First all blue BR diesels

[Downendian]

Hi Russ

Thanks for your PM. OK this may take a while but I'll post up the Green-Blue transition according to the Inter City Railway society.

Sept 1975 From Green to Blue

06 001; 24 057; 25 053/202/238/248/260; 37 186/214/223/228/229/231/256; 47 322/324.

Oct 1975 Green to Blue

08 551/556/557/635/935, 20 028; 24 081; 37 234/238, 40 017/101/137/139/161/181/193, 47 135/147/188/264. (edit 47 135)

 

Nov 1975 List of locos still in Green

01 001/2; 03 128/134/382; 06 008; 08 008/010/015/022-024/036/045/048-052/056/057/060/061/063-066/069/081/093-096/099/105-107/135/138/141/154/157/159/160/161/165/166/168/172/174/176/180/185/186/187/206/207/212/223-228/237-239/241/252/254-256/259-261/263/266/270/271/277/287/290/295/306/309/310/317/357/358/365/369/370/372/380/389/391/405/407/409/410/416/417/432/440/452/459/476/493-497/503/504/506/508-510/515/516/522/523/528-530/548/552/554/566/622/634/648/653/669/678-679/682/684/688/689/691/702/705/706/733/740/743/748/752/767/768/776/777/781/784/790/800/803/812/815-817/821/823/828/829/833/849/867/872/873/880/886/887/890/900/902-903/907/908/917/918/921/923/925/927/934/938/956-958; 09 006/007/025; 13 002; 20 014-017/020-023/025/026/045/047/054/057/064/075/107/128-133/137/138/140/141/144-147/149-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/175/228; 24 035/090/092/136; 25 040/043/101/102/198/251/252/261/294; 37 106/136/176/207/226/233/244/285/289; 40 039/052/106/128/135-136/145/169/171/176/183; 47 052/091/094/131/136-138/146/195/201/203/256/262/263/267/283/322/324/333/340/341/347/353/356-358/364-369

 

Dec 1975 Green to Blue

08 254/370/380/705/873/903; 09 006/007; 25 252/294; 37 106/233; 40 176, 47 091/137/201

 

Jan 1976 Green to Blue

08 015/048/185/277/369/410/497/622/648/803/833/867; 20 054, 24 035; 25 040/101/251/261; 37 226; 40 135; 47 052/131/324/333

 

Feb 1976 Green to Blue

08 081; 40 052

 

Later entries to come !!! Enjoy Russ at least

 

Neil

[Russell Saxton]

Sorry to do it to you Neil after your hard work but it's full of errors (by ICRS not you). Got to shoot off so will look in depth later but straight away I can say that 09006/7, 37106, 40161 and 40193 were never green as TOPS.

 

393 went blue in 1969 to my certain knowledge and I have photos of 6806 and 361 in blue to hand.

 

I think they have recycled the railway Observer listings which in 1975 were wildly inaccurate.

 

Sorry!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Russ

Thanks for your PM. OK this may take a while but I'll post up the Green-Blue transition according to the Inter City Railway society.

Sept 1975 From Green to Blue

06 001; 24 057; 25 053/202/238/248/260; 37 186/214/223/228/229/231/256; 47 322/324.

Oct 1975 Green to Blue

08 551/556/557/635/935, 20 028; 24 081; 37 234/238, 40 017/101/137/139/161/181/193, 47 125/147/188/264.

 

Nov 1975 List of locos still in Green

01 001/2; 03 128/134/382; 06 008; 08 008/010/015/022-024/036/045/048-052/056/057/060/061/063-066/069/081/093-096/099/105-107/135/138/141/154/157/159/160/161/165/166/168/172/174/176/180/185/186/187/206/207/212/223-228/237-239/241/252/254-256/259-261/263/266/270/271/277/287/290/295/306/309/310/317/357/358/365/369/370/372/380/389/391/405/407/409/410/416/417/432/440/452/459/476/493-497/503/504/506/508-510/515/516/522/523/528-530/548/552/554/566/622/634/648/653/669/678-679/682/684/688/689/691/702/705/706/733/740/743/748/752/767/768/776/777/781/784/790/800/803/812/815-817/821/823/828/829/833/849/867/872/873/880/886/887/890/900/902-903/907/908/917/918/921/923/925/927/934/938/956-958; 09 006/007/025; 13 002; 20 014-017/020-023/025/026/045/047/054/057/064/075/107/128-133/137/138/140/141/144-147/149-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/175/228; 24 035/090/092/136; 25 040/043/101/102/198/251/252/261/294; 37 106/136/176/207/226/233/244/285/289; 40 039/052/106/128/135-136/145/169/171/176/183; 47 052/091/094/131/136-138/146/195/201/203/256/262/263/267/283/322/324/333/340/341/347/353/356-358/364-369

