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OKWB - Kato Portram evolves to a Lister


Kenton
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Kenton- i wouldn't call NGRM-online slow moving Infact recently its improved greatly and throughput has been superb

Kind regards

A NGRM frequent flyer

Still find it slow compared to RMWeb. I probably visit once a week if that, and although there are some good topics on there I can't get over the feeling of "why are they not on RMWeb" ... almost a bit like that other forum that was set up by RMWeb renegades just to be anti RMWeb. I can't quite see the point of it - what's different? Perhaps if I was just narrow minded in Narrow Gauge, but I model in many scales and gauges and my modeling interest extends well beyond the narrow.

 

I still haven't heard of any progress on better sourcing these chassis that was in discussion months ago.

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  • 3 weeks later...
I can't get over the feeling of "why are they not on RMWeb"

There are lots of answers to that.

 

 

 

But as you've said it's ideal for those of us who aren't interested in standard gauge stuff. Chop all that out on RMweb and it's SLOOOOOOW compared to NGRM.

 

No further news of chassis sources on NGRM. Why not just build 2? wink.gif

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No further news of chassis sources on NGRM. Why not just build 2? wink.gif

I was thinking of even more - though I'm having enough problems getting motivated on this one (too many distractions The Ruston, a Simplex, a Planet, and others - not to mention a few others in the larger scales and gauges)

 

The potential for using this chassis is considerable - it is just the price per unit and the consciousness of having to destroy a perfectly good model just to get at them that disturbs.

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But I will return to it.

... and today I finally have ...

Trimmed the wires back and soldered them on to those pickups (very quickly)

 

portram_13.jpg

 

looks a bit of a mess but it does seem to work on track - given a little encouragement. No doubt it will be better once there is some weight on top. It will need some insulation against shorting on the floor.

 

on with cleaning up those castings

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A little more progress this evening finishes the floor and side frames

 

I have to keep reminding myself of the actual size of this thing is tiny and the tip on my 25W is hot.

 

lister_15.jpg

 

should be able to add the rest of the detail tomorrow. I am a bit worried about the 'rmless driver as supplied - it just looks a little too big - but I guess without him it will look very odd running around the layout.

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Hi kenton,

 

believe it or not, the driver is my measurements taken from myself before i started making him! Compare like for like to left! :lol: not everyone looks like merit figures! :P

he does have a arm to attach which i had to make seperate sadly as it wouldn't have been possible to remove from the mould easily or at all.

 

I have noticed someone did thin him down abit for their model.

 

Looking good Kenton

 

A little more progress this evening finishes the floor and side frames

 

I have to keep reminding myself of the actual size of this thing is tiny and the tip on my 25W is hot.

 

lister_15.jpg

 

should be able to add the rest of the detail tomorrow. I am a bit worried about the 'rmless driver as supplied - it just looks a little too big - but I guess without him it will look very odd running around the layout.

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believe it or not, the driver is my measurements taken from myself before i started making him! Compare like for like to left! :lol: not everyone looks like merit figures! :P

:D no offense intended

 

he does have a arm to attach which i had to make separate sadly as it wouldn't have been possible to remove from the mould easily or at all.

Thanks for the explanation - I had wondered why ... as I mutter to myself trying to fit it on.

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"Well Alf since you dislocated your arm down t'pit you have put on a little weight"

lister_21.jpg

... just one of the many reasons I do not like little people on my layouts.

 

"Well little guy, if you question my authority again you'll be out of here so fast your feet won't touch the ground."

 

Finished bar the painting (and we all know how soon that will happen - if ever) - as usual click on photo for complete story

 

lister_22.jpg

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  • 4 weeks later...

Kenton,

 

I've only just found the photo's, meant to post my efforts about a month ago.........

 

Firstly, curiosity got the better of me and I just had to have a look inside, this allowed me to solder to the pickups without risking meltdown. Also I wanted to feed the wires out of the end of the chassis in order to attach a resistor. After a bit of trial and error I settled on 470 ohms, this gives about the same top speed once the Kato circuit board has been removed. Said resistor is hidden inside the white heatshrink sleeving. I then had to grind a couple of slots out of the footplate underside for the wires.

post-9877-0-63567800-1302216667_thumb.jpg

 

post-9877-0-23706300-1302216824_thumb.jpg

 

Next I set about soldering up as much as was safe to do without other bits dropping off in the process. Detailing is an assortment of plasticard sections and various thicknesses of brass wire, the lifting eyes are thinned down handrail knobs. Curtains on the canopy fitted one are tissue paper painted with thinned down PVA to make them a bit more durable. The tissue is then scrunched up and flattened out again before being rolled up and superglued into place.

post-9877-0-89743000-1302217363_thumb.jpg

 

post-9877-0-75922300-1302217402_thumb.jpg

 

Finally a lick of green paint with a little oil staining around the bonnet and some mud and dust elsewhere. The driver was sustituted with a figure from Montys Models, I used their 'MSV53, Marine Worker' and adjusted one arm and leg to line up with the pedal and brake wheel.

post-9877-0-99446000-1302217897_thumb.jpg

 

post-9877-0-40441000-1302217929_thumb.jpg

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Clive,

 

I've been watching this thread with my N Brass Wickham in mind... are those wheels on a stub axle and do you think it would be feasible to replace the axles and gauge it out to 16.5mm?

