Ballast

[Kris]

Rather than creating another thread, can I ask here if play sand is any good for n gauge ballast, or is it too fine? I intend getting some aquarium sand to use, but just remembered we have loads of play sand. Sure my daughter wouldn't mind me nicking a bit!

 

cheers

Darren

 

I use sand for 2mm stuff. Some can be overly corse so you need to have a look at your own supply.

 

 

 

[Modernist]

I use sand for 2mm stuff. Some can be overly corse so you need to have a look at your own supply.

 

If the problem is usually overly coarse sand then play sand might be okay. It's specifically not coarse as it's for children to play with. I'll try some out on a bit of spare track.

 

thanks

Darren

[45157]

A very satisfied Woodland Scenics user here, I like the quality and consistancy of all their products.

The ballast is available in a considerable range of colours and in course, medium and fine grades, it is also a fraction of the weight of granite.

My main reason for using it was I needed a medium brown colour for the area I chose to model.

 

BUT

 

I used both closed cell foam rubber (from C+L) with a layer of cork on top as a track base, secured base, track and ballast with PVA and am very dissapointed with the noise level.

I found the ballast needed to be well soaked with the dilute PVA and a very fine (gentle) pre gluing spray with water & washing up liquid is essential as the ballast is quite easy to move.

However tempting, do not touch it until dry as it will stick to whatever you touch it with (including fingers !!).

Personally, if there is ever another layout (I like to hope so) I will not use PVA to secure either the track, or the ballast, but would use Woodland Scenics ballast again as a preference, although that is for home use in a "quiet" garage, it's amazing how little track noise you hear in an exhibition hall.

I have bought some solvent free impact adhesive for experimentation (mainly plastic to card) but with an eye to replacing PVA for lineside work.

 

I model in 7mm and thought the medium grade would be fine for well kept track with the fine for sidings etc and this opinion remained when it was all in place but still dry.

After I had sealed it all down and it dried I think the medium looks too large for the location and wish I had used nothing larger than the fine grade.

I am now working my way around the track with fine ballast and sieved barbeque ash (plus some weathering) to lessen the effect.

Although (forgetting all the fidelity to prototype arguments) the appearance of the ballast has got to be down to the taste and preferences of the end user and how they want "their" railway to look.

 

In short .....Woodland Scenics, excellent.

PVA ? think about it carefully.

 

regards

Stewart

[Steve Hewitt]

BUT

 

I used both closed cell foam rubber (from C+L) with a layer of cork on top as a track base, secured base, track and ballast with PVA and am very dissapointed with the noise level.

I found the ballast needed to be well soaked with the dilute PVA and a very fine (gentle) pre gluing spray with water & washing up liquid is essential as the ballast is quite easy to move.

However tempting, do not touch it until dry as it will stick to whatever you touch it with (including fingers !!).

Personally, if there is ever another layout (I like to hope so) I will not use PVA to secure either the track, or the ballast, but would use Woodland Scenics ballast again as a preference, although that is for home use in a "quiet" garage, it's amazing how little track noise you hear in an exhibition hall.

I have bought some solvent free impact adhesive for experimentation (mainly plastic to card) but with an eye to replacing PVA for lineside work.

 

In short .....Woodland Scenics, excellent.

PVA ? think about it carefully.

 

regards

Stewart

 

Stewart,

Try "Copydex" as a track adhesive.

It retains a flexibility when dry and reduces noise transmission greatly.

The "solid" properties of track/balast/PVA when dry causes the baseboards to amplify noise like the skin of a drum.

 

Steve.

[Pete the Elaner]

Lovely. Would Copydex also be a good adhesive to glue my track down with?

Yes.

 

can I ask here if play sand is any good for n gauge ballast, or is it too fine? I intend getting some aquarium sand to use, but just remembered we have loads of play sand. Sure my daughter wouldn't mind me nicking a bit!

 

Same advice for both of you: Try some out on a small bit of test track. Try different things on different sections (ballast, adhesives, weathering etc). See what works best for you.

It can vary depending on where you want to model.

Eg: You may find that glueing track with PVA makes it too noisy, but this may be desireable on a girder bridge.

[45157]

Stewart,

Try "Copydex" as a track adhesive.

It retains a flexibility when dry and reduces noise transmission greatly.

The "solid" properties of track/balast/PVA when dry causes the baseboards to amplify noise like the skin of a drum.

 

Steve.

 

Thanks Steve

 

I do have a pot on the shelf but as it doesn't "go off" as such have always been a bit unsure of using it in critical areas (old, engineering background, definately a belt and braces type !!!).

These days I suffer a bit with back problems and could simply not work under the baseboards for any length of time, so all wiring, maintenance etc is done with the boards on their side, and I did not want bits of track moving in that situation.

I must make up a length of track stuck and ballasted with Copydex which I can "bump about" each time I am in the garage and see how it survives.

 

I do like the idea of the solvent free impact adhesive though, so I will be experimenting with that shortly.

 

regards

Stewart

[MPR]

Good advice here on top ballast - but what do you use for cinder paths etc?