 

Dec 1975 Green to Blue

08 254/370/380/705/873/903; 09 006/007; 25 252/294; 37 106/233; 40 176, 47 091/137/201

 

Jan 1976 Green to Blue

08 015/048/185/277/369/410/497/622/648/803/833/867; 20 054, 24 035; 25 040/101/251/261; 37 226; 40 135; 47 052/131/324/333

 

Feb 1976 Green to Blue

08 081; 40 052

 

Later entries to come !!! Enjoy Russ at least

 

Neil

[Russell Saxton]

Just seen another, 06008 was never green as TOPS, only 001/010.

[Russell Saxton]

OK, got a few minutes now to look in detail.

 

List of green locos Nov 1975

 

01001/2 were actually black but we know what is intended here!

 

08015-a new one to me. It was green as 3022 in late 1973 but I have no record of it as green TOPS-it's possible.

 

08048-52-more new info. No evidence here at all other than green in 1972.

 

08058 is missing, still green in 1976.

 

08099-another new one to me. No evidence other than green 1973.

 

08106/7 more new ones, like 08015 was reported by RO in jan 1974 as green. No evidence otherwise.

 

08165/6/8 ditto.

 

08169/70 missing-both green 1976

 

08206/7 see 08165/6/8

 

08229/44/5 missing, green in 1976

 

08254/63 see 08165/6/8

 

08271-complete new on to me. No evidence.

 

08287-nothing other than green 1972

 

08307/31/2/5/6/55 all missing.

 

08380 I assume a typo for 388?

 

08408/12 missing

 

08432/40/52 see 08165/6/8

 

08494/9 missing

 

08515 possible as was green 9/6/73.

 

08530/48/52 another 08165/6/8

 

08531 missing-this was Liverpool st green station pilot celebrity!!!!!! How the hell did they miss this one?

 

08592 missing green in 1976

 

08648/53/69/78/9/84 08705/6/43/67/76/7 see 08165/6/8

 

08733 blue in 1968!

 

08827/34/81/3/4, 901/19/20 missing

 

08867/900 see 08165/6/8

 

09006/7 more from jam 74 RO. Possibles as I have a very dodgy shot of at least one.

 

20017-no evidence but possible

 

20054 blue in 1972 according to RO. Possible.

 

20064 repainted blue at crewe Nov 69

 

20107-blue in 1973

 

Missing 20174/7 both blue till 1978

 

25101/98-new to me. Possible.

 

37106 never green TOPS 37136 blue in 1969!

 

40128 repainted blue dec 1972.

 

47322/4 listed green to blue sept 75 then listed green nov 75?

 

Hmmmmm. The rest seems accurate but in all honesty given the multitude of errors listed I'd not trust it as far as a grand piano can be blown upstairs with a straw. I think theyve plundered the RO archives and repeated it as fact which happens all too often. They are missing too many well known locos in green TOPS to be sure of any accuracy.

 

However- it is possible that some of the green 08s listed may be kosher, just not reported before. Please keep posting this stuff up Neil as I am seriously interested in sifting the wheat from the chaff as it were.

 

Most interesting new stuff ive seen in some time.

[Russell Saxton]

Just seen two more 47341/68 both never green TOPS.

[MUTTLEY]

Sorry to do it to you Neil after your hard work but it's full of errors (by ICRS not you). Got to shoot off so will look in depth later but straight away I can say that 09006/7, 37106, 40161 and 40193 were never green as TOPS.

 

393 went blue in 1969 to my certain knowledge and I have photos of 6806 and 361 in blue to hand.

