Kadee Couplers

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, melmerby said:

That's the one.

The Roco original ( #40270) should be about 2mm shorter than the Hornby version, apart from that they are the same.

depending on clearance with the vehicles you can use 2x Hornby, or 1x Hornby & 1x Roco, or 2x Roco between each pair of coaches

(Most of mine are 1 + 1)

Roco 40270:

 

 

1+1 is a good option, but if you have a layout where the stock can be reversed, it would become a mess as sometimes you'd end up with 2 long ones to couple up, leaving a gap. But if two short couplings together, then they will either won't couple or or cause buffer locking.

 

[ovbulleid]

Can anyone advise me on the best way to fit kadee couplings to the older Bachmann carriages which don’t have NEM pockets? 

 

Im a big fan of the Hornby close couplers- I have them fitted on my Pullman and maunsell rakes where they are reliable and discrete. The biggest problem I have is that when I put carriages back in the box they sometimes push the plastic lining and get distorted, sometimes to the point where they can’t be used again. 

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, ovbulleid said:

Can anyone advise me on the best way to fit kadee couplings to the older Bachmann carriages which don’t have NEM pockets? 

 

Im a big fan of the Hornby close couplers- I have them fitted on my Pullman and maunsell rakes where they are reliable and discrete. The biggest problem I have is that when I put carriages back in the box they sometimes push the plastic lining and get distorted, sometimes to the point where they can’t be used again. 

 

I haven't fitted any to Bachmann coaches (yet!) but I have fitted them to a Queen Mary brake van whch has old style coach bogies with a tension lock coupling.

I normally use a #147 (or another similar from that range) and mount it on a sutable piece of plastic card affixed to the bogie instead of the tension lock

Sometimes there is enough plastic at a suitable height to cobble a fixing direct to the bogie, without using any extra plastic.

 

[ejstubbs]

As Melmerby says, this sort of thing usually requires a combination of a bit of work on the bogie to take one or another of the #242, #252 or #262 gear boxes, and the judicious choice of one of the #14x series whisker couplers to achieve the required coupler head height and coupling distance.  What works best is going to depend on the particular layout of the underside of the coach and its bogies.

 

This is how I fit Kadees to the Bachmann LMS bogies:

• Remove the TLC
• Cut 6mm wide slot in coupling end of bogie as far back as the level section over axle, and trim ~1mm off outer corners
• Make a T-shaped platform out of 40thou plastikard: 20mm wide, 10mm deep with cutouts 3mm deep by 7mm wide each side
• Offer up a Kadee #262 gear box and drill & tap a hole for a 2-56 machine screw (using the Kadee #246 tap and drill kit)
• Fit a Kadee #148 whisker coupler to a #262 gear box with the lid of the gear box to the top
• Attach the gear box to the platform with a 3/16" 2-56 button head machine screw
• Canopy glue the platform to the underside of bogie so that gear box opening is flush with the end of the bogie

The finished result looks like this:

 

 

Not particularly attractive (though no worse IMO than the TLC it replaces) but it achieves the desired result in terms of Kadee coupling operation.

 

TBH if you like the way that the Hornby close couplers work on your coaches, and the only issue you have with them is that they foul the plastic inlay in the boxes the coaches came in, I'd be inclined to perform a bit of surgery on the plastic inlays, rather than the coaches...

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, ejstubbs said:

As Melmerby says, this sort of thing usually requires a combination of a bit of work on the bogie to take one or another of the #242, #252 or #262 gear boxes, and the judicious choice of one of the #14x series whisker couplers to achieve the required coupler head height and coupling distance.  What works best is going to depend on the particular layout of the underside of the coach and its bogies.

 

 

Are you buying extra gear boxes in addition to that supplied with the #14x series ?

I've managed to get away with just the supplied gear box (#252 IIRC) although sometimes needing a bit of "fettling" to get it to fit on my various Kadee installs.

[john new]

For a start with Kadees from zero obviously I need to buy the height setting jig and some couplings and mounts. However,  is the best route forward from zero getting the tester set (Amazon £35.50) plus height setter as the start point or several packs of bits? 

 

My thought is individual packs for UK stock is likely to be better as the tester set mentions things like Talgo converters which are presumably for non-UK rolling stock.

 

Which numbered packs would be best to start with and are any of the other tools etc., from either the tester (or the much more expensive starter) set also needed.

 

I will plough through this thread and see if this has been answered already but 30+ pages is daunting!

