DLT's SR Locos - Lord Nelson Craftsman Kit

[Wilton 34041]

On 31/07/2021 at 12:54, Pierview said:

Not up to DLT's exquisite modelling standard but here is my attempt at 30258  from a few years ago. I had been waiting forever for either the Falcon Brass or Alan Gibson kits to reappear on the market and I was unaware of the existence of the Connoisseur kit. Eventually I brewed my own G6 using an SEF O2 kit, which required a couple of small modifications , including shortening the footplate length and raising the cab height. Fortunately the G6 frame set was still available from Alan Gibson which I built and fitted with Gibson wheels, high level gearbox and Mashima motor. Certainly far from perfect but a massive improvement on its predecessor, which was the inaccurate old Wills kit on a HD chassis.  

Barry

Barry, I'm interested in your comment " inaccurate old Will's kit" as I have an unbuilt one which I intended to put on a scale set of frames ( probably Gibson). So can you tell me please what the issues are with it? 

Thanks, Phil.

[DLT]

Here is my old Wills G6 on a Wrenn(?) chassis.  Taken from the Here's One I Made Earlier  topic.

 

[Pierview]

Phil

The Wills G6  first came out about 1960 and was a bodyline kit intended to fit the Hornby Dublo RI  chassis. It was the first white metal kit that I built and became a particular favourite . Like many, products of the time, however, it was compromised by stretching the dimensions to fit the proprietary chassis and the tank sides in particular are too high. This together with the overscale HD wheels  has the effect of making the loco stand far too tall. You will see what I mean by comparing with plans . A friend dealt with the problem by removing a few mm from the bottom of the tank side castings and this did produce an improved appearance.  Unfortunately I couldn't do this with my G6 as dismantling would have ruined it, and so I reluctantly sold it on. My version was much like DLT's except that I replaced the stovepipe chimney with a Drummond type, as the former is not correct for a BR era model. With determination you can probably make a decent model from the old G6 kit but I took the view that for me the O2 kit was a better starting point. 

Barry

[hayfield]

21 hours ago, DLT said:

Here is my old Wills G6 on a Wrenn(?) chassis.  Taken from the Here's One I Made Earlier  topic.

 

 

I think you will find many whitemetal kits especially one of this period, compromised were taken, and for those wanting something a little better quite a lot of alterations may be necessary for some, especially to those who dislike building chassis, using the Hornby Dublo/Wrenn R1 chassis is a boon

 

Southeastern now do a decent etched brass R1 replacement FC201 which in its self will greatly improve both looks and performance, certainly makes the possibility of having a detailed motor less cab. Branchlines also do a R1 chassis, but this may involve altering the front splasher and may still be incorrect for the G6. How far you go in replacing parts (sprung buffers etc) is up to the modeller

 

I have heard the G6 is an 0-6-0 version of the 02 or visa a versa, how true this is I do not know, but the Southeastern Finecast 02 is an updated kit and may be a better substitute if this statement is correct 

 

Falcon brass do an etched G6 (etched fret kits may be available 

[Pierview]

The SEF replacement chassis is certainly an improvement but it mirrors the Hornby Dublo R1 wheelbase, which is incorrect for a G6. This is why I opted to build my chassis using Gibson frames. The O2 and the G6 are indeed very similar above the footplate, but beware the detail differences, including cab height. The attraction of the SEF O2 kit for me was that as well as the correct size tanks it also had a great deal more extra detail, including cab fittings. 

 

Incidentally, the Dublo R1 wheelbase is also incorrect for an RI ! The Branchlines chassis combined with a modified and detailed HD/Wrenn  body makes a much more accurate RI. It is however still incorrect for a G6. Complicated  ain't it!  Here's my rebuilt RI of a few years ago. As well as supplying the chassis Branchlines also provided a nice cast replacement chimney.

 

Barry 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Pierview

[Wilton 34041]

Thanks DLT, Barry and Hayfield for your replies. I knew about the R1 chassis for the G6 but it's good to know how the Wills kit was adapted to fit. At least now I can be prepared with the razor saw and a drawing to do surgery. I'm not sure on a chassis just now - probably Gibson frames I think. I also have a Finecast M7 cab details set which might suit.

Sounds like it's going to be fun, just as well I'm good with low melt solder.

Cheers, Phil B.

 

[DLT]

If you were starting from new, then an SEF 02 body kit would be much better than the G6 kit.  Unless that one has been updated?

Although, the G6 had the higher cab, that only the last ten O2s had.  I'm not sure if that is included in the O2 kit

Edited August 9, 2021 by DLT

[hayfield]

I have had a quick look firstly the G6 is not one of the revised models, the cab side cut-outs are about 5mm not wide enough and a bit too short. The 02 sides are about right, but the front of the cab needs to be shortened by 2mm. Is it worth buying a pair of 02 sides to correct the issue or buy an 02 and ask for a chassis swap ?