I'm already using 2mm Woodland Scenics ballast for my 4mm layout to keep the texture "fine"

but this means I need to go even finer for the "ash" areas between tracks.

I've acquired some real smokebox char, but even ground down, I'm finding it far too dark - any ideas?

 

Regards

 

Martin

[Kris]

 

I've acquired some real smokebox char, but even ground down, I'm finding it far too dark - any ideas?

 

 

 

 

Might be worth adding a little talc or chalk dust.

 

 

[45157]

Good advice here on top ballast - but what do you use for cinder paths etc?

I'm already using 2mm Woodland Scenics ballast for my 4mm layout to keep the texture "fine"

but this means I need to go even finer for the "ash" areas between tracks.

I've acquired some real smokebox char, but even ground down, I'm finding it far too dark - any ideas?

 

Regards

 

Martin

 

Hi Martin

 

For my 7mm train set I use sieved (through a tea strainer) barbeque ash, it's light grey.

Because it is so fine I finish the area first with fine ballast and once completely dry I add the sieved ash and using a reasonably stiff brush spread it round.

The stiff brush is important as the intention is for the ash to fill the gaps between the ballast, not to cover the surface, but being to fine it will colour everything to a degree and with the brush you can vary the appearance to your liking.

Once the area is filled and all surplus ash removed I spray it over (from above, not at an angle) with Testors Dull Coat (outside, or well ventilated room that you can close the door on, as it seriously stinks) although I have not tried, I guess any spray matt varnish would be ok.

It has to be sprayed because the ash is so fine a wet brush just picks it up and you loose the smooth effect and the ash needs to be a thin layer or the varnish (the Testors anyway) will not seal it in one coat.

 

I have also used just the ash for roads by painting the area first with PVA and sprinkling through a tea strainer directly onto the wet PVA but again, being so fine it will show every brush mark in the glue.

It does however respond well to a second coat and a bit of sanding (medium paper) when fully dry.

 

I have attached a picture of the above proceedure used for a platform surface which hopefully shows the difference in texture between the track ballast and the treated ballast on the platform, perhaps also just showing the light grey of the ash mixed with the brown ballast.

 

 

As the saying goes "it works for me" but try it off the layout first.

Hope the above is of some use.

 

regards

Stewart

[darren01]

Good advice here on top ballast - but what do you use for cinder paths etc?

I'm already using 2mm Woodland Scenics ballast for my 4mm layout to keep the texture "fine"

but this means I need to go even finer for the "ash" areas between tracks.

I've acquired some real smokebox char, but even ground down, I'm finding it far too dark - any ideas?

 

Regards

 

Martin

 

HI

Have you looked at C+L yard ash and smoke box ash, i have use it on my layout Torrington.

Looks just right IMHO.

Darren01

[Gwiwer]

Back to the OP I think we have to acknowledge that each and every layout is different and so therefore will be the ballasting requirements.

 

We don't know (unless I missed something in my quick read-through) which area is being modelled, in which era nor in what scale. Answers to those questions can help us to give a more full and complete response.

 

In Australia there are import restrictions (and in some cases outright bans) on any soil or plant-derived material. Many ballast products have the requisite data lodged with AQIS who are responsible for enforcing those restrictions and are therefore allowed in through commercial channels. It can sometimes be a very different matter importing the same product in retail quantities by mail as I found when an order of Woodland Scenics was stopped, declared a banned material and had to be returned to sender (at my own cost). Persistence, providing proof that the product was already on sale in Australia (and therefore should have an import licence somewhere)and an exchange of emails with Woodland's technical people in the US finally got the package to me after I paid for gamma irradiation.

 

So importing Peco ballast might present difficulties if it has not met the requirements and this may be why it is not on general sale in Australia. By contrast I find that the widely-available and popular "Chuck's Ballast Supplies" does not offer a suitable size and colour for my BR-WR theme but would be ideal for Australian and many US applications.

 

I use mostly Woodland Scenics with a little Noch product here and there. Despite the "medium" being overscale for 00/HO I find that the "fine" is far too small so the medium it is. "Fine" is however great for creating paths and walkways.

 

My technique is to spread it dry, brush it into its required position, spray lightly with wet water and then with a 50:50 PVA and water mix. That works perfectly. There are other methods. Some modellers swear by the dropper method, some would use dilute PVA alone without pre-wetting. Others stick it with a range of other substances. Each to their own.

 

It can also pay to mix the dry ballast up a little to get exactly what you want. I use about 80% Medium Buff to 20% Medium Brown

 

For an idea of how that looks on the layout click the links in my signature. If I can be of any further help please ask.

[bike2steam]

What a lot of modellers unwittingly tend to do is add oversize ballast, prototypical railway ballast is graded in 1/2 inch, 1 inch, 2 inch, & 3 inch grades. 3 inch is only 1mm in 00, pre-war it was 2 inch max, 3 inch added later. The road bed being laid with the smaller at the bottom, to the bigger at the top, all on top of ash, which would have been spread to include the cess, I tend to lay the ash on my layouts, for cess, paths, sidings etc, before the ballast.

