MK1 dinnning cars in coach formations

[Phil Bullock]

Beware of terminology here chaps! Most standard mk1 so's are TSOs and seat 64. SO seats 48. Without books in front of me would not want to comment on which SO or TSO worked with catering vehicles. BSO also used for catering eg in Cathedrals express.

 

Phil

[griffgriff]

Elbow room would be an issue in a TSO most annoying at meal times

[Phil Bullock]

And BSO !

 

Phil

[chrisf]

Beware of terminology here chaps! Most standard mk1 so's are TSOs and seat 64. SO seats 48. Without books in front of me would not want to comment on which SO or TSO worked with catering vehicles. BSO also used for catering eg in Cathedrals express.

 

Phil

 

I'm not aware that the Western used the code TSO, possibly because it had few if any 2+1 open seconds.  Some of its 2+2s were painted chocolate and cream and marshalled next to the RU to provide overflow dining accommodation if needed, this at a time when its allocation of 7 RSOs with loose chairs saw little use.  [Trivia time: one of the latter, W1012, had been converted to a cinema coach for the Westward TV exhibition train of 1961 and survives in preservation at Ruddington.]

 

Chris

[mark54]

The SO & TSO codes to denote 2+1 & 2+2 seating were only really used on the ER & NER up to 1967. The LMR just used SO with the number of seats in brackets i.e. SO(48) or SO(64). The WR & SR didn't have 2+1 second class. After 1967 the codes became more generally recognised across all regions.

[robertcwp]

To address some points in various posts:

 

RKB was a kitchen buffet not a full kitchen car. The latter was an RK. The RKB had a buffet counter at one end but no seats, the only passenger carrying type with that characteristic (RK being non-passenger).

 

RTO and RFO had loose chairs which is what distinguished them from open firsts and thirds.

 

The East Coast 'Executive' trains did not immediately replace the Pullmans. The two coexisted for several years and the 'Executive' titles were if I recall correctly applied to existing limited load trains.

 

The WR in particular used carriages with 2+2 seating for dining and there had been classless diners in GWR days.

[acourtrail]

Regarding dining cars (the ones with just seating), several types saw use depending on region and time period.

 

RFOs 1 - 10 and RSOs 1001 - 1013 were built in 1951 to run in the Festival of Britain MK1 sets.  There were more RSOs because some were for twin sets.  The sets usually ran as triples RFO - RK - RSO (these were found on all bar the Scottish Region) or twins RF - RSO (Western Region only, and , the RFs were the early ones with anthracite stoves).

 

The only genuine dining cars built after that were RSOs SC 1014 - 1017 and RUOs E 1018 - 1057, otherwise SOs/TSOs or FOs with fixed seating were used for dining.

 

The 48 seat MK1 SO (2+1 seating) was built new for the Midland Region only as were over half of the FOs, and, given that the Midland got no more dining cars but did get a lot of later RKs and RKBs, the FOs and SOs would have seen use as dining cars (bear in mind that if the train had FO - RKB - SO for catering, if the return working did not require full meal service, the RKB could be used for just a buffet service, and the FO and SO used as normal seating).

 

On the Western Region the normal MK1 catering sets used in most of their named trains circa 1960 were RU - TSO.  By the late 60s RB - FO pairs had began to take over with the 1951 RFOs and RSOs sometimes filling in for the FO (the 1951 RFs and early RKs had all gone by then due to their anthracite stoves).

[Bomag]

 

Some long-distance rakes had both buffet and restaurant cars coupled together with the former serving light refreshments to second class passengers and the latter preparing full meals for the first class section and any second class passengers who could be fitted in once first class demand had been established.  As late as the HST's early days there could be two catering vehicles in the set; some of the ECML ones had both buffet and kitchen cars as did the early WR ones until such lavish provision was felt to be excessive and too costly.

 

The ECML had two HST sets with two catering cars all the way to when they were replaced with Mk4s. In the early days of Mk4 operation there was also at least one set with two RFM and three FOs. During the weekend one PFM and one FO were regularly declassified.

[robertcwp]

To correct one point, the mention of Sc1014-7 reminded me that these were RSO but had fixed 2+1 seating so were effectively the same as the 48-seat SO built for the LMR, the only real difference being restaurant branding, which disappeared in the 1970s I believe.