 

Also, how high does it stand above track level?

 

TIA,

 

Jonathan

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Clive,

that is really nice additional detailing - though I don't think I will bother as I have enough trouble seeing the detail as it stands on the layout (not normally using any extra magnification just to observe things)

 

Mine seems to be running ok without a resistor (even if it is a little quick) - I guess I could revisit that one.

My biggest problem is weight - not having yet found a suitable passenger it is so lightweight that it seems to float above the track requiring the inevitable annoying shove to get going. I will look again at Montys range of figures.

 

Looking at yours and comparing to mine, I have concluded the gear and break handles on mine are too tall - so snipping may be in order.

 

I quite like the covered version, though were there many/any produced like that?

 

I've been watching this thread with my N Brass Wickham in mind... are those wheels on a stub axle and do you think it would be feasible to replace the axles and gauge it out to 16.5mm?

 

Also, how high does it stand above track level?

 

Johnathan,

There are no axles in these Portram units. Or at least anything that can be described as such - the wheels on each side are attached to the side frame with what looks like a rivet. (see Clive's pic above) So I guess you could consider drilling that out - but I wouldn't rate the chances - then you would need to replace it and put that gear back !!

 

I'm also intending to do a 4mm N-Brass Wickham using one of these Portrams - but it will remain OO9.

 

I have one of their 7mm Wickhams stalled on the WB while I try to figure out a 16.5mm power unit. The supplied axles are totally useless being chopped up 2mm wheelsets. Probably requires something like the Portram in HO.

 

The Portram unit is only 0.5mm clearance over track level so there is no/little leeway for filled in track and the Lister would probably have problems driving through static grass.

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Thanks, Kenton and sorry for the minor thread hijack. I couldn't quite make out from Clive's photos what was on the back of the wheel. I'd already more or less made my mind up it wasn't feasible within my engineering capacity.

 

One of these gauged to HO would be dead handy and I was a bit surprised not to find one when I browsed about. The Wickham has been on my WB in a corner for four or five years and it would be nice to get it to run.

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I wouldn't worry - I think it would be well beyond anyone's engineering capacity - challenge anyone?

I had one open, they can simply fall apart if you let the black plastic sides slip, and struggled madly to get all the bits back inside using the photo I linked to earlier.

 

I'm sure there must be a similar product out of Japan gauged for HO, but no one has identified it yet by ripping the guts out of an equivalent RTR. Such a low profile chassis would be in a great demand by 7mm NG'ers

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Thanks for the kind comments on my build.

 

A few more notes;

 

I did try running it without a resistor, I'm sure it'll be fine if driven gently. However my 009 stock gets borrowed occasionally and I'm not always sure what controllers are being used. Also, having tested the Kato circuit board, with my test bench controller (H&M Clipper) full on at 13 volts the motor output is only 3.7 volts off load. Hence a 470ohm resistor to protect the motor, I'm certain you can't get spare motors for these things!

 

I dont know how many Listers were supplied with canopies,they seem fairly common though. I just fancied building one of each really. Also it gives somewhere else to hide a bit more lead, every little helps......

 

As for re-gauging the wheelsets for a Wickham railcar, I think it's best left alone. The only posssible route I can think of would involve sacrificing a pair of chassis' , mounting them side by side and dispensing with the inner sets of wheels and gear chains. Does that make sense? Does a Wickham really need two motors? Don't know what minimum gauge you could achive by this method though. The Portram wheelbase is 12mm though, and the Wickham is about 14.5mm, not that the wheels would show. A Nigel Lawton chassis could be re-gauged, although there would be some motor intrusion above footplate level, although this would be largely hidden by the seats. I've got a one of these Wickhams lurking somewhere, must have a look at it again....

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I'm certain you can't get spare motors for these things!

I'm pretty certain I've read somewhere that the motor is the same unit that is used in a mobile phone (slightly older style) to vibrate. But I think if one went up in smoke I would just replace the complete unit, and look to add a resistor next time. My OO9 runs on 6-9V max and my main problem is getting more weight on board.

I don't know how many Listers were supplied with canopies,they seem fairly common though. I just fancied building one of each really. Also it gives somewhere else to hide a bit more lead, every little helps......

