Trip cock fitted Jintys

[fresnel]

A number of class 3F 0-6-0T locos were fitted with trip cocks to work the Brent - West Kensington and Brent - High Street Kensington freight trains over London Transport lines.

I think all these locos were based at Willesden.

I have the 1950 Jinty allocation for Willesden 1A:

47342; 47412; 47475; 47520; 47676; 47361; 47430; 47491; 47531; 47380; 47474; 47505 and 47675

Which of the above locos were fitted with trip cocks?

There's a rather good shot of 47432 in 1965 (then allocated to Willesden) working a Brent - West Kensington freight on the approach to Turnham Green LT on page 59 of The Midland around London by Kevin McCormack. The trip cock apparatus can clearly be seen.

[roythebus]

There's been a few threads about this on the District Dave underground site, but this more concerns tripcock fitted diesels. the chap that WOULD have known is the late Alec Swain, former chairman of the MRC and shedmaster at Willesden in the late 50's and early 60's.

 

Somewhere there's a website of a list of his photos, and he's written a few books.

[Dampflok]

Can't really help I'm afraid - although I visited Willesden shed quite a bit in the 'sixties, the only time I got a shot of a Jinty was in October 1963. This was 47341 and it does not appear to be fitted with a trip cock...

 

 

So you can discount that one!

 

Cheers, Geoff

[fresnel]

Many thanks for the replies.

 

Here's what LMS locomotive profile No. 14 has to say:

 

"In order to comply with the signalling requirements of the widened lines, it was ordered that equipment known as 'automatic vacuum brake trip gear' be fitted to some of the Class working over Metropolitan Railway tracks. It consisted of a lever that tripped a valve and applied the brakes if it came into contact with trackside installations that would be set when signals were at danger and first featured on Midland Railway locomotives in November 1912. The levers projected sideways between the intermediate and trailing wheels with longer crankpins being fitted so that the hind coupling rods would clear them. The work was carried out to Job No. 5228 issued in August 1940 that called for six LMS engines to be altered but we have been unable to identify any of them. It was noted on the job instruction that the work would be paid for by the London Passenger Transport Board."

 

Here is a list of Jintys that I have recently identified as being fitted with trip gear:

 

47226, 47248, 47251, 47432, 47433, 47434, 47435.

 

All have been identified from photographs of these locos working the Brent - Kensington coal trains over LT metals between 1955 and 1965.

 

Back to my original question about the allocation of trip cock fitted Jintys in 1950 - I think I was wrong in assuming that these locos were all allocated to Willesden. All the locos that I have identified, apart from 47432, were allocated to Cricklewood 14A in 1950.

 

Would it be erroneous to call both the LMS standard 3F tanks and the former Midland 2441 class locos Jintys?

 

fresnel

[roythebus]

The person who could possibly have answered this question is the late Alec Swain. Maybe a browse through his photo collection and any stuff he may have written would reveal more details.

 

Alec was shedmaster at 1A in the early 60's, later progressing to Board level. He was also chairman of The Model Railway Club. He was a wealth of information, and his position at 1A meant he could "detain" interesting locos for photography.

 

you could also try the LT Museum photo collection.

[fresnel]

Thank you, Roythebus. The Swain list includes a photo of 47432 in 1965.

It was in fact your reference to Alec Swain that led me somehow to the J J Smith photographic collection, which, featuring many shots of 0-6-0T 3F tanks running on LT metals, helped me compile the list of trip cock fitted Jintys as above.

I am fairly confident my list is comprehensive since LMS Locomotive Profiles No.14 indicates that only six of these engines were fitted with trip gear. My list includes seven locos, but I believe that 47432 would have been a later replacement (the original job of adding trip gear being carried out August 1940) since 47251 was withdrawn in August 1958 and, according to the 1950 allocations lists, 47432 was a Sheffield Grimesthorpe engine (not much use for trip gear there). The 1959 Cricklewood allocation shows 47432 along with the other locos from my list.

[roythebus]

You'll find that "most" trip cock fitted steam locos ran with the trip cock isolated "unofficially". because goods trains then were unfitted, if the driver ran by (now known as a SPAD) and the trip cock was cut in, there was a real risk of the train derailing and the guard being injured with the loco brake being suddenly fully applied!

[Horsetan]

.....Would it be erroneous to call both the LMS standard 3F tanks and the former Midland 2441 class locos Jintys?

 

Well, the Domestic Duck book refers to the standard tanks as "Jockos", so I'm a bit confused as to which nickname came first.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

You'll find that "most" trip cock fitted steam locos ran with the trip cock isolated "unofficially". because goods trains then were unfitted, if the driver ran by (now known as a SPAD) and the trip cock was cut in, there was a real risk of the train derailing and the guard being injured with the loco brake being suddenly fully applied!

Peter Townend as shedmaster at 34A with his N2s so equipped similarly records in his 'Top Shed' that his drivers were not inclined to open the cock to the brake pipe which would have made the device operational, as in the event of a trip occurring they would have to get down among the live rails to reset. His staff found out that the two gauges owned by London Transport to test the apparatus were inconsistent with each other; and concludes 'more trouble than it was worth'.

[fresnel]

You'll find that "most" trip cock fitted steam locos ran with the trip cock isolated "unofficially". because goods trains then were unfitted, if the driver ran by (now known as a SPAD) and the trip cock was cut in, there was a real risk of the train derailing and the guard being injured with the loco brake being suddenly fully applied!

Were there actually ever any incidents where a freight train was derailed through being tripped?

[L49]

 

Well, the Domestic Duck book refers to the standard tanks as "Jockos", so I'm a bit confused as to which nickname came first.

 

AFAIK 'Jocko' is the original nickname which refers to all the 3F tanks. The term 'Jinty' was coined by spotters later on, and was not usually used by staff. I assume that the condensing 3Fs from Cricklewood were tripcock fitted, although I don't know whether they ever actually strayed onto District or Metropolitan metals.

[Poor Old Bruce]

 

Well, the Domestic Duck book refers to the standard tanks as "Jockos", so I'm a bit confused as to which nickname came first.

 

AFAIK 'Jocko' is the original nickname which refers to all the 3F tanks. The term 'Jinty' was coined by spotters later on, and was not usually used by staff. I assume that the condensing 3Fs from Cricklewood were tripcock fitted, although I don't know whether they ever actually strayed onto District or Metropolitan metals.

As has been said before, 'Jocko' is synonymous with 'shunter' (the loco, not the man) irrespective of loco type.

 

One of the earlier post listed the Midland engines (from the range 47200-59) so fitted.