Kadee Couplers

[DutyDruid]

On 07/04/2019 at 08:11, 47137 said:

 

Any joy?

 

 

Done, works - in principle at least.  

 

My original lash-up:

 

The completed "new" assembly:

 

Against the height gauge:

 

All I need to do now is get the time to put it on the Club layout that is set up for Kadee couplers and try it out...  (job for Thursday I think)

[47137]

Excellent! And if you decide to sell the model one day, you can return it to its original condition and no-one will be any the wiser.

 

- Richard.

[dj_crisp]

I'm just planning on how to install kadee uncouplers on the layout. Im going to attempt to use some standard magnets and a kadee 309.

 

I just wondered if anyone has wired up a 309 and how they did it?

 

Also does the higher ampage rule out using DCC for switching it on unless I use relays? Tbh I'm probably going to try a conventional approach and get them working first then think about DCC control later

 

Cheers

Will 

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, dj_crisp said:

I'm just planning on how to install kadee uncouplers on the layout. Im going to attempt to use some standard magnets and a kadee 309.

 

I just wondered if anyone has wired up a 309 and how they did it?

 

Also does the higher ampage rule out using DCC for switching it on unless I use relays? Tbh I'm probably going to try a conventional approach and get them working first then think about DCC control later

 

Cheers

Will 

The #309 uncoupler is approx 8 ohms resistance, so with the recommended supply of 16vDC that would be 2A.

It depends how you intend use it, but my suggestion is just a push button that is rated at more than 2A DC

[Jeff Smith]

Just a word of warning regarding relatively large permanent or electro-magnets used with UK rolling stock.  In my experience in O-16.5 using OO wagon wheels, many have magnetic axles, and some older ones have magnetic wheels.  These are attracted to the magnets and can cause uncommanded uncoupling and hesitation.  Some people apparently can use the very small magnets between the sleepers.  I had to use non-magnetic Hornby wagon wheels re-mounted on brass axles......

 

[melmerby]

18 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

Just a word of warning regarding relatively large permanent or electro-magnets used with UK rolling stock.  In my experience in O-16.5 using OO wagon wheels, many have magnetic axles, and some older ones have magnetic wheels.  These are attracted to the magnets and can cause uncommanded uncoupling and hesitation.  Some people apparently can use the very small magnets between the sleepers.  I had to use non-magnetic Hornby wagon wheels re-mounted on brass axles......

 

I've found the between the #322 between the rails magnets to be OK in that situation.

As long as you don't mind them in the four foot!

[dj_crisp]

Thanks. I think the simple push button is probably the easiest approach.

I shall hopefully have a play with permanent magnets later this week and see how I get on with them.

 

Cheers 

Will 

[DutyDruid]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

The #309 uncoupler is approx 8 ohms resistance, so with the recommended supply of 16vDC that would be 2A.

It depends how you intend use it, but my suggestion is just a push button that is rated at more than 2A DC

 

The way we have done this on Nictun Borrud is with push button switches which actuate relays rated at >5A.  

 

Elliott

[JZ]

Just started to put together some H0n3 couplers. Around 10 minutes for the first one, but it would be more helpful if I had an extra hand and fingers the size of tooth picks. Only six more to do, the first was for the gauge, so at least I could use the block as a jig for that.

[Sir TophamHatt]

I know this is perhaps going to be a wide open question but is there a standard "close coupling" Kadee to use?

 

Bought a Roco 64189 RailJet 4-coach pack, which has couplings similar to the Bachmann S-Stock (or Voyager) in that it's just a stick between the coaches.

 

Thinking for ease of use, I could upgrade these to Kadees but my number 19's were way too long!

 

Default coupling:

 

Kadee number 19:

 

Yes, I know I have them the wrong way up   Just did it for the photo.

 

Cheers

Edited June 27, 2019 by Sir TophamHatt

[melmerby]

First question

Why do you want Kadees in a fixed rake?

Second

What is wrong with the original coupling?

 

The shortest NEM Kadees are #17, which I can't see working with that rolling stock.

 

[D9020 Nimbus]

If you want really close coupling you need a rigid coupler that will ensure the linkage works correctly. Kadees aren't really suitable for this, nor are tension-locks. Roco close couplings are probably best for a fixed rake.

[Sir TophamHatt]

22 minutes ago, melmerby said:

First question

Why do you want Kadees in a fixed rake?