 

I think they have recycled the railway Observer listings which in 1975 were wildly inaccurate.

 

Sorry!

 

 

 

I'd also question 37186, 37226, 37228, 37256, 47147, 08106, 47136, 47263, 08380, 25101 and quite a few of the locos apparently remaining green in Nov 1975 look EXCEEDINGLY iffy to me. I'd need to dig deeper and spend a little more time on it than I have at the moment.

 

As Russ hinted, the ICRS had their own fair share of mistaken identities/misread numbers/out-and-out bullshine, as the RCTS did. I treat this list with suspicion...................

 

Cheers, Ron.

[Downendian]

Plus you guys have to factor in my and ICRS typos!

Will post more this evening, but stress it's ICRS info not mine, and in a 30 year time warp.

Photos of the suspects I guess are the best evidence.

Neil

[Downendian]

OK Now a revised April 1976 list which I mentioned earlier in the thread, some updates from May 1976 merged

01 001/2 (Black) 03 128/134/382; 08 008/010/022-024/036/043/045/049-052/056-058/060/062-066/069/083/092-096/099/105-107/135/138/141/154/157/159-161/165/166/169/170/172/174/176/180/183/186/187/206/207/212/223-228/237-239/241/243-245/247/248/252/255/256/259-261/263/266/268-270/271/287/290/295, 306/309/310/317/331/332/335/336/355/357/358/369/370/372/388/388/391, 401/405/407-409/412/416/417/432/440/453/459/476/493-497/499, 503/504-510/512/514-518/521-523/528/529/530/531/548/552/554/584, 620/631/634/653/669/673/678/679/682/684/688/689/691/700/702/734/740/742-743/748/752/767/768/776/777/784/790/800/806/810-812/814-816/821/823/827-829/849/872/880-884/886/887/890/900-902/907/908/917-921/923/926/927/934/938/956-958; 09 025; 13 002; 20 014-017/020/022/023/025/026/045/047/057/064/075/107/128-133/137/138/140/141/144-147/149-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/175/177/228; 24 090/092/136; 25 043/102/198, 37 136/176/207/244/285/289; 40 106/128/136/145/169/171/183; 47 136/138/195/256/262/263/322/341/347/353/356-358/364-369; PWM 650/652-654.

I think I understand the large number of omissions from the Nov 1975 list - the main list was published in November with an update in December - the same happened in April/May 1976 - I've merged the information above. Please bear in mind that the ICRS newsletters were at least 2 months out of date - for example reallocations/withdrawals in the May 1976 newsletter were from 20th March.

 

May 1976 Green to Blue

08 008/024/045/049-052/092/095/099/105-107/138/154/165/166/174/180/183/186/187/206/207/241/256/259/263/271/287/307/209/317/416/417/432/ 440/453/476/493/495/496/515/530/552/554/653/669/678/679/682/684/688/689/691/702/734/743/752/767/776/777/784/790/800/812/823/872/880/ 886/900/916/917/926; 20 015/017/022/057/064/107/128/137/138/174; 37 136/176/207/285; 47 138/357; PWM 650/4

[Russell Saxton]

The April 76 list looks much more accurate at a cursory glance. Still lists non green TOPS 37136 and 40128 but without a full check its a lot better than the other one. Im going to research some of the 08s and 25198 as it is perfectly possible they were green.

 

This is the trouble with rail history, supposedly respected sources plunder dodgy gen and it gets taken as fact. Ive lost count of the times Ive read that 40161 was green and here I sit looking at a dirty great picture of in blue as 361 circa 1971.

 

Keep posting this up please Neil, it will unearth all sorts of things.

 

 

[Pennine MC]

As a personal aside I find the listing of onetime Dairycoates denizen 37136/6836 particularly incredible, as it was actually one of the first blue 37s with the arrows on the cabs

[Russell Saxton]

As a personal aside I find the listing of onetime Dairycoates denizen 37136/6836 particularly incredible, as it was actually one of the first blue 37s with the arrows on the cabs

 

 

Ahah! This is precisely the sort of thing I hoped this would throw up.