Edited September 2, 2019 by john new

[JZ]

Has anyone used the new #705 coupler yet. Although designed for H0n3, it comes ready assembled and is  smaller than the standard ones, nearer to #153. IT IS NOT NEM fitting, before anyone says.

[Tony Cane]

31 minutes ago, john new said:

For a start with Kadees from zero obviously I need to buy the height setting jig and some couplings and mounts. However,  is the best route forward from zero getting the tester set (Amazon £35.50) plus height setter as the start point or several packs of bits? 

 

My thought is individual packs for UK stock is likely to be better as the tester set mentions things like Talgo converters which are presumably for non-UK rolling stock.

 

Which numbered packs would be best to start with and are any of the other tools etc., from the either tester (or the much more expensive starter) set also needed.

 

I will plough through this thread and see if this has been answered already but 30+ pages is daunting!

Hi John

 

For Stock with buffers the "standard" Kadee couplings are not really suitable, being intended for American types.

For stock with buffers the NEM adapter Kadees are the most useful, type numbers are 17 to 19 with the length being the difference.

Types 17 and 18 are mostly used, 19 may be required on coaches.

Even when stock without a NEM socket this type is still the best to fit. search for NEM Kadee on Google for examples of installations.

While the height gauge is useful, one can easily be made, and you are no trying to be compatible with other users stock.

You will need the pliers to adjust the dropper height, there are similar pliers to the Kadee ones,used for jewelry  that may be less expensive. Search for Looping pliers

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forming-bending-looping-concave-Prestige/dp/B00MMU1384/ref=asc_df_B00MMU1384/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=226152056294&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11068838500643165353&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045935&hvtargid=pla-420861105780&psc=1

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Steps-Wire-Looping-Plier-Bead-Craft-Wire-Wrap-Jewelry/332934394408?hash=item4d846fb228:g:EkgAAOSwux5YMnYi

[melmerby]

21 minutes ago, Tony Cane said:

Hi John

 

For Stock with buffers the "standard" Kadee couplings are not really suitable, being intended for American types.

For stock with buffers the NEM adapter Kadees are the most useful, type numbers are 17 to 19 with the length being the difference.

Types 17 and 18 are mostly used, 19 may be required on coaches.

Even when stock without a NEM socket this type is still the best to fit. search for NEM Kadee on Google for examples of installations.

While the height gauge is useful, one can easily be made, and you are no trying to be compatible with other users stock.

You will need the pliers to adjust the dropper height, there are similar pliers to the Kadee ones,used for jewelry  that may be less expensive. Search for Looping pliers

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Forming-bending-looping-concave-Prestige/dp/B00MMU1384/ref=asc_df_B00MMU1384/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=226152056294&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=11068838500643165353&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9045935&hvtargid=pla-420861105780&psc=1

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-Steps-Wire-Looping-Plier-Bead-Craft-Wire-Wrap-Jewelry/332934394408?hash=item4d846fb228:g:EkgAAOSwux5YMnYi

Not in my experience. See also EJStubbs fitting on a Bachmann LMS bogie a few posts above, which is similar to how I have been doing it.

I've tried several ways and my default way without NEM mounts is to use a #242 box and a #14X series coupler.

 

 

[john new]

Thanks guys. Will sort out an order for experimenting.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

 

While the height gauge is useful, one can easily be made, and you are no trying to be compatible with other users stock.

How do you know that?

 

It seems like poor practice to not make it standard, unless the owner is sure that it's never going to be used, with other peoples Kadee stock. It's most annoying when people have accidentally made their stock incompatible and stock, easily becomes uncoupled, if it couples at all.

Sometimes, its a pleasure to borrow/loan stock amongst friends, even if it wasn't the original intention. Those with similar interests can come out of the woodwork.

[D9020 Nimbus]

To US Modellers, a "Talgo truck" is a truck (bogie) with the coupler mounted on it, rather than on the body of the vehicle concerned. Hence the "Talgo adapter".

[john new]

9 minutes ago, D9020 Nimbus said:

To US Modellers, a "Talgo truck" is a truck (bogie) with the coupler mounted on it, rather than on the body of the vehicle concerned. Hence the "Talgo adapter".

Thank you. I had assumed it was something to do with those Spanish(?) passenger vehicles. So they would be useful in that case for UK coaching stock and any bogie freight vehicles I buy.

 

What are the whisker couplings in that sample set?

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, john new said:

What are the whisker couplings in that sample set?