[Pierview]

The O2 kit has the lower height cab and no alternative part is offered. I got round this by sweating on strips  of white metal to raise the height of  the  cab sides. The front and rear spectacle plates were merely re-positioned by moving them up to suit the revised height. Asking for a chassis swap for the O2 still leaves you with an 0-6-0 chassis that has the wrong spacing for a G6 unfortunately!

 

Barry   

[hayfield]

15 hours ago, Pierview said:

The O2 kit has the lower height cab and no alternative part is offered. I got round this by sweating on strips  of white metal to raise the height of  the  cab sides. The front and rear spectacle plates were merely re-positioned by moving them up to suit the revised height. Asking for a chassis swap for the O2 still leaves you with an 0-6-0 chassis that has the wrong spacing for a G6 unfortunately!

 

Barry   

 

Barry it does more or less match up with the drawing in Russell's book and looks so much better than the G6 sides, I am now considering trying at least one conversion. OK the chassis is wrong,  but this goes for many locos, I guess there are the Gibson frames or perhaps a call to Falcon brass to see if they have a spare chassis for sale (taking the risk its better than other options)

 

Its a great pity the etches from Connoisseur are not available 

Edited August 10, 2021 by hayfield

[Dunsignalling]

Just as a matter of interest, how far out is the SEF frame kit?

 

John

[hayfield]

The G6 is designed to take the Hornby Dublo R1 chassis, which itself may be inaccurate. The new Southeastern Finecast chassis whilst having an incorrect wheelbase (rear wheels about 3mm too far out) does have the full breakgear detail etc. Its wrong but its the best option at the moment and in the end how many would know the difference. Far less noticeable than the cab sides

[Wilton 34041]

Gosh fellas, I didn't expect to get this level of response. This is great so useful and just shows how good rmweb can be. I do have a couple of new (old) O2 kits as it happens so one could be used for the G6. (You know how it is, years ago I bought kits to put by and now have enough in the loft to stock a shop!!) Falcon are selling various on eBay - body etches some with chassis but no chassis on their own yet.

Phil B.

[Pierview]

The O2 kit has the lower height cab and no alternative part is offered. I got round this by sweating on strips  of white metal to raise the height of  the  cab sides. The front and rear spectacle plates were merely re-positioned by moving them up to suit the revised height. Asking for a chassis swap for the O2 still leaves you with an 0-6-0 chassis that has the wrong spacing for a G6 unfortunately!

 

Barry   

[Dunsignalling]

Scale wheelbase by my reckoning (rounded to the nearest hundredth of a mm) is 27.32mm + 29.68mm, 57mm overall. The Hornby Dublo R1 chassis (I was recently given one) is 26mm + 31mm, also 57mm overall.

 

Therefore, assuming it fits into the Wills/SEF body as well as it goes against the drawings in An Illustrated Record of Southern Locomotives (J.H. Russell, OPC) it's arguably the middle, driving axle that's too far forward rather than the rear one being too far back.

 

I have a SEF chassis pack somewhere but can't lay my hands on it right now....

 

John

Edited August 10, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Pierview]

Sorry, don't know how my last posting repeated itself 17 hours later! However I can confirm that the Gibson frames are accurate, and whilst there is a little more work involved I think the result is worthwhile.

Incidentally, as well as Russell's book referred to by Hayfield, there is also an excellent article and plans by Ian Beattie and Len Wheal in the August 1997 "Railway Modeller" . As mentioned by Dunsignalling there is also an interesting article on G6 variations in the current South West Circular. It appears that one or two locos had a non standard wheelbase, so choose your model subject carefully! 

  

[hayfield]

2 minutes ago, Pierview said:

Sorry, don't know how my last posting repeated itself 17 hours later! However I can confirm that the Gibson frames are accurate, and whilst there is a little more work involved I think the result is worthwhile.

Incidentally, as well as Russell's book referred to by Hayfield, there is also an excellent article and plans by Ian Beattie and Len Wheal in the August 1997 "Railway Modeller" . As mentioned by Dunsignalling there is also an interesting article on G6 variations in the current South West Circular. It appears that one or two locos had a non standard wheelbase, so choose your model subject carefully! 

