Kadee Couplers

[Butler Henderson]

47 minutes ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Is there a bit of a list on what couplings should be used for what locos / wagons?

 

For example, I have purchased some Bachmann EWS HTA hoppers. Most of mine are #19s, but not sure if that would be too long for the hoppers?

Can differ depending on what radius curves you are running them around in order to avoid buffer locking. Start out with one that has the rear inside face of the knuckle at least in line with (or more forward of) the buffer heads and then check if buffer locking occurs indicating a longer one is needed.

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, Sir TophamHatt said:

Is there a bit of a list on what couplings should be used for what locos / wagons?

 

No.  As Butler Henderson explained, it depends in part on the minimum radius curve that you're going to want to propel the stock around, so there can't really be such a thing as a single definitive list.  What works on one layout may not work on another with tighter curves; contrariwise, what has to be used in order to work on a layout with trainset surves may look daft on a layout with gentler curves where closer coupling can be accommodated.  As an added complication, it can also vary depending on what stock is going to be coupled to what - short wheelbase wagons, long wheelbase wagons, bogie stock, coaching stock with close coupling mechanisms etc etc (though Kadees are not ideal for bogie stock with close coupling mechanisms anyway - they can struggle to actuate the close coupling mechanism effectively).

 

Basically, it comes down to experimenting with your stock on your layout to see what works and what doesn't.

 

If you think your #19s may be unnecessarily long it should be easy enough to try #18s, given that they're NEM couplings.

[melmerby]

For safety when propelling the buffers on stock should barely touch on the sharpest curve you have, the Kadees need to be doing the pushing.

If you end up propelling with the buffers you are likely to have trouble getting the couplers to work reliably.

 

As mentioned above Kadees on close coupler fitted stock is a bad idea.

When pulling I had numerous derailments as the train came off a curve and when pushing the close couplers push side ways and can again cause problems.

Best things to use are the Hornby close couplers or the shorter Roco coupler or a combination of the two.

Edited January 8, 2020 by melmerby

[John ks]

On 08/01/2020 at 00:18, ISW said:

Kadee Fitting to old Hornby Freighliner Wagons (R633 et all)

 

Has anyone successfully equipped the old Hornby Freighliner Wagons with Kadee couplings? And if they did, what coupling type did they use, and how did they fit it? A photo would be helpful .....

 

 

I believe these are the wagon you are talking about

 

I used #158 (scale head medium whiskers) any medium length coupler in an appropriate box would do

On the buffer end I used #156 (scale head long whiskers)

The wheels are IIRC  Walthers HO 36" wheelsets 

The bogie mounted coupling has been cut off

 

 

John

[Sir TophamHatt]

Sorry, another question.

 

I have a bunch of #146 packs - I think as someone suggested they could be used to fit MK3 coaches.  Now Hornby have announced another run of INTERCITY MK3s (I assume that come with NEM pockets), I guess won't need them.

 

Can someone show me a bogie / coupling that the 146 (or similar) Kadees replace?

Just want to know whether they're going to be any good for any other stock I have.

[John ks]

Sir Top Hatt

Just a reminder that Kadee's are primarily for the HO US market, using them on OO models can require some experimentation (bodging) .

The #146 packs are the same dimensions as the #156 except the head (knuckle) is standard size whereas the #146 has the "scale" or smaller head

I like to body mount couplings where I can as shown on my previous post (just before yours)

I now use #156 in a 262 box on most buffered stock I convert 

About the time when Triang CKD kits were new I first discovered Kadee couplings & IIRC my first conversions were Mk1 CKD kits & #5 Kadees

 

When I look back on those conversions I see how crude they were, but they worked. Most of those coaches now have Lima bogies & body mounted couplings & in the last 10 years the Lima wheels have been pulled of the axles & replaced with Bachmann wheels

 

hope this helps

 

John

 

[ISW]

9 hours ago, John ks said:

I believe these are the wagon you are talking about

 

I used #158 (scale head medium whiskers) any medium length coupler in an appropriate box would do

On the buffer end I used #156 (scale head long whiskers)

The wheels are IIRC  Walthers HO 36" wheelsets 

The bogie mounted coupling has been cut off

 

 

John

John,

 

Splendid fellow, exactly what I was looking for. 

 

I must admit, I was thinking that I'd have to fit the Kadees to the bogies. I installed some on Lima coach bodies, and then had all manner of buffer locking issues. But since, of course, the Freightliner wagons are bufferless (FFA), I can see your implementation is suitable. 