[keefer]

didn't the WR also favour BSOs as additional dining accomodation?

i'm sure i've seen formation diagrams, possibly posted by robert, where the BSO is reserved for dining alongside an RF or similar.

 

Actually, i think i've seen in other diagrams where an otherwise ordinary TSO is shown as available for 'additonal dining'

[robertcwp]

didn't the WR also favour BSOs as additional dining accomodation?

i'm sure i've seen formation diagrams, possibly posted by robert, where the BSO is reserved for dining alongside an RF or similar.

 

Actually, i think i've seen in other diagrams where an otherwise ordinary TSO is shown as available for 'additonal dining'

The only dining BSO I can think of ran with an RB on the Cathedrals Express in the early 1960s. The WR only had 64-seat open seconds and used them regularly as diners or part-diners with an RU or RB.

[acourtrail]

The only dining BSO I can think of ran with an RB on the Cathedrals Express in the early 1960s. The WR only had 64-seat open seconds and used them regularly as diners or part-diners with an RU or RB.

 

That BSO was W9276.  It was I believe the only BSO to carry Chocolate & Cream, later became the first BSO(T) conversion, and, is now preserved at the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway.  Other BSOs have been painted Chocolate & Cream in preservation, but, 9276 is the only one where it is historically accurate.

[keefer]

thanks for that Robert and acourtrail, I must've remembered that example from posts on RMWeb not realising it was the only example.

[robertcwp]

BSO+RB in the Cathedrals Express:

 

7021_Cathedrals_1961 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[robertcwp]

That BSO was W9276.  It was I believe the only BSO to carry Chocolate & Cream, later became the first BSO(T) conversion, and, is now preserved at the Gloucestershire Warwickshire Railway.  Other BSOs have been painted Chocolate & Cream in preservation, but, 9276 is the only one where it is historically accurate.

The chocolate and cream one might have been W9272 rather than W9276 (or possibly both).

 

Edit to add close-up of number of BSO shown in image in previous posting:

BSO-Cathedrals-crop by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

Not clear even at 12,000 dpi.

Edited April 15, 2018 by robertcwp

[Taz]

I’m reviving this thread to ask a related question.

Does anyone know what formation the chocolate & cream MK1 RFO as modelled by Bachmann was used in.

I’m wondering if it is suitable for any of the named trains which worked to / from the South West circa 1960. 
I can’t see it referenced in any of the timetables I’ve looked at.

[chrisf]

According to Robert Carroll's list, which I have no cause to doubt, no Mk 1 RFOs carried chocolate and cream.  The four FOs that were thus liveried all had the centre door not found on the RFO.  Sorry!

 

Chris

[Taz]

Thanks Chris.

I guess the model goes in the donor pile then to be converted to something else

[chrisf]

FOs M3000-02 have the same bodyshell as the RFO.  Almost the same, but with a door cut into the centre seating bay, are E3003-06, Sc3007 and M3008-19.  The interior comprises fixed seats and tables rather than the loose ones of the RFO.

 

Out of curiosity I spent some time earlier trying to find a WR kitchen car working.  All I could find in the 1961 summer CWP was a kitchen car flanked by an open first and open second.  Very few trains had the demand for full meal service that only a kitchen car could satisfy.  One that appears to have done so was the 5.10 pm Sats excepted (7.10 pm Sats only) Paddington to Wolverhampton and 7.25 am Wolverhampton to Paddington.  One does wonder what it was about the Merchant Venturer, dep Paddington 11.15 am, which justified a full kitchen car back in 1951.

 

By the way, the photo of the Cathedrals Express earlier in the thread was taken at Acton West.  In the background is the land that used to be occupied by the North Ealing Allotments Association pending the building of a girls' school in the early 1960s.  Three of the allotments were tilled by my late father.  I was not much help, preferring to observe passing trains from the top of a heap of leaf mould.

 

Chris 

[robertcwp]

14 hours ago, chrisf said:

According to Robert Carroll's list, which I have no cause to doubt, no Mk 1 RFOs carried chocolate and cream.  The four FOs that were thus liveried all had the centre door not found on the RFO.  Sorry!

 

Chris

Perhaps to be more precise, I have found no evidence that any RFO carried chocolate and cream.