMS
5 TO BR
6 BTK BR
7 BTK BR
8 CK BR
9 TK BR
10 TK BR
11 BTK BR

The next working for the complete set of coaches was the 09.25 Bradford - Bristol next day. It appears that Coaches 1 to 6 worked up from Plymouth with Coaches 7 to 11 originating from Paignton, the two trains being combined at Newton Abbot.

Edited by Leander
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The formation changed a lot but I`ve settled for the following formation for 1958 -1959 using the RU which is available from Bachmann at the moment, just need to to get some DEVONIAN labels precision labels don`t do them :(

 

DEVONIAN

BRADFORD TO PAIGNTON MK1 LMR

 

BSK

SK

SK

SO

RU W

CK

CK

SK

SK

BSK

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  • 4 years later...

The 'dining' cars used on BR Western Region in the 1950s were 'rebuilt' GWR catering stock. Various 'dining pairs' appear to have been assigned to specific named trains, such as the Red Dragon and the Capitals United Express.
 
For further information, take a look at the following rmweb threads:

The Mk1 based RUs (Restaurant Unclassifieds) didn't come on the scene until around 1960.

 

Rick

Edited by 70021 Morning Star
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The 'dining' cars used on BR Western Region in the 1950s were 'rebuilt' GWR catering stock. Various 'dining pairs' appear to have been assigned to specific named trains, such as the Red Dragon and the Capitals United Express.

 

For further information, take a look at the following rmweb threads:

The Mk1 based RUs (Restaurant Unclassifieds) didn't come on the scene until around 1960.

 

Rick

The first production batch of Mark I RUs entered service from 1957 with the early deliveries being in chocolate and cream livery.  The Torbay Express was one of the first recipients.

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  • 1 year later...

Sorry to revive this old thread for a fairly basic question, but I've been trying to find out about MK1 formations, and can find little reference as to how a RFO would fit into a train. I know it has know catering facilities, just seating/tables, so how would it have fitted in. I am modelling mid 50s, midland region.

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The RFOs went with RSOs and full kitchen cars and generally worked as triplets.  To have one vehicle devoted to cooking meant a high demand for meals so the triplets ended up on peak hour business trains.  There were not that many trains that called for such provision.  Someone who knows all about the LMR can now come along and tell us which trains met this demanding specification.  Please ...

 

Chris

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The Royal Scot in the mid-1950s ran with Mark I RTO-RK-RFO for dining, although the RK was sometimes an LMS one.

 

 

Great photos.    Did you have to book a seat in the RTO or RFO or was it first come first served?   Did they check your ticket to make sure that you were in the correct class?

 

Thanks,

Bill

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Great photos.    Did you have to book a seat in the RTO or RFO or was it first come first served?   

A dining car steward would visit all the compartments on the train and take bookings for lunch (or whatever meal was being served). From that, the class that the prospective diner was occupying would be known. Therefore there was no need for a ticket check.

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Not familiar with LMR practice but I doubt it differed significantly from WR under BR.  

 

Almost any longer-distance train would convey a restaurant car.  Many secondary routes had buffet cars in the trains.  Premium trains where demand for meals was likely to be high would convey a kitchen car (RKB) and an RFO / RSO coupled together.  There were no seats in the RKB which was entirely devoted to cooking meals.  The RFO was basically an open first laid up for dining and not available for other passengers.

 

It was normal for the steward to come through the train selling teas and coffees at intervals silver-service style.  That was quite a challenge in Mk1s with sliding end and compartment doors.  The skills required were among those I learned but seldom used when I joined the railway many years ago.  The steward would also come through taking bookings for meals and providing passengers with a time to come along to the restaurant.  That way they managed the seating and often managed two sittings on a long trip.  Once all seats had been assigned anyone else might have to take a chance on a no-show or could always use the buffet car.

 

Some long-distance rakes had both buffet and restaurant cars coupled together with the former serving light refreshments to second class passengers and the latter preparing full meals for the first class section and any second class passengers who could be fitted in once first class demand had been established.  As late as the HST's early days there could be two catering vehicles in the set; some of the ECML ones had both buffet and kitchen cars as did the early WR ones until such lavish provision was felt to be excessive and too costly.

 

Of interest also the SR had a similar operation which transferred from steam-hauled stock on the Bournemouth line to the electric 4Rep units in 1967/8.  They were the only EMU sets to have had a restaurant car (as opposed to buffet, griddle or other lesser provision) which served plated meals to passengers in the adjacent open second motor coach half (all on some busy trips) of which was set with linen-covered tables for diners only.

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Did they check your ticket to make sure that you were in the correct class?

 

Dining cars were sometimes considered unclassified as evidenced by the code given to some of RUO (Restaurant Unclassified Open) and were open to all.   There has probably been no hard-and-fast rule over the years.  However full dining has often been considered a premium service / product and offered only to first class passengers or giving them priority.  The chief steward would sometimes check tickets though that wasn't always necessary.  The guard / inspector / conductor would do that anyway in many cases.   When the steward had done the rounds before service he (or she but usually he) would know whether the person was seated in first or second class.  Some trains have at times offered at-seat dining to first class passengers with a seat reserved in a laid-up first open / RFO for those wishing to dine.  The cost of the meal was extra however.  There used to be a series of trains aimed at the business market from regional cities to London in the morning and home each evening marketed under the "Executive" brand such as "Bradford Executive" upon which there was a greater than normal proportion of first class accommodation and dining was offered at most of those seats.  These in turn had replaced Pullman services with silver service to all (or all the Pullman in mixed trains) seats.

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So the Bachmann RFO is actually fairly useless if you wont to run prototypical trains using ready to run stock, as Bachmann don't produce any of the other vehicles it would run with!

 

Did the RSO/RTO differ much from a standard SO though?

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