 

On your FGA (buffered) conversion, may I ask where you obtained the buffers, and are these a good representation?

 

[ISW]

Kadee Fitting to old Hornby Freightliner Wagons (R633 et all)

 

In the end I found a way to install Kadee #158 on the bogie, and still have the correct height.

1. The existing coupling was cut off, leaving a 9mm flat part.
2. A 20mm long styrene extension was glued to the 9mm flat.
3. The Kadee was screwed to the extension.

 

Height & extension check:

 

Seems about right. I'll have to do 2 wagons to fully verify though.

 

[John ks]

ISW

Regarding the buffers. It was about 40 to 55 years ago that I added the buffers. They may be Romford, the may have come from Eames, or a local hobby shop, my memory going back that far is a little vague.

Your conversion in the previous post looks about the same as I did originally (40/55Yrs ago), the change to body mounting was recent(in the last 10Yrs).

Regarding buffer lock on Lima coaches I don't have that problem on my layout(min main line Rad 2' 6" Except a couple spots at 22"in yards)

I took these coaches to a friends layout with tighter curves than mine & did suffer the dreaded buffer lock

Here is a couple of picks of the Lima conversion

Originally both coaches had Kadee #5's , the one on the to has been upgraded to a #158, I did this when I changed the wheels(Bachmann wheels on the original Lima axle)

 

 

The coupling isn't as close as I would like, I could try retracting the buffers & moving the couplings or She'll be wright mate

 

 

John

[Geep7]

One tip to avoid buffer lock, especially when body mounting Kadees, is to ensure that the inner face of the Kadee knuckle is a least as far out from the vehicle end as the buffer face.

 

With this I can get Mk1 length coaches to go round 2ft radius curves and through small radius Peco points as a crossover with no issues.

[TRAILRAGE]

Need a bit of advice as I'm not sure what the equivalent Kaydee is. I have a long shank ESTATE on my Bachmann MBA  but I would like to fit tne Kaydee equivalent to my littlemans Dapol MBA'S. Problem is I don't know which one to go for. I'm gonna need Draught boxes to but the No5 is to short. In tne Pics below the short one is the no5 the other is the Ezmate. 

 Anyone have any idea which Kaydee I'm gonna need?

 

Much obliged Trailrage

 

[Butler Henderson]

No 5s are medium length do you need a long version instead 36,46,146 or 156 depending on draft box and knuckle size.

 

[Jeff Smith]

The Kadee equivalent for the Bachmann E-Z coupler is the Whisker range.  They are superior with metal construction and metal whisker springs.  The standard E-Z coupler is medium length cente-set.  The Whisker range has three lengths and three heights and each pack comes with gear-boxes.

 

The No 5 is somewhat antiquated now.

[ejstubbs]

1 hour ago, Jeff Smith said:

The No 5 is somewhat antiquated now.

 

I suspect that the reasons that some people are still wedded to the #5 are that they're cheap, can be bought in bulk and - because they don't have "whiskers"* - they can just be screwed in to a suitable position on pretty much any item of rolling stock (or a suitably-positioned 'something' glued to same).  The latter practice does rather negate a key advantage of the Kadee mounting system IMO.

 

* One can of course simply cut the whiskers off a #14x coupler if you really can't find a way to get one of the three types of draft box to fit.

[melmerby]

47 minutes ago, ejstubbs said:

 

I suspect that the reasons that some people are still wedded to the #5 are that they're cheap, can be bought in bulk

Are they really any cheaper than the whisker couplers, which you can also bulk buy?

Looking at the US price list the whisker coupler bulk packs are no more expensive.

[Butler Henderson]

Downside of using 5s (which actually should be a 48) is they are typically too short on buffer equipped stcok and the draft box projects beyond the bufferbeam whereas using a long version gets the draft box behind the bufferbeam.

[gwrrob]

Talking of the price of Kadee's and I've noticed the range of 17-20 has jumped up from around a fiver to eight sheets a pack in some retailers. I'm guessing Brexit has played its part here.

[Ravenser]

29 minutes ago, gwrrob said:

Talking of the price of Kadee's and I've noticed the range of 17-20 has jumped up from around a fiver to eight sheets a pack in some retailers. I'm guessing Brexit has played its part here.

