Hornby Clan

[Silver Sidelines]

19 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I cant think of any Britannia or Clan previously made by Hornby where the running board wasnt black, until this pair, only the Trix ones of the 1960’s had a green running plate..

 

Coincidently I have just unboxed 'ANZAC' R3643 and it too has an all green running board.  Hornby has some consistency - both my early NRM Oliver and the Oliver out of the 15 guinea special both had green running plates.  I have added a picture of the latter now backdated to 1960.  I was bothered about the green running plate - it may well get blackened.

 

Ex Hornby R3607 with added speedo drive and overhead warning plates

Edited November 30, 2021 by Silver Sidelines

[Ian Hargrave]

4 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

Coincidently I have just unboxed 'ANZAC' R3643 and it too has an all green running board.  Hornby has some consistency - both my early NRM Oliver and the Oliver out of the 15 guinea special both had green running plates.  I have added a picture of the latter now backdated to 1960.  I was bothered about the green running plate - it may well get blackened.

 

Ex Hornby R3607 with added speedo drive and overhead warning plates

By the time of the 15 guinea special BR was liberal in its use of green paint so it might possibly be correct for 70013 on the day.. 

[Silver Sidelines]

1 hour ago, Ian Hargrave said:

...........so it might possibly be correct for 70013 on the day.. 

 

But perhpas not in 1960?

 

Anyway a picture of another green footplate:

 

 

Hornby R3643 aka 70046 'ANZAC'

 

ANZAC also features buffers without a step which 'cctransuk' drew attention to further back up this thread as a positive for the new Clans.

 

Cheers Ray

Edited November 30, 2021 by Silver Sidelines

[adb968008]

12 hours ago, Ian Hargrave said:

By the time of the 15 guinea special BR was liberal in its use of green paint so it might possibly be correct for 70013 on the day.. 

R3865 70013 however has a 1950’s logo…

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/66901/R3865-Hornby-BR-Std-7MT-Britannia-Class-4-6-2-Steam-Locomotive

ive just checked r2565 70013 has a green running plate, and that was 2008, but R2562 70000 was black running plate… i think they were the same year too.

Later ones r3096 70004, and 70034/43/44 are all black.

 

so it seems they have a green fetish about 70013.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2021 by adb968008

[Les1952]

2 hours ago, Silver Sidelines said:

 

But perhpas not in 1960?

 

Anyway a picture of another green footplate:

 

 

Hornby R3643 aka 70046 'ANZAC'

 

ANZAC also features buffers without a step which 'cctransuk' drew attention to further back up this thread as a positive for the new Clans.

 

Cheers Ray

 

These pigeons need a cat.....

 

I've looked at the Peter Swinger book "BR Standard Pacifics", which contains a colour picture of every loco in the three classes.

 

DEFINITELY GREEN-  70023 in 1958, 70038 in 1967

 

PROBABLY GREEN (rivetted angle on bottom of deflector is green rather than the black of the deflector it is attached to) 70045 in 1957,  Significantly other locos have this angle iron painted black.

 

DEFINITELY BLACK - 70005 in 1959,  70000 after preservation in 1992

 

All other photos are too low angle or too filthy to tell.   

 

As a possible explanation for differences- how many different works painted Standard Pacifics over the years?

 

All the very best

Les

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by Les1952

[pH]

14 minutes ago, Les1952 said:

As a possible explanation for differences- how many different works painted Standard Pacifics over the years?

 

From this website discussing the Clans

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/6p5f-72000-72009-4-6-2-br-standard-clan/

“Maintenance was initially undertaken at Crewe Works, but responsibility was transferred to Cowlairs Works in the spring of 1958.”

 

[railroadbill]

9 hours ago, pH said:

 

From this website discussing the Clans

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/6p5f-72000-72009-4-6-2-br-standard-clan/

“Maintenance was initially undertaken at Crewe Works, but responsibility was transferred to Cowlairs Works in the spring of 1958.”

 

Interesting site, also with its link to the new build one progress details. The colour pictures show really filthy locos, so perhaps overall matt black would be the most authentic livery.....

[E100]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294594298993?hash=item4497304471:g:DCAAAOSwXbdhpiSE Nice looking example on ebay for those not sold on the recent releases. No affiliation to myself.

[robmcg]

On 01/12/2021 at 12:38, Les1952 said:

 

These pigeons need a cat.....

 

I've looked at the Peter Swinger book "BR Standard Pacifics", which contains a colour picture of every loco in the three classes.

 

DEFINITELY GREEN-  70023 in 1958, 70038 in 1967

 

PROBABLY GREEN (rivetted angle on bottom of deflector is green rather than the black of the deflector it is attached to) 70045 in 1957,  Significantly other locos have this angle iron painted black.

 

DEFINITELY BLACK - 70005 in 1959,  70000 after preservation in 1992

 

All other photos are too low angle or too filthy to tell.   

 

As a possible explanation for differences- how many different works painted Standard Pacifics over the years?

 

All the very best

Les

 

 

 

Amen to that.  

