Kadee Couplers

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, melmerby said:

There should be a phosphor bronze thingy looking like a small tray, except the sides act as springs against the flats on the coupling to centre it.

It goes on after the coupling but before any washers.*

The mount is like many North American vehicles in that it is for a standard #5 coupler

 

* or maybe not:

https://www.kadee.com/documents/standardcouplersins.pdf

My club had a rake of vehicles with those couplers and the delayed feature wouldn't work. People played with them with graphite, cleaning burrs, cursing etc.

I had a look and discovered that the springs had been put in at the bottom, instead of the top, as per the drawing. The spring has different tension on each side (length of spring) and so promptly closed when seperated.

Taking them all apart and reversing the springs fixed them - read the instructions, guys and girls.

[5BarVT]

16 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

read the instructions,

But not until everything else has been tried . . .    :-)

Actually, I’m with Kevin, they can be fiddly but do work provided you use them as they are designed to be used!

Paul.

[Alcanman]

1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

I am using the wrong type of coupler I think.
I have something that looks like this:

 

But no box or anything.

It's just what came with the cleaner - didn't think that it should have a mounting box...  Hmm.
I'll take a photo after work and edit it into this post.

That's a #148 coupler and it comes with a coupler box. It does not require the type of centering spring that comes with a #5.   

[ejstubbs]

But the #148, like the other whisker couplings, does require a gear/draft box or something for the whisker springs to act on.  Unless, perhaps, something of the sort has been built in to the mounting point under the CMX cleaning wagon?  Actually, I have a vague recollection that the Kadee #5 is designed to work with built-in draft boxes that are/were common on US HO stock - but I may well be utterly and disastrously mistaken in that belief.  Not knowing what the mounting point on the CMX cleaning wagon looks like makes it difficult to offer any more helpful advice.   Perhaps if Sir TophamHatt could post a photo of said mounting point - as viewed from the underside of the wagon - then things might become clearer?

[ISW]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Are they 100% aligned down the centre (perhaps center, since it's a US product!) line of the vehicle? Even a slight offset, will cause a coupler to go the wrong way. The centring springs are finely made to make then centre and if not mounted correctly, will dause all sorts of trouble.

Kevin,

 

Thanks for the advice, I'd not thought about that one. Me thinks I have a few Kadees that were not installed 100% on the track centreline, and might be out by ~0.5mm. I'll have to check again to see which vehicles are affected and do some repairs / re-aligning.

 

[ejstubbs]

Might also be worth checking that none of them have a whisker trapped between the draft box and the lid of same.  I've make this mistake a couple of times and in both instances the coupler looked fine when in tension or just at rest, but went skew-wiff when you put propelling forces through it.

[ISW]

2 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

Might also be worth checking that none of them have a whisker trapped between the draft box and the lid of same.  I've make this mistake a couple of times and in both instances the coupler looked fine when in tension or just at rest, but went skew-wiff when you put propelling forces through it.

 

Will have to check that as well then. Thanks for the hint.

 

[melmerby]

11 hours ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

I am using the wrong type of coupler I think.
I have something that looks like this:

 

But no box or anything.

It's just what came with the cleaner - didn't think that it should have a mounting box...  Hmm.
I'll take a photo after work and edit it into this post.

Did you buy the CMX second hand?

I ask because mine came fitted wih a #5 each end an a couple of Airfix medium style tension locks in the box (supplied by the UK retailer)

One end is still as supplied.

The #5s aren't a whisker coupler and need the phosphor bronze spring fitting to centre them.

I'll post a picture later.

The mount on the CMX is substitute for a draft box.

Edited November 1, 2019 by melmerby

[melmerby]

A picture of my CMX with a #5 one end and nothing t'other showing the mount as effectively a draft box

Centring spring shown separate.

 

PS any suggestions for some new material, I got rid of my corded trousers years ago!

[BR60103]

That is very much the type of box that the #5 was designed for. The original centering spring projected a bit towards the center of the car.  And most of the cars it was aimed at were plastic (check for electrical continuity between wheels and coupler).  