 

Since they are US made it shouldn't have. Sterling has gone back to relatively high levels against the dollar recently

[Matt]

If it helps i've fitted Kadees to all my 150ish locos, some of my 150 carriages and most of my >300 wagons from all major UK manufactures and kit makers.  Where the NEM pockets are at right height and it works for me i have found #19's the most common though i have used a fair number of #20s, some #18s and very rarely #17s.  In a large number of cases (including all Bachmann LWB wagons - e.g. VDA, OBA) i have given up with the NEM mounts and have found by far the best Kadee option to be the 141/146/149.  These are long enough to keep the box flush with the bufferbeam and as whisker couplers are easier to assemble and more reliable than the 41/46/49 series which uses a copper spring insert.  The 3 different numbers give centreset / underset and overset options which will depend on the height of the mounting location.

 

My interests are UK 1970s to present day and i run up to Rad2 (more normally Rad3) curves including gradients and helices.

 

There are certainly some examples of "difficult" customers for fitting and some that require a bit of fettling to get working - too many to list here but Hornby 60s/56s with their cam mechanism are particularly notable for being problematic.

 

It is worth mentioning that i have found that if propelling rakes of coaches that Kadees aren't the best option - for that i rely on Hornby/Roco close couplers which provide a more solid coupling (the Hornby being a longer version of Roco's).  For economy and tighter coupling within a fixed rake i have used these on occasion too but be aware that there needs to be movement in the coupling mount for them to work (i.e. doesn't work in Accurascales HTO wagon for example).  I have dabbled in Hunt Couplings more recently but apart from use within my HST and Hornby Mk3 sleeper sets (easy option for odd height NEMs & clip couplings) i haven't really ventured far...

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, gwrrob said:

Talking of the price of Kadee's and I've noticed the range of 17-20 has jumped up from around a fiver to eight sheets a pack in some retailers. I'm guessing Brexit has played its part here.

Dc Kits are still selling them at £2.50 pair.

That's where I get mine from

[melmerby]

3 minutes ago, Matt said:

If it helps i've fitted Kadees to all my 150ish locos, some of my 150 carriages and most of my >300 wagons from all major UK manufactures and kit makers.  Where the NEM pockets are at right height and it works for me i have found #19's the most common though i have used a fair number of #20s, some #18s and very rarely #17s.

Never found the need for a #20 and rarely #19 , most of mine are #18 if NEM fitted.

Rakes of coaches with cams use Roco & Hornby close couplers in rake and Kadee on end coaches.

 

IMHO Bachmann are the worst manufacturer due to the numerous non standard "NEM" fittings that use cranked couplers (various different offsets) and/or extra long or short Tension Locks.

Note to manufacturers (not just Bachmann!)  it is not an "NEM Pocket" if it doesn't meet the NEM spec.

It's rather like saying a 13A plug is a BS plug even if the pins are in different positions

I keep a full set of #141 - #149 for doing non NEM fitted rolling stock and have used all on different occasions.

[Matt]

I would agree Bach has most variations in NEM mount. #20s I’ve had try to use are generally Bach Mk1s and 2s as well as Hornby HAAs. Sounds like we’re agreed on 14x series!
M

[ejstubbs]

6 hours ago, melmerby said:

Are they really any cheaper than the whisker couplers, which you can also bulk buy?

 

I've not seen bulk packs of the #14x couplers on any UK web site on past occasions when I've been looking.  But if someone is now doing them then great.

[Matt]

I've not seen bulk packs either and i've found that there are few UK stockists of Kadee, particularly once you go beyond the #17-20 range.  Recently i have been purchasing #19s in bulk from Charlie @ DCKits - not bulk packs per se but he repackages 10/20 at a time for a decent price.  Less wasted packaging too.  I guess Charlie must get them in in bulk bulk packs to do this but don't know for a fact.  I can't recall if he offers same with other parts of Kadee range as not bought any recently.  If someone knows of retailers offering bulk packs of other Kadees then i would also be interested.

M

Edit: just looked on DCKits website and they do make up bulk packs of 14x series couplers - looks like price reduces the more you buy.  If like the #19s then won't be proper Kadee supplied bulk packs but certainly a more economic way of purchasing. No connection to DCKits but have had decent service from Charlie over several years.

Edited February 27, 2021 by Matt

[roundhouse]

12 hours ago, melmerby said:

Never found the need for a #20 and rarely #19 , most of mine are #18 if NEM fitted.

 

These can be handy if the longer shanks are drilled and screwed / wire tabs to the stub of an older moulded on tension lock coupler after the coupling bit has been chopped off. I have been doing this very recently with some of my Hornby bubble car chassis. I also did the same with the Bachamnn Bullied coaches many years ago by drilling through the non standard height NEM boxes.