 

The full list of contents of that set is on the Kadee web site.  The list of whisker couplers & gear boxes is:

 

141 Whisker® Long Underset - Metal - One Pair
142 Whisker® Medium Overset - Metal - One Pair
143 Whisker® Short Centerset - Metal - One Pair
144 Whisker® Short Underset - Metal - One Pair
145 Whisker® Short Overset - Metal - One Pair
146 Whisker® Long Centerset - Metal - One Pair
147 Whisker® Medium Underset - Metal - One Pair
148 Whisker® Medium Centerset - Metal - One Pair
149 Whisker® Long Overset - Metal - One Pair
158 Whisker® "Scale" Medium Centerset - Metal - One Pair
242 Whisker® Snap-Together Gear Box: - One Sprue
Work with all Couplers included in Test Kit and are standard with Whisker® couplers.
252 Small Whisker® Snap-Together Gear Box: - One Sprue
Work with Only Whisker® Couplers. The 252 is the Whisker® equivalent to the 30-Series Gear Box.

 

The set also includes the height gauge, you don't need to order it separately.

Edited September 2, 2019 by ejstubbs

[john new]

I saw that list, my query is what makes a whisker different and is it compatible with other non-whisker Kadees? I know what Kadees do, but as a newbie not what the different types are.

[ejstubbs]

On 16/08/2019 at 09:50, melmerby said:

Are you buying extra gear boxes in addition to that supplied with the #14x series ?

 

Sorry, didn't notice that the thread had moved on since I last posted a couple of weeks ago.  Yes, I've bought and used #252 and #262 gear boxes.  The #262s are handy (fairly obviously) if width is an issue.  The #252s are useful if there's something under the chassis behind the buffer beam that would make a #242 stick out too far.  I've used them quite a lot on Horny wagons with the old clip-on style TLCs (not NEM): I cut away the TLC clip mounting and the #252 goes in nicely without requiring anything ales to be surgeried away.

 

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

 

5 hours ago, Tony Cane said:

Even when stock without a NEM socket this type is still the best to fit. search for NEM Kadee on Google for examples of installations.

Not in my experience. See also EJStubbs fitting on a Bachmann LMS bogie a few posts above, which is similar to how I have been doing it.

 

Completely agree.  The practice of screwing NEM couplers in by the fishtail is barbaric IMO - no better than screwing #5s directly on the chassis.  It also means that you're relying on the pivot just behind the knuckle, and worse still the pivot of the knuckle itself, to provide the necessary flex for coupled stock going round curves.  Maybe not to horrible if your curves are accurately scaled to the prototype, but for those of us who have anything smaller than an aircraft hangar to house their layout, it's just wrong.  If there's no NEM pocket then that's what the whisker couplers are for.

 

[ejstubbs]

17 minutes ago, john new said:

I saw that list, my query is what makes a whisker different and is it compatible with other non-whisker Kadees? I know what Kadees do, but as a newbie not what the different types are.

 

What you may not be aware of is that Kadee couplers are designed to pivot around a mount behind the buffer beam of the vehicle. That's how they accommodate the change in angle between vehicles when they go round curves.  Without that pivot, the knuckle would end up taking all the off-centre and sideways forces involved.  Given that the knuckle itself is quite a precision mechanism (witness, for example, the tribulations that people experience trying to replace a detached knuckle spring) it's best to keep them doing what they do best - taking pulling and pushing forces purely along the axis of the coupler arm.  (See also my mini-rant above about screwing Kadees directly to vehicle chassis.)

 

Pivoting is all very well, but you need the couplers to centre themselves when they're uncoupled in order for them to line up properly to give you auto-coupling when you introduce two vehicles to each other*.  This is achieved by more wee springs which operate at the gear box end of the coupler.

 

Older models of Kadee couplers used a separate spring assembly that fitted inside the gear box.  You can see one in the exploded view of the once nearly ubiquitous #5 coupler on this page of the Kadee web site: it's the folded up bit of bronze-y looking material in that picture.

 

Whisker couplers have the centering springs built in to the coupler - that's what the "whiskers" are.  So all they need is a gear box of the right size to allow the whiskers to bear on the interior sides of box so as to provide the self-centering.  Which means one less fiddly bit of gubbins to remember/get right/not damage or lose when you're assembling the coupler - which in turn is a bit of a boon for cack-handed idiots like me.

 

* That self-centering behaviour of the couplers is one reason why auto-coupling may not work reliably on curves (as Kadee themselves do warn).  That's because the coupler heads are less likely to be correctly aligned as they come together on a curve than they are when both vehicles are on the same stretch of straight track.