 

Such a stimulating discussion recently I have looked at pics of Clans with renewed interest, including clean ones in general service, and in 30 odd photos 10 above the running plate none look black, muddy mid-grey ash more common, and some look as if they have never been black. Pristine ex-works might have been for a few weeks.

 

With a few Brits being green top running plates, with variations in sandboxes, green or black, I think it's reasonable to have 72004 with green, and the firebox lower side on 72009 although greenish often looks grey.

 

In the many photos of Clans and Brits I have done I have never noticed the green top versions like 70046 'Anzac' and there was no comment at the time, So far as I know.

 

Just to put the matter to rest, here is a colour photo of 70045 'Lord Rowallan' and we know photos never lie.

 

 

with a Clan to remove all doubt on the subject.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 2, 2021 by robmcg
correction, addition

[pH]

Really rare picture that - a Holyhead Brit on the ‘Waverley’! 

[MikeParkin65]

On 30/11/2021 at 23:38, Les1952 said:

 

These pigeons need a cat.....

 

I've looked at the Peter Swinger book "BR Standard Pacifics", which contains a colour picture of every loco in the three classes.

 

DEFINITELY GREEN-  70023 in 1958, 70038 in 1967

 

PROBABLY GREEN (rivetted angle on bottom of deflector is green rather than the black of the deflector it is attached to) 70045 in 1957,  Significantly other locos have this angle iron painted black.

 

DEFINITELY BLACK - 70005 in 1959,  70000 after preservation in 1992

 

All other photos are too low angle or too filthy to tell.   

 

As a possible explanation for differences- how many different works painted Standard Pacifics over the years?

 

All the very best

Les

 

Was just considering buying that book last night - sounds useful. In this months Hornby Mag Mike Wild has added an update and says he has a reader whose father was a ‘Works Inspector’ at Crewe works. From his fathers  notes he is saying Crewe works painted the running boards of the BR Standard Pacific’s green. I’d like to see more corroborating evidence but this and your post are an interesting twist. 

Edited December 2, 2021 by MikeParkin65

[robmcg]

14 hours ago, pH said:

Really rare picture that - a Holyhead Brit on the ‘Waverley’! 

 

Ah, I was hoping nobody would notice that, an impossible event, but I'm too lazy to change the number...

 

Never trust a photo... 

Edited December 2, 2021 by robmcg
addition

[robmcg]

Just to add to the green debate and selection of readers' photos, here is my 72009 in natural room light, Canon camera. I await a TMC-weathered 72004 but post to NZ is variable.

 

[jonnyuk]

way out of era and i know nothing about the prototype but, wow its a gorgeous looking loco/model, full of power and purpose . Here is hoping they drop in price in the next 6 months, i maybe tempted to get one.

[Farang]

See the January Hornby Magazine p87 for "Clan" update. The green running plate was standard for Crewe-built Britannias and Clans painted green. I never saw a Clan but wouldn't mind a model of one. But parting with the best part of £200 is another matter.

[cctransuk]

3 hours ago, Farang said:

See the January Hornby Magazine p87 for "Clan" update. The green running plate was standard for Crewe-built Britannias and Clans painted green. I never saw a Clan but wouldn't mind a model of one. But parting with the best part of £200 is another matter.

 

So how does this statement square with photos of Crewe-built Standard Pacifics with black running plates, and with previous Hornby models of those prototypes?

 

I will believe that some Crewe-built Standard Pacifics had green running plates only when I have seen an unambiguous colour photo to prove the point.

 

CJI.

Edited December 3, 2021 by cctransuk

[adb968008]

On 30/11/2021 at 23:38, Les1952 said:

 

These pigeons need a cat.....

 

I've looked at the Peter Swinger book "BR Standard Pacifics", which contains a colour picture of every loco in the three classes.

 

I love it.

 

1 hour ago, cctransuk said:

I will believe that some Crewe-built Standard Pacifics had green running plates only when I have seen an unambiguous colour photo to prove the point.

I just spent £3.49 on the above book, BR Standards in colour are always great viewing and on December 10th i’ll have a book for less than the price of a wagon.

[MikeParkin65]

On 30/11/2021 at 23:38, Les1952 said:

 

These pigeons need a cat.....

 

I've looked at the Peter Swinger book "BR Standard Pacifics", which contains a colour picture of every loco in the three classes.

 

DEFINITELY GREEN-  70023 in 1958, 70038 in 1967

 

PROBABLY GREEN (rivetted angle on bottom of deflector is green rather than the black of the deflector it is attached to) 70045 in 1957,  Significantly other locos have this angle iron painted black.

 

DEFINITELY BLACK - 70005 in 1959,  70000 after preservation in 1992

 

All other photos are too low angle or too filthy to tell.   

 

As a possible explanation for differences- how many different works painted Standard Pacifics over the years?

 

All the very best

Les

 

Now realise I have this book already - my mistake i thought you were talking about the recent Peter Tuffrey book. 

 

Not so certain as you are about any of the images apart from the preservation era shot of 70000. I think this says much about the technical limitations of colour film of the day and as you say, none of the angles are helping resolve this obscure quest we are on!