 

6836 was blue as early as Feb 1969 but a photo I have shows it in standard (and fairly ex works) blue dated 16 feb 69. In the photo also is 6835 which DOES have the arrows on the cab. Could you be mistaken?

 

It is possible that 6836 could have been repainted blue some time before this in mid 1967 onwards but that would mean it would have had two full repaints in a little over a year. And few 37s were in the early blue livery at all. It may also mean the date is wrong on the shot.

 

More info! Do you have proof it was early blue in the form of a photo?

 

Either way it wasnt green in 1976.

[winterbournecm]

I think 56036 was the first large logo locomotive, but must have been rail blue from new 1977 ish. I think it appeared in lage logo about 1980, remember seeing it on a Modern Railways cover. 50023 was about 1981 into large logo, the first 50.

[Pennine MC]

6836 was blue as early as Feb 1969 but a photo I have shows it in standard (and fairly ex works) blue dated 16 feb 69. In the photo also is 6835 which DOES have the arrows on the cab. Could you be mistaken?

I could and I am - sorry Russ I remember seeing it in my early spotting days but before Dairycoates lost its allocation, and I think I have a very poor photo of it, but I was confusing it with '35 as you say. Still, it must have been one of the earliest in 'standard' blue

[Russell Saxton]

I think 56036 was the first large logo locomotive, but must have been rail blue from new 1977 ish. I think it appeared in lage logo about 1980, remember seeing it on a Modern Railways cover. 50023 was about 1981 into large logo, the first 50.

 

 

It was new in jan 1978 and was in standard rail blue until about July 1978.

[Trevor H]

Ahah! This is precisely the sort of thing I hoped this would throw up.

 

6836 was blue as early as Feb 1969 but a photo I have shows it in standard (and fairly ex works) blue dated 16 feb 69. In the photo also is 6835 which DOES have the arrows on the cab. Could you be mistaken?

 

It is possible that 6836 could have been repainted blue some time before this in mid 1967 onwards but that would mean it would have had two full repaints in a little over a year. And few 37s were in the early blue livery at all. It may also mean the date is wrong on the shot.

 

More info! Do you have proof it was early blue in the form of a photo?

 

Either way it wasnt green in 1976.

 

 

I've seen the same photo and both 6835 & 6836 seem to be fairly clean, possibly both recently ex works, even though they carry the arrows in different places, 6836 also looks to have smaller arrows than later standard 37's.

 

Noteing both locos have not had D's applied and I believe 6835 carried GFY at some stage, I think the date of photo is probably about right. Would be interesting to know if 6836 received a repaint in such a short time, their certainly were others that did!

[Pennine MC]

I've seen the same photo and both 6835 & 6836 seem to be fairly clean, possibly both recently ex works, even though they carry the arrows in different places, 6836 also looks to have smaller arrows than later standard 37's.

 

Noteing both locos have not had D's applied and I believe 6835 carried GFY at some stage, I think the date of photo is probably about right. Would be interesting to know if 6836 received a repaint in such a short time, their certainly were others that did!

 

 

Now I've got my head round this, I'd say unlikely. 6835/36 were both Dairycoates ones but were notable in being obviously 'different' (the only other centre box one we had being the rebuilt 6791), and I'd have seen them both during 1968 (the year I started spotting), but most likely at some point after the 14s were withdrawn (1 April) as that was when the 37s fully took over the chalk trains to Wilmington. I dont remember seeing either in blue until I saw '36 in early '69 (further supporting late '68 or early '69 repaint dates); the most likely explanation seems that the pair of them just straddled the changeover from one style to the other - wasnt that generally in very late 1968?

 

 

Where's the photo BTW, it sounds like it might be around Hull?

