Nitric Acid TTA tanks

[Pugsley]

Would anyone have access to a copy of the diagram for these wagons, please? I'm trying to find out a little more information about them for a scratchbuilding project. The underframes look like standard TTA chassis, so the dimensions for these isn't a problem, but I'm struggling to find the barrel diameter.

 

Unfortunately, the scanned diagrams available on the 'net do not cover these particular wagons. Having done a bit of digging this afternoon, I think that these wagons used the barrels from TRL51410-51414, diag TT022B, can anybody confirm this please?

 

And now for the really long shot, if anyone has a photo of the top of these wagons, I'd really like to see it!

 

Also, if anyone has a dimensioned drawing of Oleo 1'8" hydraulic buffers that I could look at, that would again be much appreciated.

 

TIA

 

Edit - Just checked one of my references, and the Nitric Acid tankers only went to 51953. The diagram number is TT022H.

[PhilJ W]

There is a photograph in 'Private Owner Wagons in Colour' by David Ratcliffe, page 72 (ISBN978-0-7110-3365-8)

[Pugsley]

Thanks Phil, I've got that one, there's also a couple of photos in the Cheona air braked wagons Vol 3. I've got just about every photo of them I can find, but sadly no dimensions, of which the barrel length and diameter are the most crucial.

 

For a small fleet of wagons, they've been photographed quite a lot!

[eastwestdivide]

Any use? Early 1983 I think, at Warrington

 

 

You also mentioned chlorine wagons in the 514xx series - was this (51421) the same diagram as your 51410-14? July 1985, Rugby:

 

[Pugsley]

Thanks E-W-D, I must confess that I'd already plundered that picture from your fotopic site!

 

I don't suppose you took a photo of the one to the left of it, which is one of the Gloucester Pedestal fitted ones (either 949 or 950) did you, please? It's a little outside the scope of what I was doing, but it'd be interesting to see one in that livery.

 

As for the Chlorine tanker, it's not the same diagram as 410-414, these were Hydrocyanic Acid tanks, with a much larger barrel, according to the diagram I've got. However, it is of use as the chassis appears to be virtually identical to those used under 51948/51-52, so thanks again! Of the 4 equipped with parabolic spring suspension, 953 is the odd one out as it has a chassis of a different appearance.

 

I do now have the diagram for these wagons from a different source, so I'll be able to confirm if my hypothesis about the re-use of the barrels from 410 to 414 is correct. Certainly the chassis from TRL51410 and 411 are alive and well at the Langollen railway, but the barrels are long gone.

 

I'll stop now, as it's probably getting a bit boring..

 

(Edited for factual inaccuracy - repeat after me, I will not post facts from memory whilst at work, I will not post facts from memory...)

[Jim Martin]

Have you thought of PM-ing Paul Bartlett (hmrspaul on RMWeb) and asking him? I posted a similar request concerning some Associated Octel tanks some time ago and he was very helpful.

 

Jim

[beast66606]

Any use? Early 1983 I think, at Warrington

 

100% Warrington

[eastwestdivide]

Thanks E-W-D, I must confess that I'd already plundered that picture from your fotopic site!

 

I don't suppose you took a photo of the one to the left of it, which is one of the Gloucester Pedestal fitted ones (either 949 or 950) did you, please?

 

 

Sorry, no. PM me if you'd like a higher res version of the above photos.

 

I'll stop now, as it's probably getting a bit boring..

What?? just getting interesting. I never knew there was so much re-use and rebuilding of those specialist tanks. Makes sense I suppose, as some would have needed special materials to contain the various nasties involved.

[Pugsley]

Sorry, no. PM me if you'd like a higher res version of the above photos.

Will do, thanks.

 

What?? just getting interesting. I never knew there was so much re-use and rebuilding of those specialist tanks. Makes sense I suppose, as some would have needed special materials to contain the various nasties involved.

Well, you did ask...

 

Having compared the diagrams for the HCN tanks and the official diagram for the Nitric Acid tanks, the barrel dimensions are exactly the same in both length and width, so I'm fairly sure that they are the same. Quite why the underframes were swapped is a mystery - both of the ones at the Langollen Railway are fitted with air brakes and parabolic springs, so that can't be the reason. The only thing I can think of is that the underframes of the donor wagons were in better condition.

