Early Risers.

[Tony_S]

Afternoon all.

I have been been loading the freezer. I was given a bag of frozen stuff. That went well, then I was handed a lot of fresh stuff to freeze which was “challenging”. Fortunately I was able to remove stuff to defrost over the next few days to eat. 
I hope to do a bit of pottering in the garage while it is pleasant today. 
Tony

[Compound2632]

Well, pretty much the franchise in Great Britain prior to 1918, or at least, 1885.

[jamie92208]

54 minutes ago, Lantavian said:

 

The property ownership qualification sounds fine until you consider how high house prices have risen, and how many people can't afford to buy.

 

A lot of nurses and teachers, police and firefighters, and, ironically, soldiers and their families (who live in MoD property) who have created lots of benefits for the country would be locked out of democracy.

 

Further, property owners would be a powerful "in group" with a vested interest in policies that benefit people who own property, and not the country as a whole. 

 

How happy would you be to pay taxes to a government over which you have no control. That is almost a form of slavery.

 

Which was acceptable in Athens thousands of years ago, but not, I think, today.

 

 

I believe that the great reform act of 1832, IIRC, was thecstart of the process to widen the franchise, which until then had only been for males with proprty aboveca certain value, so nothing new under the sun.

 

Anyway, Ivy has been removed from the top of a wall.  Other unmentionable  pastimes now after various chores.

 

Keep safe.

 

Jamie

 

PS  posted at the same time as Compunds.

Edited April 7, 2020 by jamie92208

[The Stationmaster]

39 minutes ago, jamie92208 said:

 

 

Jamie

 

PS  posted at the same time as Compunds.

Seems all you pink engine types must think at a similar pace.  Maybe I ought to delve out one of the photos in my collection which shows one of those pink 'spinner' single driver thingies on a coal train to keep you occupied? 

[iL Dottore]

3 hours ago, Lantavian said:

 

The property ownership qualification sounds fine until you consider how high house prices have risen, and how many people can't afford to buy...

You make a valid point (and my tongue was somewhat in my cheek when I posted that notion). I would argue that the theoretical basis of democracy is that a voter has, through military service, shown a true commitment to the existence of the state by putting his body in harms way to protect the state (NB until recently the voter has always been male), after completing such service the voter is then assumed to be old and wise enough to make rational, informed decisions and the property qualification is so that all decisions by voters will be for the benefit of the state, as bad decisions of voters will have repercussions on property owners.
 

Of course, Athenian democracy was not inclusive, excluding from the ranks of voters women, “foreigners” (non-Athenians) and - of course - slaves. However, the cynic in me has to ask whether or not modern Western European democracy is nothing more than a fig leaf, convincing voters that “their votes matter” when the rich and powerful (as ever) make the decisions.

 

However, I am convinced that lowering the voting age to 16 would be a mistake: awash with teenage hormones, susceptible to clever manipulation (how else can you explain the success of boy bands and death metal?..) and full of romantic notions not yet shattered by reality. It would be a recipe for chaos, if not disaster (Ministry for Showing Parents They Are Wrong??? Grants for painting bedrooms black???) I mean I wouldn’t trust my 16-year old self to decide on what to have for breakfast, let alone who should govern the country.

 

Finally two thoughts: firstly, if everything is truly decided by the rich and powerful behind the scenes, then all the Chinese government has to do to win world-wide approval is give their people the illusion of democracy (free speech, allowing dissent and protests) whilst carrying on as usual behind the scenes...

Secondly, the real nature of politics and power is laid bare by an Eastern European joke, recounted by Len Deighton in his Funeral In Berlin: “Capitalism is the exploitation of man by man. Yes? Well socialism is exactly the reverse.“

 

Enjoy the sunny weather.

iD

Edited April 7, 2020 by iL Dottore
Correct quote

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

I would argue that the theoretical basis of democracy is that a voter has, through military service, shown a true commitment to the existence of the state by putting his body in harms way to protect the state (NB until recently the voter has always been male),

 

So the primary function of the state and its citizens is to wage war? A somewhat outmoded point of view. I'm sure even the Athenians preferred those times when they weren't at war with the Persians.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[The Lurker]

12 hours ago, pH said:

Some pics from today's walk in the woods.