[Downendian]

June 1976 List

 

01 001/002 (Black) 03 128/134/382; 08 010/022/023/036/043/056-058/060/062-066/069/083/093/094/096/135/141/157/159-161/169/170/172/176/212/223-228/237-239/243-245/247/248/252/255/260/261/266/268/269/270/290/295/306/310/331/332/335-336/355/357/358/369/370/372/388/389/391/401/405/407/408/409/412/459/494/497/499/503-510/512/514/516-518/521-523/528-529/531/548/584/631/634/673/700/740/742/743/748/806/810/811/814-816/821/827-829/849/881/883/884/887/890/901/902/907-908/918-921/923/927/934/938/956-958; 09 025; 13 002; 20 014/016/020/023/025/026/045/047/075/129-133/140/141/144-147/149-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/175/177/228; 24 090/092/136; 25 043/102/198; 37 244/289; 40 106/128/136/145/169/171/183; 47 136/195/256/262/263/322/341/347/353/356/364-369; PWM 652/3

 

November 1976

Green to Blue

08 505/518/634/821/829/901, 20 228, 25 102.

[Downendian]

January 1977 list

01 001/002; 08 010/023/043/056/058/061-066/069/070/072/076/223-225/227-229/237/244/245/248/260/261/295/306/307/310/331-332/335-336/355/357/358/369/370/372/388/389/391/401/405/407-409/412/459/494/497/499/503/504/506-512/514/516/517/522-523/528-529/531/742/768/810/811/827/828/881/883/890/902/907/908/916/918/919-921/923/927/934/956-958; 09 025; 13 002; 20 020/023/026/047/075/130-133/140/141/146/147/149-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/174/175/177, 40 106/136/171; 47 195/256/356/358/364-367/369

 

June 1977 list

03 382 (missing in January!); 08 010/023/043/062/063/065/066/157/170/176/224/225/227-229/245/248/295/306/307/310/331/332/335-336/355/357-358/369/388/389/391/401/405/407-409/412/459/494/497/499/503/504/507-512/514/516/517/522/523/528/529/531/811/828/881/890/902/907-908/916/919/921/923/927/934/958; 13 002; 20 020/023/026/047/075/131-133/140/141/146/147/150-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/174-175/177; 25 102, 40 106/136; 47 195/256/356/358/365-367/369

 

July 1977 Green to Blue

 

08 248/295/828, 25 102

 

September 1977 list (* denotes those currently or recently in works and maybe blue)

 

03 382; 08 010/023/043/056*/065/066/160*/170/172*/225*/229*/245*/306/310/331-332/336*/355/357/358*/372/388/389/391/401/405/407-408/409*/412/459/494/497/499/503/504/506/509/510*/511-512/516/522/523/528/529/531*/827/881/883/890*/902/907*-908/916/918*/923/927*/934/958*; 09 025; 13 002; 20 020/023/026/047/075/131/132*/133/140/141/146/147/149-154/155*/156/158*/162/164/167/169/170/174*/175/177; 40 106; 47 195*/256/356/358*/365/366/367*/369 PWM 653.

 

October 1977 Green to Blue

08 225/336/927; 09 025

 

 

[Downendian]

October 1978 list (dwindling now)

03 382; 08 170/295/332/388/389/391/401/405/407/409/412/499/503/506/508/509/511/516/522/528/529/531/919/923/934; 20 020/023/026/047/075/131-133/140/141/147/150-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/174/175; PWM 651 (first mention of this shunter in green)

 

There is only one entry in the 1978 newsletters referring to liveries, and my last newsletter is May 1979, and none of the 1979 entries contains any mention of livery changes

[Trevor H]

Now I've got my head round this, I'd say unlikely. 6835/36 were both Dairycoates ones but were notable in being obviously 'different' (the only other centre box one we had being the rebuilt 6791), and I'd have seen them both during 1968 (the year I started spotting), but most likely at some point after the 14s were withdrawn (1 April) as that was when the 37s fully took over the chalk trains to Wilmington. I dont remember seeing either in blue until I saw '36 in early '69 (further supporting late '68 or early '69 repaint dates); the most likely explanation seems that the pair of them just straddled the changeover from one style to the other - wasnt that generally in very late 1968?

 

 

Where's the photo BTW, it sounds like it might be around Hull?

 

 

The photo is at Dairycoates, I remember the website as it had a lot of stuff local to yourself, will try and find the link.

[Trevor H]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/johngreyturner/4092049969/sizes/o/

 

Well worth a look through the rest of the gallery as well, plenty of interesting stuff from the 60's onwards.

[Pennine MC]

http://www.flickr.co...049969/sizes/o/

 

Well worth a look through the rest of the gallery as well, plenty of interesting stuff from the 60's onwards.