[john new]

Thanks for the answers above. My background to this query:-

 

Tension locks - I can live with the look but find these days there are so many variations from the original Tri-ang single bar design (which did work properly) that it isn't reliable. I also want hands-free, magnetic, uncoupling options for the long-term.

 

Modified tension lock - several designs around but all require modifications (obvious!) and logic suggests they will inevitably retain the basic problem of the t/l design, in that however much you modify them for uncoupling the basic incompatibilities of size/shape will remain. Swapping all of them to one-make, perhaps PECO's Anita, might work but if going for a change on all stock then other choices below give a better answer.

 

Three link - a lot of faffing about to fit, great for pulling, but need massively large curves so that stock can be pushed using just the buffers. I don't have the space. Manual only, not automatic.

 

Sprat and winkle - overcomes many of the issues with three link but still needs a lot of fitting, needs a bar on the buffers for pushing, and large radius curves are recommended. Have used it on other people's layouts, sometime ago I bought a trial pack, but haven't progressed it as the Kadee option seems a better fit.

 

Buckeye styles - Having grown up with the H-Dublo (Peco patent) couplings the Kadee looks the nearest to that type. The HD/Peco  design works well as a coupling up device, is easy to lift stock off compared with  t/ls but has snags for auto-uncoupling. However, when I designed the current shunting plank I wasn't aware of the problem regarding curves on Kadees but it will only affect one place where I will want to cut a rake..

 

However, my intent is to try it out on a few wagons hence asking what the best starter option is to move from zero experience with them to a trial. I think my mind is definitely made up to go for a Kadee trial as the best option, with the magnets (now bought) fitted as per Signaller69's method on his Dunnington layout.

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by john new

[melmerby]

A couple of my recent conversions/fittings

 

#18 glued to bottom of NEM socket on wrong height Bachmann wagon:

(The glue is Wilko clear contact adhesive, most others such as superglue  & poly cement don't work)

 

#146 with #242 gear box screwed into plastic block glued to floor of a Cooper Craft wagon:

(The plastic block was made from several different layers of plastic sheet to get the right thickness)

Edited September 2, 2019 by melmerby

[Jeff Smith]

This clearly illustrates the benefit of the correct pattern gearbox putting the pivot point well behind the buffer beam.  However it looks to me that the buffers would touch when going round a significant curve.

[kevinlms]

17 minutes ago, Jeff Smith said:

However it looks to me that the buffers would touch when going round a significant curve.

 

Agreed, the distance that the coupler internal face, is what determines the minimum radius that buffer locking  occurs at. If tighter radii are required, then the coupler will need to protrude further.

Obviously not a design fault in Kadees, but a fact of life with buffered stock.

[BR60103]

For compatibility, all the bits that couple will work together. The big differences are all at the end that mounts on the vehicle. 

There are variations from the standard coupler -- "scale" and "old-timey" which are smaller. The owner of Lostock Junction is replacing the small number of scale couplers with standard size.

 

I think the "Talgo" mounts are intended for North American prototype talgo trucks -- Mantua or Tyco (for you old timers) or possibly Rivarossi and LifeLike. 

 

[Sol]

And talgo trucks/bogies are OK for pulling usually but not ideal for pushing

https://en.mimi.hu/modelrailroad/talgo.html

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

This clearly illustrates the benefit of the correct pattern gearbox putting the pivot point well behind the buffer beam.  However it looks to me that the buffers would touch when going round a significant curve.

They are actually further apart when pulling than it looks!

The sharpest radius I have is the inner curve on a Peco Code 75 curved point which they will traverse happily, either pushing or pulling.

This is how sharp a turn to get buffers touching: (about 15" radius?)

 

Note the stiffness of the NEM Mount and the spring for the head means the "proper" Kadee coupling swings the most.

That's why as many of my conversions as possible have whisker couplings in a gear box.

Edited September 3, 2019 by melmerby

[josh_will]

On 03/09/2019 at 01:42, melmerby said:

A couple of my recent conversions/fittings

 

#18 glued to bottom of NEM socket on wrong height Bachmann wagon:

(The glue is Wilko clear contact adhesive, most others such as superglue  & poly cement don't work)

 

#146 with #242 gear box screwed into plastic block glued to floor of a Cooper Craft wagon:

(The plastic block was made from several different layers of plastic sheet to get the right thickness)

 

What’s with the 12k SMT resistor on the axle?