 

A fungus - a bit out of focus, but nice colours:

 

 

Lots of little fungi:

 

 

We live in a temperate rainforest, and the moss grows well:

 

 

As do ferns - even on trees:

 

The trilliums are coming out now. It's the official flower of Ontario, but we get them here as well:

 

 

When in Vancouver a couple of years back we had a guided tour that took in a bit of nature (well, Lynn Canyon) from a very knowledgeable and engaging chap. He pointed out the mosses and the ferns and the Douglas Pines and then he pointed out the"Oregon grape" and ran through all of the potential medicinal qualities. He was slightly put out when I said that we had it in our back garden, only we called in Mahonia.

 

Still, all came good because the tour took us past all of the supercar showrooms (much to Younger Lurker's delight) and ended up at an ice cream place that hundreds of varieties.

[Ian Abel]

54 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

susceptible to clever manipulation

I see you've met or observed the lower-income middle-American voter then

Based on that demographic I'd posit that 16 year-olds wouldn't do any worse!

 

Chewsday - yep, all day!

Nothing exciting or otherwise from yesterday, save yet-another-report change required for "auditors"

Got the Chinese take-away kerb-side pickup last evening, it's one of our favourite places and the portions for take-away are huge, so will do us for probably another lunch AND dinner

 

Not that we make it a huge event usually anyway, except having a family dinner, but Easter Sunday will probably not have anything special, just whatever we have on hand for the two of us. We realized last evening that we've probably already missed the window for a delivery this week to get anything "extra".

(Having checked since I started writing, I can confirm the next delivery available is Monday - Mrs suitably ordering the few things we should get).

 

Minnesota seems to have handled the lock-down very well, thanks to our governor, and we've see fewer cases than expected/predicted so far, the message is to urge us to continue the stay-at-home and consider everyone as friends/people we'd wish no harm on.

Sadly we are adjacent to THREE of only four remaining states that have not/refuse to enact a stay-at-home order. Notably, Iowa, and North and South Dakota, they insist that they are smaller populations and spread out so don't need to have any order - no accounting for stupid!

 

9 and overcast, headed for 21 and some rain/drizzle later.

 

Stay safe everyone.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Ian Abel

[The Lurker]

Greetings all from Sidcup where it is sunny and the skies are blue.

 

I quite like Il Dottore's idea; we can exclude the hoi polloi from voting and better still we can ostracise anyone who becomes too popular - 10 years exile for a politician; perfect! It would also lead to an increase in industrial activity in  the Potteries, because we would need a fair few pot shards.

[iL Dottore]

55 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

So the primary function of the state and its citizens is to wage war? A somewhat outmoded point of view. I'm sure even the Athenians preferred those times when they weren't at war with the Persians.

No, of course not (although it is easy to see it that way, given our calamitous history), the point of the military service requirement, which was extant also in times of peace, is to prove that the would be Athenian voter loves his country enough to be willing to put himself in harm’s way to defend it if so needed - thus earning the right to vote.

One other thought, although we read about the Great Campaigns of the Ancient World in our history books, I see these accounts as the historian’s version of the tabloid credo “bad news makes good sales”. I suspect, from my reading of history books on the Roman Army and the like, that your average Roman/Athenian soldier spent most of his military career cleaning things, doing drills and training, spending endless hours on guard duty, complaining ceaselessly about pay/food/equipment/the officers, interspersed with a little light policing and - of course - vigilantly avoiding the Centurion’s eye and being “volunteered”  (When you think about it, it would seem odd that so many men would volunteer to join the Roman army as auxiliaries and thus gain their Roman citizenship after completing 25 years of military service if there was a very, very high probability that their military career would be rapidly cut very short indeed by military action.)

I believe that there is a lot we can learn from both the Romans and the Greeks, including some concepts of behaviour we could do well by adopting!

illigitimus nils carborundum est

iD

Edited April 7, 2020 by iL Dottore

[Compound2632]

"... the old lie: dulce et decroum est pro Patria mori." [Owen, after Horace.]

[Tony_S]

8 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

"... the old lie: dulce et decroum est pro Patria mori." [Owen, after Horace.]

I went to a school with a Latin motto but we didn’t study Latin. I think it was replaced by woodwork. 

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

I went to a school with a Latin motto but we didn’t study Latin. I think it was replaced by woodwork. 

 

It's an English poem by an English poet. And indeed, to please @iL Dottore, it was conscription in the Great War that led directly to the introduction of universal male suffrage in 1918. But that is not sufficient to make that war or any other necessarily just either in its goals or conduct.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[Tony_S]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

 

It's an English poem by an English poet. 

Only the clever boys did English Lit. No poetry on the English Language sylllabus  taught to the rest of us. 