Second

What is wrong with the original coupling?

 

The shortest NEM Kadees are #17, which I can't see working with that rolling stock.

 

It won't always be on the layout so I can imagine over time, pulling the little clips out of the pocket (when packing away in a box) will end up damaging the pocket so it doesn't swing out when going round corners.

It was just a thought but if number 17 are the shortest, looks like I'll just be taking care when putting the train away!

[DutyDruid]

1 hour ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

If you want really close coupling you need a rigid coupler that will ensure the linkage works correctly. Kadees aren't really suitable for this, nor are tension-locks. Roco close couplings are probably best for a fixed rake.

Tend to agree.

 

The "close couplers" that Hornby provide are indeed Roco, or you can get the Bachmann "air pipe" couplers that they provide with their Mk 1 coaches which are equally short, the only difference is that the uncoupling with these is by removing the air pipes from one of the NEM pockets.

[DutyDruid]

Not strictly speaking Kadee but a bit of an enabler, I came across this at the Bristol Show in May: https://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-103641/symoba-120-nem-362-coupling-conversion-start-set.htm

 

I'm looking at the system as a possible way to fit NEM pockets to the motor ends of some kitbuilt (DC Kits and MTK) EMUs that we use on Nictun Borrud so that I can fit easily removable Kadees.

 

Anyone have any experiences?

[RFS]

1 hour ago, DutyDruid said:

Tend to agree.

 

The "close couplers" that Hornby provide are indeed Roco, or you can get the Bachmann "air pipe" couplers that they provide with their Mk 1 coaches which are equally short, the only difference is that the uncoupling with these is by removing the air pipes from one of the NEM pockets.

 

Hornby's Roco couplers are slightly longer than the original Roco version. They are just the right size for connecting Bachmann MK1s for example, but with Hornby's Maunsells or 59' Bulleids they leave a gap. The shorter, original Roco coupling fits the bill perfectly for these however. 

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

It won't always be on the layout so I can imagine over time, pulling the little clips out of the pocket (when packing away in a box) will end up damaging the pocket so it doesn't swing out when going round corners.

It was just a thought but if number 17 are the shortest, looks like I'll just be taking care when putting the train away!

If the pockets are indeed to NEM spec, then Roco couplers would possibly do the job, keeping the rake close whilst on the layout but separable just by lifting.

[47137]

5 hours ago, DutyDruid said:

Not strictly speaking Kadee but a bit of an enabler, I came across this at the Bristol Show in May: https://www.dccsupplies.com/item-p-103641/symoba-120-nem-362-coupling-conversion-start-set.htm

 

I'm looking at the system as a possible way to fit NEM pockets to the motor ends of some kitbuilt (DC Kits and MTK) EMUs that we use on Nictun Borrud so that I can fit easily removable Kadees.

 

Anyone have any experiences?

 

I fitted Symoba cams to a Lima coach and was sufficiently impressed to buy a few more pairs for future projects.

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/entry/22126-br-mk1-bsk-lima-modified/

 

There are two lengths of NEM pocket in the Symoba system - the short ones lock the coupler into place, the standard ones behave like a normal NEM socket.

Symoba do an installation jig and this is a great help in getting the fronts of the pockets the correct distance behind the buffer heads as well as at the correct height above the rails. If you are committed to Kadees and nothing else, you might optimise the horizontal offset to suit (say) the Kadee #18, i.e. bring the socket outwards towards the buffers. If you put the NEM pockets in the NEM362 location, you find a #18 is a bit too short and a #19 is a bit too long.

 

Then again, there is no great benefit in fitting Kadees into pockets on close coupling mechanisms. You would be better off with a pair of close couplers. When you have the pockets in the proper NEM362 locations then a pair of Fleischmann Profi heads will give a very tight coupling with the buffer heads touching on a straight track, but some bogie vehicles will not pull apart far enough on tighter curves. Some vehicles will refuse to couple up at all because there isn't enough free play. Roco close couplers will ease this by half a millimetre or so (which helps a great deal), and the Roco "universal" coupler will ease this a bit more. You need to choose a coupler with minimal horizontal play and this rules out Kadees.

 

- Richard.

[Sol]

IMO. Kadee are perfect for when there is lot of making up & breaking up trains with much shunting.