Don't get me wrong, I like what you have done and in preservation there are a couple with canopies added. It was just that I didn't think that they came out of the factory as such. Working from preserved prototypes can be misleading.

 

Has anyone heard if these Portram chassis are available separately yet? It remains an expensive way to go.

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Don't get me wrong, I like what you have done and in preservation there are a couple with canopies added. It was just that I didn't think that they came out of the factory as such. Working from preserved prototypes can be misleading.

 

I strongly suspect them to have been a optional extra, factory fitted. Certainly, many of those used on the Somerset Levels had the canopies, and since they all look very similar, I would assume they emerged from Lister looking like that. See this Flickr collection from Shapwick Heath:

 

Fisons railway - Shapwick Heath

 

Like all such things, there's a specialist website:

 

http://www.railtruck.org/index.htm

 

Adam

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Kenton,

 

The canopy was a factory optional extra, available with or without canvas screens. There's an article on Lister Railtrucks in Roy Link's NG&IRM Review 58 including drawings..

 

As for replacement motors, assuming you can find one the right size, 4 x 10mm. I should imagine getting the worm / flywheel off and on again could be the killer. These tiny coreless jobs dont take end loads kindly.

 

Another thought on re-gauging, how about taking out one set of wheels on their keeper plate and then mounting them 'outside' the kato moulding at your chosen gauge. Maybe only half the traction, but half the cost as well. If I get any more of these daft ideas..................

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  • 1 month later...

I've got a Portram I'm hoping to use to power an N gauge tube train I'm building at the moment, and I've got a few of questions about the bogies that hopefully someone can answer for me.

 

Firstly, are the brass tabs which stick out the top of the bogie part of the pickups from the wheels? Would they be a good place to attach wires from extra pickups on the unpowered bogies to feed into the motor?

 

Secondly, can anyone recommend a good way to attach the bogie to the chassis so it rotates freely? Trying to recreate the tab system seems a bit tricky, and anyway it only allows fairly restricted movement, suitable for a short articulated tram but probably not a longer tube car. I'm wondering if maybe gluing a 12BA nut to the top of it, into which I would screw a bolt passing through a hole in the chassis, would work?

 

Finally, just how much weight can a Portram bogie pull along the track? I expect a six car train would be too much for a pair of them but do you think they could manage a four car unit between them?

 

Thanks for your help,

 

Paul

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Firstly, are the brass tabs which stick out the top of the bogie part of the pickups from the wheels? Would they be a good place to attach wires from extra pickups on the unpowered bogies to feed into the motor?

To describe them as pickups is a bit rich - as they are independent frames - and yes they are good enough to solder the leads to - if you are quick, as you need to remember that the gear is plastic and attached.

http://i305.photobucket.com/albums/nn221/raylue/RailModel/KATO%20PORTRAM%20TLR/P9.jpg

 

portram_13.jpg

 

 

I'm wondering if maybe gluing a 12BA nut to the top of it, into which I would screw a bolt passing through a hole in the chassis, would work?

That might work but I can see problems getting it central, and possibly un-threading. You certainly couldn't go through the plastic, say for a bolt, as there is no room inside. One other way might be to have some sort of plastic housing mounted on top - but that will considerably increase the ride height.

 

Finally, just how much weight can a Portram bogie pull along the track? I expect a six car train would be too much for a pair of them but do you think they could manage a four car unit between them?

The original Portam (two motorised bogies pulls itself without any problem.

But my Lister struggles like mad with 5 V tipplers.

Part of the problem (as so often) is the weight of the 'loco' - make it too much and you get traction but the life is going to be short. To little weight and the wheels just spin. I'm still running mine on a 6V controller with no resistor in circuit. I would be surprised if it could pull more than one additional underground coach (but I guess that depends on how heavy it is and how free running).

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Kenton and Neil, many thanks for your help. If a tram can manage six Mk1s I'm hopeful its mechanism will cope with a tube train of the same length.

 

Paul

Do, please, keep us updated on progress. I am still a little concerned on the life of these units if they are subjected to large loading.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Just joining this thread from the Antipodes (Well, they say that Tasmanians are always behind the times!). Please, what is the wattage of resistor that is used to replace the circuit board (470 ohms)? Has anybody measured the resistance of the motor itself?

 

I am looking at using the chassis to put a motor into the Narobahn Jenbacher. Obviously there will be the need to fill all available space with as much weight as possible (depleted uranium :lol:? ), so I need to replace the circuit board with a resistor.

 

Thanks,

 

Ron from Hobart

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so I need to replace the circuit board with a resistor.

Hi Ron, welcome to RMWeb.

 

I didn't bother with a resistor replacement - it hasn't blown up yet but I am using a max 6V controller

 

If you check Boscarn'e post #59 above, he states he has replaced it with a 470 ohm resistor.

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