[Compound2632]

10 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

Only the clever boys did English Lit. No poetry on the English Language sylllabus  taught to the rest of us. 

 

Well, you will be pleased to know that practically everyone does Eng. LIt. (including war poems) as well as Eng. Lang. these days - and indeed have done since I was at school, which is a good long while ago. A triumph of the comprehensive ethos. 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Compound2632

[Happy Hippo]

48 minutes ago, iL Dottore said:

No, of course not (although it is easy to see it that way, given our calamitous history), the point of the military service requirement, which was extant also in times of peace, is to prove that the would be Athenian voter loves his country enough to be willing to put himself in harm’s way to defend it if so needed - thus earning the right to vote.

Be careful!

 

You are treading very close to exposing the secretive RMWeb Platinum membership, only issued (foc) to serving or retired members of the armed forces, reserve forces, various cadet forces and anyone who has worked for the military in a professional capacity.

 

No badges, no secret handshakes, no reunion dinners.  

 

I can't say any more, but have you noticed that such members are exempt attacks of the awlmighty?

[pH]

1 hour ago, Ian Abel said:

I see you've met or observed the lower-income middle-American voter then

Based on that demographic I'd posit that 16 year-olds wouldn't do any worse!

 

But what about lower-income middle-American 16 year-olds?

[Tony_S]

1 minute ago, Compound2632 said:

Well, you will be pleased to know that practically everyone does Eng. LIt. (including war poems and this one in particular) as well as Eng. Lang. these days - and indeed have done since I was at school, which is a good long while ago. A triumph of the comprehensive ethos.

Don’t worry I am well aware of what happens in modern education both locally and in faraway places. My son’s school didn’t do Latin but he was in the after school Latin club. I once made them XIII th Legion bread for some celebration they were studying. 

I am also proof that having a O level in Woodwork does not mean I can achieve wondrous feats of carpentry, just that I have enough knowledge to know I am not doing it properly.  

[Gwiwer]

Afternoon all, 

 

Checking in after having sat in the sun with one of those yellow fizzy beers for the past hour or so.  Antidote?  If only ..... 

 

So far all continues to be well Upon the Hill of Strawberries.  SWMBO is adjusting to furloughed life, the cat is adjusting to having all-day company and pattage and I am adjusting to having some meals cooked for me rather than being the cooker of 95% of them.  

 

Tomorrow must include a supermarket adventure.  Wish me luck.  If not seen here by later in the evening please send Search and Rescue to Waitrose   

 

Stay well.  

[Compound2632]

7 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

just that I have enough knowledge to know I am not doing it properly.  

 

That level of conscious incompetence is usually only reached at Ph.D level.

[J. S. Bach]

5 hours ago, iL Dottore said:

 ...snip... your average Roman/Athenian soldier spent most of his military career cleaning things, doing drills and training, spending endless hours on guard duty, complaining ceaselessly about pay/food/equipment/the officers, interspersed with a little light policing and - of course - vigilantly avoiding the Centurion’s eye and being “volunteered”  (When you think about it, it would seem odd that so many men would volunteer to join the  ...snip...

 

iD

Hmmm, sounds like the US Navy that I was in; things never change. As a friend in the US Army told me "Hurry up and wait". Other than a difference in weaponry, I suspect that the average Roman/Athenian soldier would just about feel right at home.

Edited April 7, 2020 by J. S. Bach

[TheQ]

The riggers boots arrived  about 18 hours after ordering  I'm not a member of prime. 

 

With full time education being required for most till 18 followed by university for another 3 years for many.  Most have no idea of real life these days till aged over 21, so I would be in favour of putting the voting age to 25...

 

Having Scottish education  English  was English,  none of these fancy subgroups.  I could have taken Gaidhlig learners but I'm incompetent at English let alone anything else... 

 

[iL Dottore]

46 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

...But that is not sufficient to make that war or any other necessarily just either in its goals or conduct...

I am truly curious, what does make a “just” war? Every war is a “just” war from one side’s perspective. Whilst, morally, one could claim that no war is a “just” war and war itself represents a failure of politics and economics, I think that there have been conflicts that have been morally justified. 

[jamie92208]

48 minutes ago, Tony_S said:

Only the clever boys did English Lit. No poetry on the English Language sylllabus  taught to the rest of us. 

Thise of us that took science subjects couldn't do English Lit or German, but English Language, French and Latin were compulsory. At least some of the French has come in useful.

 

Jamie

[Tony_S]

25 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That level of conscious incompetence is usually only reached at Ph.D level.

 I am the only one in this household not at that level!