[Gwiwer]

3 inch is only 1mm in 00

 

Woodland Scenics "fine" is almost half that size where "medium" is almost double it. I guess we could try crushing the medium down a little but it seems like a lot of hard work.

[45157]

Woodland Scenics "fine" is almost half that size where "medium" is almost double it. I guess we could try crushing the medium down a little but it seems like a lot of hard work.

 

But, the model railway will be made for a long time, so it's worth the effort at the beginning to get the appearance you want.

 

Many years ago (20+) I worked as an maintenance electrician in stone quarries which supplied the then British Rail with ballast, and I am fairly sure I remember the screens used were 3" down, so perhaps a mixture of fine and medium would give a better appearance to your eye.

 

regards

Stewart

[craigwelsh]

Many years ago (20+) I worked as an maintenance electrician in stone quarries which supplied the then British Rail with ballast, and I am fairly sure I remember the screens used were 3" down, so perhaps a mixture of fine and medium would give a better appearance to your eye.

 

regards

Stewart

Its worth mixing colours if you use Woodland Scenics anyway as its far too uniform. Greenscenes ballast is much better for having a range of colours in each bag and also being a good size.

[Trog]

The road bed being laid with the smaller at the bottom, to the bigger at the top, all on top of ash, which would have been spread to include the cess,

 

 

Other way up, in traditional track the formation would be covered with either a layer of sand / mixed aggregate, or a layer of large stones known as pitching. The size of the pitching stones varies usually flatish and about a foot across. But I have dug out pitching stones as large as five or six feet across.

 

The bottom stone would then be laid on top of this, with smaller ballast being used between the sleepers as boxing in stone. Doing it this way up gives you the ease of working of the small ballast, while the larger lower ballast helps the track drain. This practice faded out over time but was latterly more common in tunnels, hence why 1 1/8" 28mm ballast is some times refered to as tunnel ballast. The last uses I am aware of, of standard size bottom stone under 28mm top stone on the National Rail network were in the early 2000's, in areas where manual track maintenance was thought to be more likely than tamping.

[Chinahand]

On my N Gauge layout I will be using Noch Fine (Premium) Ballast which is ultra fine and just about the closest to scale that I could find.

 

Having used Copydex in the past I can thoroughly recommend it for both fixing track down and for ballasting.

 

I am laying my track on 2 layers of 2mm thick laminated floor underlay. The first layer is glued down over the whole area of the boards and the second layer is then stuck down in track areas only. This gives excellent silent running as the bottom layer prevents any noise being transmittted to the board itself by any ballast overspiiling the track bed.

[54Strat]

When using Copydex for ballasting, does it require a wetting agent in the same way that one usually adds washing up liquid to the traditional PVA and water mix?

 

Paul.

[MikeTrice]

On my N Gauge layout I will be using Noch Fine (Premium) Ballast which is ultra fine and just about the closest to scale that I could find.

Do you have a product number for this please as it is not obvious from the 2011 catalogue which item you are referring to?

 

Thanks.

[Chinahand]

Hi Mike,

 

I don't have a 2011 Noch Catalogue but the references used on the Gaugemaster site are 95620 (Brown ) and 95640 (Light Grey). I mix these two shades together. Here's the link to the Gaugemaster page. Noch Ballast

[MikeTrice]

Hi Mike,

 

I don't have a 2011 Noch Catalogue but the references used on the Gaugemaster site are 95620 (Brown ) and 95640 (Light Grey). I mix these two shades together. Here's the link to the Gaugemaster page. Noch Ballast

Thanks. Have managed to identify it. It is actually Woodland Scenics fine ballast rebadged by Noch.

[Pete the Elaner]

When using Copydex for ballasting, does it require a wetting agent in the same way that one usually adds washing up liquid to the traditional PVA and water mix?

 

Paul.

 

Yes. I did exactly that & am very pleased with the results. One thing which I had noticed is that the ballast needs a really good soaking with the glue/water/wetting agent mix. You can always go back & give it another soaking later. You will not need to pre-spray it second time around.

 

I recommend trying it on a small section of test track first.

[bike2steam]

I can recommend one of these to help 'form', and tidy up the ballast bed.

http://www.argos.co....chTerms=9245488

I use it without the attachments, it makes the job much quicker.

[45157]

I can recommend one of these to help 'form', and tidy up the ballast bed.

http://www.argos.co....chTerms=9245488

I use it without the attachments, it makes the job much quicker.

 

Recommendation fully agreed, I have had mine for some time (got it from one of those gadget shops) and being so small find it very useful for keeping the immediate work area clear of dust and filings.

 

Using it to clean up excess ballast would, IMHO, be a bit risky as it's not really powerful enough to suck up poorly glued ballast or any jammed under/between rails, I always "borrow" the Dyson with a popsock over the nozzle and whatever ballast survives I know is well and truly stuck and will not cause any problems later.

 

regards

Stewart

[Tel2010]

Hi all

Copydex glue sounds a good idea,but seems to be expensive,at least where iv'e looked,if covering a large area.So does anyone know of good reasonable suppler of the gule.Thanks

Tel