 

The chassis of 51953 was definitely from a Chlorine tank, as the others may have been, but I haven't been able to track down a diagram, or any details, for the wagons in the series between 51431 and 51449, but as this series is in between Chlorine and Anhydrous Ammonia tanks, it is possible that they were Chlorine tanks similar to the picture posted above.

 

What I have found out is that, despite the difference in appearance, all of the underframes were built by Charles Roberts, just that 51953 was of a later design, being a couple of years newer than the others, I originally thought it might have been built by Pickering, Wishaw.

 

That's everything I know about these wagons now! I just need to get on with making the model...

[davefreight]

Hi everybody

 

Thought I might just say a word now that this thread has been brought to my attention.

 

The details provided in my IA book on PO Wagons regarding TRL 51948 are correct. I did not 'suggest' that the wagon was built from the chassis of HCN tank TRL 51440 and the barrel of ex-glycol tank TRL 51224, this is a statement of fact. The ancestry of this small fleet of six wagons is known in every detail. All had former glycol tank barrels married to either ex HCN underframes or, in the case of 51953, to a former chlorine tank underframe.

 

The details pertaining to these vehicles were given to me back in 1983 by UKF's Transport Manager whilst we were chatting over a cup of coffee in his office at Ince & Elton.

 

As I have already explained in my book UKF found themselves in need of a small fleet of nitric acid tanks that would be able to negotiate the restricted clearance at the unloading siding inside Salwick. The wagons needed to have stainless steel barrels and be air-braked, so that they could operate via the Speedlink network, hence the fitting of suitable barrels from redundant vacuum braked glycol tanks to spare air-braked underframes.

 

Furthermore, there was no wagon series TRL 51431-49 which is erroneously quote in an earlier posting in this thread. The wagons allocated the TOPS numbers TRL 51431-34 are simply the last four of a batch of 25 chlorine tanks built by Chas Roberts for ICI in 1965. These four were amongst several to be renumbered in the TRL 511xx series after conversion to sulphuric acid tanks and presumably do not feature in the wagon spotter number books on their TRL514xx numbers. Wagons numbered TRL 51435-49 comprised a batch of 15 HCN tanks built that same year, also by Chas Roberts, also for ICI.

 

As stated in the aforementioned caption, TRL 51440 was a HCN tank - when I go into print I do not make stuff up.

 

As to the other numbers quoted in the posting dated October 26; that is 410-414, and then TRL 51410 and 51411, perhaps I can clear that up as well.

 

Let us get TRL 51410 and TRL 51411 out of the way first: these are the first two chlorine tanks in the batch of 25 built for ICI in 1965 which I mention above. When built this batch were vacuum braked and numbered A410 to A434 becoming TRL 51410-34 on TOPS. In later years they were air-braked, some then becoming sulphuric acid tanks whilst the others remained in chlorine traffic later for BP Chemicals and then Hays. None of the wagons from this batch donated anything to the 'Baby Nitrics'.

 

As to the numbers 410-414 which are also mentioned, well these could refer to all manner of vehicles. However, in the context of this discussion it is probably worth noting that these were amongst the ICI fleet numbers carried by the batch of HCN tanks that subsequently became TRL 51435-49 on TOPS.

 

Oh, and by the way, the chlorine tank underframe reused for TRL 51953 came from TRL 51678.

 

As you will probably gather I am a little irritated by this thread and would just wish that members not post a bunch of mistaken and misleading information.

 

David Ratcliffe

[Pugsley]

David,

I'd like to start by thanking you for clearing up the details of these particular wagons.

 

However, as much as this thread may have irritated you, the tone of your response has also irritated me somewhat. Doing my own research into these wagons has thrown up inconsistencies in the data, and how was I to know that the information that you had came first hand from the Transport Manager at Ince?

 

The word 'suggest', in the email you refer to, was used as I did not know at the time what was correct, having found differing information. I'm sure you'll appreciate that not everything in books is always 100% correct, and it seems that offical BR diagrams are also incorrect at times. I would like you to re-read what I've written in earlier postings and point out just where I described what I'd found so far as 'fact'.