 

Ooh, that's a bit gorgeous, especially as '35 has ploughs

 

Thanks Trevor, I do know the bloke's name - it must be one of those sites I've had in my 'must get round to having a proper look' list

[Russell Saxton]

Now I've got my head round this, I'd say unlikely. 6835/36 were both Dairycoates ones but were notable in being obviously 'different' (the only other centre box one we had being the rebuilt 6791), and I'd have seen them both during 1968 (the year I started spotting), but most likely at some point after the 14s were withdrawn (1 April) as that was when the 37s fully took over the chalk trains to Wilmington. I dont remember seeing either in blue until I saw '36 in early '69 (further supporting late '68 or early '69 repaint dates); the most likely explanation seems that the pair of them just straddled the changeover from one style to the other - wasnt that generally in very late 1968?

 

 

Where's the photo BTW, it sounds like it might be around Hull?

 

 

I have no evidence of 6835/6 ever being GFYE but 37s are my worst class for livery info so they could have been. The early blue/standard blue changeover was usually November 1968 but 31s were repainted in the old style into the 70s. 6835 could have done as the last and 6836 as the first respectively, yes. Both look in good nick.

 

Couple of interesting 37s in early blue were 6882/3. Crewe did a few in the early 70s and these two were turned out with cabside arrows and bodyside numbers like the old triang D6830. Both survived to TOPS like it!

[Russell Saxton]

January 1977 list

01 001/002; 08 010/023/043/056/058/061-066/069/070/072/076/223-225/227-229/237/244/245/248/260/261/295/306/307/310/331-332/335-336/355/357/358/369/370/372/388/389/391/401/405/407-409/412/459/494/497/499/503/504/506-512/514/516/517/522-523/528-529/531/742/768/810/811/827/828/881/883/890/902/907/908/916/918/919-921/923/927/934/956-958; 09 025; 13 002; 20 020/023/026/047/075/130-133/140/141/146/147/149-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/174/175/177, 40 106/136/171; 47 195/256/356/358/364-367/369

 

June 1977 list

03 382 (missing in January!); 08 010/023/043/062/063/065/066/157/170/176/224/225/227-229/245/248/295/306/307/310/331/332/335-336/355/357-358/369/388/389/391/401/405/407-409/412/459/494/497/499/503/504/507-512/514/516/517/522/523/528/529/531/811/828/881/890/902/907-908/916/919/921/923/927/934/958; 13 002; 20 020/023/026/047/075/131-133/140/141/146/147/150-156/158/162/164/165/167/169/170/174-175/177; 25 102, 40 106/136; 47 195/256/356/358/365-367/369

 

July 1977 Green to Blue

 

08 248/295/828, 25 102

 

September 1977 list (* denotes those currently or recently in works and maybe blue)

 

03 382; 08 010/023/043/056*/065/066/160*/170/172*/225*/229*/245*/306/310/331-332/336*/355/357/358*/372/388/389/391/401/405/407-408/409*/412/459/494/497/499/503/504/506/509/510*/511-512/516/522/523/528/529/531*/827/881/883/890*/902/907*-908/916/918*/923/927*/934/958*; 09 025; 13 002; 20 020/023/026/047/075/131/132*/133/140/141/146/147/149-154/155*/156/158*/162/164/167/169/170/174*/175/177; 40 106; 47 195*/256/356/358*/365/366/367*/369 PWM 653.

 

October 1977 Green to Blue

08 225/336/927; 09 025

 

 

 

 

This is much more accurate. 25102 had gone blue about a year previously and 40136 about the beginning of 77 but a quick scan seems to show this list is OK. I can confirm that 40128 was never ever green TOPS.

[keefer]

just to deviate back to 56 036 for a mo.

the need for a more 'imposing' livery for main-line locos came from BRB chairman, sir peter parker. the 'design panel' came up with the LL livery, seemingly after a number of alternatives had been prepared by the 'industrial design department' (same body, different name?) 56 036 was repainted at stratford, august 1978

 

info from 'british rail fleet survey 3, 2nd. ed.' (haresnape/ian allan), 1984