The original centering springs were straight on each side; when delayed uncoupling was introduced they put a joggle in one side.

 

I just noticed.  The screw on the left end seems to be pushing on the centering spring.  The normal mounting has a stiff plate filling this spot.  You might be able to bodge one from the #5 coupler box or a piece of plasticard. The bits may need support at the outer end.

 

[Sol]

And the centreing spring is supposed to be  top of the coupler - not the bottom.

[ejstubbs]

All illustrated in stunning clarity by this picture on the page about the #5 coupler on the Kadee web site:

 

 

Manufacturers provide readily accessible information about how to use their products.  Who knew?

 

And yes, I could have gone and found that myself before burbling on in a semi-uniformed fashion in my earlier post   What's interesting is that Kadee also have a photo of a #148 whisker coupler fitting in to the moulded-on draft box on exactly the same wagon:

 

 

Which suggests to me that Sir TophamHatt might well be able to use his #148 coupler on his CMX cleaner wagon* provided that he can locate/fabricate the/a cover plate for the moulded-in (or, in the CMX case, cast-in) draft box.  The cover plate stops the coupling from falling out and helps to keep it at the correct height.  It might be possible to achieve the same result with judicious use of washers under the screw head but, given how much the illustrated draft box cover appears to protrude in to the draft box, I rather doubt it.  Bear in mind that the screw should not bear down on the coupling: the coupling should be free to pivot about the post into which the securing screw, er...screws, with the springs keeping the coupling centred in the no-load condition.

 

* The #5 and coupler and the whisker couplers use different draft boxes.  It's not clear from the Kadee web site what the exact internal dimensions of the two types of draft box are.  Externally, the #232 draft box for the #5 seems to be 1/64 of an inch narrower and 1/64 inch longer than the #242 whisker coupler draft box.  But the photo of the #148 coupler being mounted in to a moulded-on draft box does seem to suggest quite strongly that Kadee believe any difference which may exist in the internal dimensions of the two draft box types can be ignored for practical purposes.  I doubt they would choose to be deliberately misleading.

Edited November 2, 2019 by ejstubbs
Missing link

[melmerby]

5 hours ago, BR60103 said:

I just noticed.  The screw on the left end seems to be pushing on the centering spring.  The normal mounting has a stiff plate filling this spot.  You might be able to bodge one from the #5 coupler box or a piece of plasticard. The bits may need support at the outer end.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sol said:

And the centreing spring is supposed to be  top of the coupler - not the bottom.

That's exactly how it came from CMX

 

It works fine (the coupling isn't normally hanging down, that was me!)

Edited November 2, 2019 by melmerby

[Jeff Smith]

I believe the Whisker couplers are designed to be direct replacements for the #5.  Both are metal and in the Kadee illustrations above are shown using the same molded on draft box.  Bachmann USA produces equivalent couplers to the Whisker series but are plastic except for the trip pin and the jaw spring, the centering spring (whiskers) are plastic.

[Geep7]

I standardised on the #148 for my US outline stock, replacing a lot of my #5's, just because they seemed to be much more reliable in service. The whisker spring doesn't seem to deform as much as the brass spring inlay for the #5. This is just from my experience of course, and using them on 3 exhibition layouts. I've not noticed any issue with using the #148 in the same draft box that a #5 comes with or in, so I don't think that's a problem. I also have some of the narrow draft boxes as well, which can be useful for some stock. When I moved back to British outline modelling, I also have been using Kadee #148, and not had any problems. They seem to work rather well with the neodymium magnets as well.

 

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

On 30/10/2019 at 11:34, melmerby said:

 

 

Here's my CMX cleaner.

Is the box actually required? 

[kevinlms]

27 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

 

Here's my CMX cleaner.

Is the box actually required? 

Not sure what the screw and that red washer thing does. Does the coupler still have sideways movement?

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Not sure what the screw and that red washer thing does. Does the coupler still have sideways movement?

That should work as when the screw & washer are fully home there is still some play for the coupling.