 

For me  - 70023 perhaps green, 70038 looks black - compare the smoke deflector where it meets the running board - looks the same to me. 70050 ex works Crewe 1963 is a possible. 72007's not disputed green painted cylinder cover also looks black at the top - a result no doubt of weathering, heat, lighting and again the limitations of the colour film.

 

I doubt we are ever going to find definitive evidence and I still think if Hornby have evidence they would produce it. The National Railway Museum are sticklers for accuracy  - it would be fascinating to know their reasoning for the green running plates on 70013.  

[Les1952]

Looking at other colour pictures the best way to guess the colour of the top of the running plate seems to be to look at the angle iron holding the deflectors on.   The angle is attached to plate and deflector so it will have been painted with one of them.

 

If it is green then the running plate is green.  If black then it could indicate the running plate is black, but not conclusively.

 

Now, if the locos were all painted at Crewe, why were some angle irons black and others green?

 

My guess is that painters weren't always consistent, especially if there was something not mentioned in the instructions....

 

Les

 

[robmcg]

The other side of my new R3996 72009  'Clan Stewart', room light Canon M6 MkII 33MP camera, unedited,  all colour and exposure settings on medium, or standard or average.  Adjacent window light, a little tungsten room light.

 

Beautiful smooth runner straight from box.

 

 

I ought to add that I think the green running plate top may well be ok for 72009 and that earlier Crewe-built engines were commonly perhaps usually black, but not necessarily, I await definitive photogaphic evidence with interest. 

 

For interest's sake here is the same pic with a small touch of judicious  editing, mainly to brighten the black bits.

 

 

We shall see how the Bachmann V2 compares! 

Edited December 4, 2021 by robmcg
typo, addition

[apollanaut]

Great photos Rob, as usual!

 

I’m also the proud owner of 72009, which I purchased from Ironhorse Hobbies in Christchurch as they were selling it at more-or-less the same price as the UK retailers.

 

I simply had to have this version because it’s also my namesake loco  (my first name is actually Stewart!).

 

I’m on the fence regarding the green footplate, as I’ve studied the photos of the prototypes and agree that it’s hard to tell what the actual colour is from old shots of grimy, hard-working Clans in action.

 

But there’s one area where the new version is a distinct improvement on my older model of Clan MacGregor. The clarity, hue and sharpness of the numerals and fine lining is much better on the 2021 version than my older model: as shown in these closeups I took of the two cabsides for comparison:

 

 

 

Edited December 5, 2021 by apollanaut

[Ian Hargrave]

1 hour ago, apollanaut said:

Great photos Rob, as usual!

 

I’m also the proud owner of 72009, which I purchased from Ironhorse Hobbies in Christchurch as they were selling it at more-or-less the same price as the UK retailers.

 

I simply had to have this version because it’s also my namesake loco  (my first name is actually Stewart!).

 

I’m on the fence regarding the green footplate, as I’ve studied the photos of the prototypes and agree that it’s hard to tell what the actual colour is from old shots of grimy, hard-working Clans in action.

 

But there’s one area where the new version is a distinct improvement on my older model of Clan MacGregor. The clarity, hue and sharpness of the numerals and fine lining is much better on the 2021 version than my older model: as shown in these closeups I took of the two cabsides for comparison:

 

 

 

As maybe in regards to clarity but the outer ( ochre ) lining is the wrong colour. Apart from which,the  beauty contest on the green  is also way off .Then there’s the footplate colour conundrum. Despite Mike Wilde’s opinion in Hornby Mag,there’s no concrete evidence available.The first iteration got it right .I’m pleased you like your model but I’m sticking with my first version . OK I’m a killjoy if you like but to me both livery and lining are wildly inaccurate .

[Ian Hargrave]

12 hours ago, robmcg said:

The other side of my new R3996 72009  'Clan Stewart', room light Canon M6 MkII 33MP camera, unedited,  all colour and exposure settings on medium, or standard or average.  Adjacent window light, a little tungsten room light.

 

Beautiful smooth runner straight from box.

 

 

I ought to add that I think the green running plate top may well be ok for 72009 and that earlier Crewe-built engines were commonly perhaps usually black, but not necessarily, I await definitive photogaphic evidence with interest. 

 

For interest's sake here is the same pic with a small touch of judicious  editing, mainly to brighten the black bits.

 

 

We shall see how the Bachmann V2 compares! 

 
Great photos again Rob but comparison In what respect ?   Below the running plate,the Clan is probably the better.

As far as livery and lining are concerned,I’m sure the V2 is more prototypically accurate. In any case,they’re two different models of two different locos.

[adb968008]

72009 has green cylinders, is that not living proof that mistakes can happen ?

[Black 5 Bear]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

72009 has green cylinders, is that not living proof that mistakes can happen ?

Which with regard to recent discussion on this thread is prototypical for that particular locomotive.

R3995 Clan MacDonald is the version which appears to have the most mistakes as modelled in the form of a green running plate, bang plate fitted to a non AWS fitted loco and a  incorrectly coloured rear tender panel and dome.

Edited December 5, 2021 by Black 5 Bear