 

My statement about the number series TRL51431-49 is perfectly correct - the book that I have detailing wagon numbers doesn't have anything listed for the series of numbers between 51431 and 51449. Thus my assertion that I didn't have any details of the wagons with those numbers is completely correct and not erroneous, as you have suggested.

 

Looking at the BR diagram books on the Barrowmore MRG website, the index pages list 51435-449 as diagram TT022B. Looking at that particular diagram in the same file, it lists the registration as 51410-51414, and gives the barrel dimensions as 2676 wide, 7620 long, the same as the TT022H (and J) diagram. This, coupled with the existence of the barrel-less chassis of 51410 and 51411 led me to the wrong conclusion.

 

Unfortunately, those of us who do not have the benefit of first hand information have to rely upon what they can find out themselves, from an array of sources that may, or may not, be accurate, including official BR information.

[davefreight]

Martin

 

Thank you for your reply and I hope that the additional information I have provided on the 'Baby Nitrics' is of use.

 

As you say not all the info in books is 100% correct and there are some errors in my PO Wagons book but if I had been unsure of the antecedents of TRL 51948 then I would have indicated that in the caption.

 

I must still take issue with you about there being a number series TRL 51431-49, since referring to them in this way might suggest that they were a coherent single block of number allocated to one particular wagon design when, as I have already explained, they were not.

 

David Ratcliffe

[Pugsley]

David,

Yes, the information is very much of use, thank you.

 

That, coupled with photographs and information from other sources, means I now have virtually all the information I need to model these vehicles. The only information that now eludes me is the diameter of the donor tank - the TT007C diagram only gives the total width over ladders. Having done some quick mock-ups in a drawing program, I think that it was around 7'6" diameter, but can't be sure.

 

Your information also clears up some of the inconsistencies I've found in terms of the BR diagrams, with regard to barrel dimensions, as mentioned above.

 

I can see where you are coming from with regards to referring to those numbers as a series, but it is a series of numbers, albeit spread across differing types of wagon. I guess we're both correct, it's just a question of semantics.

[davefreight]

Martin

 

Unfortunately I cannot help with the diameter of the tank, the only other details I can find for the Baby Nitrics tell me they were 46 tonne glw, 100 psi pressure discharge with a carrying capacity of 32.9 tonnes, gross capacity 33.5 hectolitres.

 

When they were cobbled together the barrels appear to have gained additional lagging, hence the repositioning of the ladder to the end. Presumably because nitric has a relatively low boiling point the aim would be to transport it without much change in its temperature, although this is just guesswork on my part.

 

David R

[Pugsley]

David,

Again, thank you for the information, especially the part about the extra lagging.

 

I think I'll just have to mock up a series of different barrel diameters in my drawing package and go with the one that looks most right, based on approximations from photographs.

 

Thanks again for your help.

[Gazza]

Hi all 

as any one got a picture of the nitric Acid warning label just above the sole bar the square one on the upright panel. Or does anyone knows what it says 

thanks 

 

[eastwestdivide]

19 hours ago, Gazza said:

a picture of the nitric Acid warning label just above the sole bar the square one on the upright panel

Best I can do from my original scan (of the pic in my post from 11 years ago):

 

Easy to read is 

WARNING
NITRIC ACID

CORROSIVE

but as for the rest, you're welcome to Photoshop it to death to try and make the wording clearer.

[Scottish Modeller]

On 31/10/2010 at 19:01, Pugsley said:

David,

Again, thank you for the information, especially the part about the extra lagging.

 

I think I'll just have to mock up a series of different barrel diameters in my drawing package and go with the one that looks most right, based on approximations from photographs.

 

Thanks again for your help.

Hi Pugsley,

 

When you asked this on DEMU Forum - Paul Harrison said he would send you scans from the diagram book he had.

 

Which ones did he send or did he forget?

 

Thanks

Phil H

[Pugsley]

Hi Phil, he sent a diagram for TT022H, I can't see the year of issue on it anywhere, however.  Like every other diagram I've ever seen for that wagon, the overall width quoted is 2676 mm, which I think the barrel diameter of the wagons before they were converted.

Edited April 24, 2021 by Pugsley