It's the same fixing as mine but using a whisker coupler instead of a #5 + spring unit.

You don't need a bottom piece as the washer takes it's place.

[Sir TophamHatt]

19 hours ago, kevinlms said:

Not sure what the screw and that red washer thing does. Does the coupler still have sideways movement?

 

Yep, still is able to go round the corners.

 

The washer was on the other side of it, which then made it hang lower than the gauging tool suggested it should.

 

I guess if it works...

[47137]

On 29/10/2019 at 16:15, Sir TophamHatt said:

Can you purchase step up / step down connectors?

 

Thinking something that would fit into the pocket, then raise a little, then provide another pocket for you to slot your kadee into.

 

I have a BR218 (Peco Piko) class loco that has an NEM pocket, but the kadee sits too low. Because of how the pocket is, I don't think there's any opportunity to raise or lower it. 

 

My suggestion for models with NEM 363 pockets at a non-standard height:

 

Knuckle height is adjustable from "normal" (flat) to normal minus approx 3 mm (cranked).

Overall length is very close to that of a Kadee #19.

 

Parts list:

Head from any Kadee NEM coupler - the pivot pin is tapered and goes out upwards to remove the head

Kadee / NEM 363 (wedge) conversion piece, from a fret of four supplied by A and H Models of Brackley

NEM 362 (socket) / NEM 363 (wedge) conversion piece from the Roco height-adjustable universal coupler, pack of ten Roco p/n 40396

 

Howzat!

 

- Richard.

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, 47137 said:

 

My suggestion for models with NEM 363 pockets at a non-standard height:

 

Knuckle height is adjustable from "normal" (flat) to normal minus approx 3 mm (cranked).

Overall length is very close to that of a Kadee #19.

 

Parts list:

Head from any Kadee NEM coupler - the pivot pin is tapered and goes out upwards to remove the head

Kadee / NEM 363 (wedge) conversion piece, from a fret of four supplied by A and H Models of Brackley

NEM 362 (socket) / NEM 363 (wedge) conversion piece from the Roco height-adjustable universal coupler, pack of ten Roco p/n 40396

 

Howzat!

 

- Richard.

I suppose you could fit the other way up to get + adjustments

[47137]

12 minutes ago, melmerby said:

I suppose you could fit the other way up to get + adjustments

 

Yes it works both ways. I don't have any Bachmann stock to experiment on, but maybe you could cut off the trip pin and put the Kadee head quite high up, close to the scale location of a UK buckeye coupler e.g. on a Mk1 coach. Might look quite good.

 

- Richard.

 

 

[Sol]

An interesting topic re the brass centreing spring for Kadee couplers

http://cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/278227.aspx?page=1

especially this post
 

Harrison, the box spring is designed to "only" to be installed "on top of the coupler". If you look closely at at the spring you will see a big difference in the spring arms. As mentioned, there's a strong and weak side to help with uncoupling and delayed action. Also, note the end of the shank on the #5 type of couplers have different angles that are not symmetrical and these match the different spring arm angles. This is why it's important to always have the spring on top. If the spring is installed on the bottom it may work OK but eventually there will be problems. Note that when the couplers are coupled and in operation this takes the centering spring out of the performance issue so the spring on the bottom has no affect. It's when the coupler has to be uncoupled and centered properley that problems will arise and the spring may wear out faster. Remember that this is all late 1950s technology which is still the most popular in our coupler line, presently even more than our whisker couplers.

 Sam Clarke R&D Kadee Quality Products

[ISW]

Kadee Fitting to old Hornby Freighliner Wagons (R633 et all)

 

Has anyone successfully equipped the old Hornby Freighliner Wagons with Kadee couplings? And if they did, what coupling type did they use, and how did they fit it? A photo would be helpful .....

 

 

[Sir TophamHatt]

Is there a bit of a list on what couplings should be used for what locos / wagons?

 

For example, I have purchased some Bachmann EWS HTA hoppers. Most of mine are #19s, but not sure if that would be too long for the hoppers?