 

Ron

Edited June 28, 2019 by Sol
added signature

[DutyDruid]

11 hours ago, 47137 said:

Symoba do an installation jig and this is a great help in getting the fronts of the pockets the correct distance behind the buffer heads as well as at the correct height above the rails. If you are committed to Kadees and nothing else, you might optimise the horizontal offset to suit (say) the Kadee #18, i.e. bring the socket outwards towards the buffers. If you put the NEM pockets in the NEM362 location, you find a #18 is a bit too short and a #19 is a bit too long.

Thanks Richard, this bit particularly informative.

 

NB is an exhibition layout and one of the signature moves I have been able to perform since fitting it with kadee coils is to run 2 x Kirk Kit 2BIL units into the main platform, uncouple them and then run them out separately.  We also have an MTK 2HAP and a DC Kits 2HAP and I would like to do the same with them.  At the moment I have to run them in with the motor bogies at the outer ends of the train because I haven't been able to fit any sort of Kadee to the motor coach ends - there simply isn't enough material in the driving ends of the coaches to make any sort of attachment - but this causes problems at the fiddle yard end of the layout which is cassette based.  Reading your piece quoted above has given me a couple of ideas for a way forward.

 

Elliott

[DutyDruid]

On 26/03/2019 at 11:40, 47137 said:

I've stumbled upon a possible solution for installing Kadee couplers into Bachmann stock with the NEM pockets at a non-standard height.

 

1) The Roco universal coupler in the height-adjustable version. Roco part number 40396:

https://www.roco.cc/en/product/22611-0-0-0-0-0-0-003005-0/products.html

 

 

16 hours ago, RFS said:

 

Hornby's Roco couplers are slightly longer than the original Roco version. They are just the right size for connecting Bachmann MK1s for example, but with Hornby's Maunsells or 59' Bulleids they leave a gap. The shorter, original Roco coupling fits the bill perfectly for these however. 

 

When I get my hands on my Bulleid 59' rake I will have a go at fitting them with the Roco universal couplers and the the Hornby version and see just what the difference is, of course it's Kadees on the ends of the rakes...

 

I've discovered that if you use the shorter NEM Kadees between separate coach sets it does close the gap right up although it makes separating the sets a tad challenging.

 

Elliott

[JZ]

When Hornby get around to sending my model shop correct pairs of brakes, and of course when the compo arrives, I will be using Keen Buckeyes between coaches and Kadees at the outside.

[Sir TophamHatt]

16 hours ago, melmerby said:

If the pockets are indeed to NEM spec, then Roco couplers would possibly do the job, keeping the rake close whilst on the layout but separable just by lifting.

 

Just checking, we're talking about these:

Hornby R8220.

 

There is one like this that came in the bag of bits with the (Roco) loco.

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

Just checking, we're talking about these:

 

Hornby R8220.

 

There is one like this that came in the bag of bits with the (Roco) loco.

That's the one.

The Roco original ( #40270) should be about 2mm shorter than the Hornby version, apart from that they are the same.

depending on clearance with the vehicles you can use 2x Hornby, or 1x Hornby & 1x Roco, or 2x Roco between each pair of coaches

(Most of mine are 1 + 1)

Roco 40270:

 

 

Edited June 28, 2019 by melmerby

[47137]

19 hours ago, DutyDruid said:

When I get my hands on my Bulleid 59' rake I will have a go at fitting them with the Roco universal couplers and the the Hornby version and see just what the difference is, of course it's Kadees on the ends of the rakes...

 

For clarity: you can choose Roco close couplers or Roco universal couplers, the terminology is a bit easy to confuse:

The Roco close coupler is the design illustrated and referenced by Melmerby.

The Roco universal coupler is their own tension lock style coupler: http://www.gaugemaster.com/item_details.asp?code=RC40395&style=&strType=&Mcode=Roco+40395

 

(Edit: I discovered the "universal coupler" by accident when I bought a s/h wagon with a pair fitted. Put one of them on another wagon, and tried them out. I like them, possibly because the overall effect with cams is good and they stay together on my gradients, but I only use them within a couple of rakes. I want to convert my entire fleet to them and move away from Kadees because I like the close coupling, but I have 6 or 8 useful models with Kadees which will be difficult to convert.)

 

- Richard.

Edited June 29, 2019 by 47137