  

 

The simple fact is what compromises are we willing to accept. Certainly if using 00 gauge the wheelbase is as accurate if more more than the gauge. Yet we accept this. I can understand others wanting something a bit more accurate, but a new SEF etched chassis will look far better than a Hornby Dublo R1

 

If you want a lower cab variant then its just the case of reducing the front cab by a mm or so and asking for a chassis swap

[Nick C]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

Scale wheelbase by my reckoning (rounded to the nearest hundredth of a mm) is 27.32mm + 29.68mm, 57mm overall. The Hornby Dublo R1 chassis (I was recently given one) is 26mm + 31mm, also 57mm overall.

 

Therefore, assuming it fits into the Wills/SEF body as well as it goes against the drawings in An Illustrated Record of Southern Locomotives (J.H. Russell, OPC) it's arguably the middle, driving axle that's too far forward rather than the rear one being too far back.

 

I have a SEF chassis pack somewhere but can't lay my hands on it right now....

 

John

 

According to the recent SWC article on them, wheelbase is either 6'10"+7'5" (batches G6,C7,X7,D9) or 6'10"+8'0" (batches M9, R9) - scaling to 27.33+29.67mm or 27.33+32mm. The extra length on the last two batches being due to the secondhand boilers they were originally fitted with.

[Pierview]

9 hours ago, hayfield said:

 

The simple fact is what compromises are we willing to accept. Certainly if using 00 gauge the wheelbase is as accurate if more more than the gauge. Yet we accept this. I can understand others wanting something a bit more accurate, but a new SEF etched chassis will look far better than a Hornby Dublo R1

 

If you want a lower cab variant then its just the case of reducing the front cab by a mm or so and asking for a chassis swap

I agree that it is entirely up to the individual . In my case having discovered the incorrect wheel base I wanted the most accurate frames that I could get , but we are all different in what we deem acceptable - and rightly so!

 

Just to clarify, however, the O2 kit already portrays the lower cab variant , and as such is incorrect for a G6. It actually needs raising for a G6 conversion.  

[Dunsignalling]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

Scale wheelbase by my reckoning (rounded to the nearest hundredth of a mm) is 27.32mm + 29.68mm, 57mm overall. The Hornby Dublo R1 chassis (I was recently given one) is 26mm + 31mm, also 57mm overall.

 

Therefore, assuming it fits into the Wills/SEF body as well as it goes against the drawings in An Illustrated Record of Southern Locomotives (J.H. Russell, OPC) it's arguably the middle, driving axle that's too far forward rather than the rear one being too far back.

 

I have a SEF chassis pack somewhere but can't lay my hands on it right now....

 

John

I've found the chassis kit. SEF reference FC201 described as "revised" and with a wheelbase of 26mm + 32mm.

 

John

[hayfield]

10 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

I've found the chassis kit. SEF reference FC201 described as "revised" and with a wheelbase of 26mm + 32mm.

 

John

 

John

 

Quite right the 200 series of chassis are all 3 revised with brakegear etc

 FC200 Jinty replacement for a tank loco

FC201 R1 replacement chassis

FC202 Jinty replacement for tender locos

 

The Wills Finecast Chassis are basic etched chassis with no brakegear (FC100, FC101 & FC102)

 

Don't forget Branchlines do a replacement chassis for the R1 loco with the correct (R1) wheelbase

[DLT]

Back to work on the G6.  Having ordered a motor and gearbox, I anticipated a wait for Highlevel to get to grips with their back orders.  In the meantime I got on with a small job for Jack P, here:  Southern Railway Modelling

As it happened the Highlevel order arrived surprisingly quickly.  As usual, the Roadrunner-Plus gearbox went together beautifully and runs like a dream.

 

Once this was done, I started on pickups.  With drive on the middle axle, pickups have to be fitted around it.  An additional factor with a small-wheeled loco is that there isn't much wheel-rim accessible for standard wipers, as the spring-hangers take up all the space.

 

I can't remember where I saw this solution, but my thanks to whoever it was.  A small peice of wire is added to support the end of the spring, and the hanger (hidden behind the wheel rim) is cut/filed away to provide access space for a wiper.

 

With drive on the centre axle, any pickup plate ends up being in two sections.  Two extra spacers have been fitted to provide mounting for the pickup plate.

The plate itself is a bit large at the moment, and will be cut/filed to size later.

 

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by DLT

[DLT]

All assembled and pickups fitted.  They will probably need a bit more tweaking to achieve the best.  The pickup plate is screwed on with the addition of small washers of black plasticard for insulation.

 

Edited September 7, 2022 by DLT

[DLT]

And here's its first test run,

 

 

A little jerky to start with, but its just been assembled, no lubrication, and next to no weight in the body yet.

[hayfield]

8 hours ago, DLT said:

All assembled and pickups fitted.  They will probably need a bit more tweaking to achieve the best.  The pickup plate is screwed on with the addition of small washers of black plasticard for insulation.

 

 

DLT

 

Very cleaver, thanks for sharing