Kadee Couplers

[Il Grifone]

Link to the couplers on 'Aliexpress'.

https://it.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20210701035608&SearchText=H0+knuckle+couplers

 

The US prototype  height for knuckle couplers is 33½" (in H0 scale 9.77mm - as near as makes no difference 3/8").

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janney_coupler

 

The British position is on the buffer centre line - 3' 5½" nominal (slightly lower in the case of loading and/or tyre wear). A Kadee will require modification if set at this height or it will not uncouple.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Il Grifone

[melmerby]

33 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

Link to the couplers on 'Aliexpress'.

https://it.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20210701035608&SearchText=H0+knuckle+couplers

 

The US prototype  height for knuckle couplers is 33½" (in H0 scale 9.77mm - as near as makes no difference 3/8").

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janney_coupler

 

The British position is on the buffer centre line - 3' 5½" nominal (slightly lower in the case of loading and/or tyre wear). A Kadee will require modification if set at this height or it will not uncouple.

 

"Spiacenti, la vostra ricerca "H0 knuckle couplers" non corrisponde ad alcun prodotto. Siete pregati di riprovare."

 

However in English:

https://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20210701043410&SearchText=HO+knuckle+couplers

[Il Grifone]

Sorry!

The  link works for me, but I didn't notice it was in Italian! (Bad habits picked up in Sardinia, like driving on the wrong side of the road!)

Edited July 1, 2021 by Il Grifone

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, Il Grifone said:

Link to the couplers on 'Aliexpress'.

https://it.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20210701035608&SearchText=H0+knuckle+couplers

 

The US prototype  height for knuckle couplers is 33½" (in H0 scale 9.77mm - as near as makes no difference 3/8").

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janney_coupler

 

The British position is on the buffer centre line - 3' 5½" nominal (slightly lower in the case of loading and/or tyre wear). A Kadee will require modification if set at this height or it will not uncouple.

True, but only where a knuckle coupler is employed on the prototype.

 

This thread has been about a general application of Kadees to OO models of (other) UK locomotives and rolling stock; i.e. as couplers for models, not as models of couplers. For convenience and interoperability, most of we who so use them "obey" the gauge Kadee make for HO.

 

Such discussions are always complicated by the fact that manufacturers of UK-outline r-t-r have not been consistent in positioning the NEM pockets that, if done properly, would make coupler swaps so simple as to render a thread on the subject unnecessary. 

 

Where using more "traditional" Kadees rather than the NEM pattern heads, the underside of r-t-r OO wagon chassis conveniently fall at the ideal height to attach a #146 whisker coupler in perfect conformity with the gauge. 

 

John 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[D9020 Nimbus]

23 hours ago, melmerby said:

Europe?

Probably more in the UK due to the ubiquitous Tension Lock, which doesn't appear much in Europe, which seems to have better solutions.

As far as I can tell they are rarely used in Europe, where the various close-coupling solutions are preferred. These require couplers which lock positively together, which Kadees (and tension-locks) do not. Given the vast majority of UK stock is not fitted with the swing-link mechanism required, such couplings are impractical on most UK stock.

[melmerby]

1 hour ago, Dunsignalling said:

 

Where using more "traditional" Kadees rather than the NEM pattern heads, the underside of r-t-r OO wagon chassis conveniently fall at the ideal height to attach a #146 whisker coupler in perfect conformity with the gauge. 

 

John 

 

 

Agree

I have many non 'NEM' pocket and plenty of wrong height 'NEM' pocket rolling stock fitted with couplings in the 14x range.

[mattrose]

The wagons I'm going to be using the Kadee #19 on have the NEM pocket on a swivel like frame under the wagon body so should hopefully work.

 

I'm unsure which hunt couplings would work instead, I'll have to have a trial and error period of couplings.

 

[47137]

On 30/06/2021 at 00:00, roythebus1 said:

For the of you trying to fit Kadees to the wrong height Baccy boxes, I use the round edge of a hot soldering iron tip to bend a Z shape on the Kadee coupling tail. first upwards, then a second bit downwards. Just make sure you don't twist the tail out of line with the coupler head.

 

 

Yet another solution, for Bachmann coaches at least, is to use a small self-tapper to fix a Kadee NEM coupler onto the underside of the wrong-height NEM box:

 

I read about this somewhere on RMweb.

 

Mounting Kadees onto cams is an unhappy combination. It may be best to lock up the pivot on the Kadee NEM head e.g. cyano, but I cannot try this out and find out anything useful because this is my only Bachmann coach.

 

- Richard.

[Jeff Smith]

That looks a bit too short to me - no buffer locking?

[47137]

16 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

That looks a bit too short to me - no buffer locking?

 

Yes and no - depends what I try to couple it to.

 

It is ok coupled to a loco - but only because all of my 00 locos are 4- and 6-coupled things with the back of the Kadee knuckle forward of their buffers.

 

Example on no.2 radius, the well tank has a no.19 coupler:

 

It would be sensible to put the screw further along the tail of the coupler, but this is my only 00 bogie coach.

 

Edit: I know this makes my layout look ridiculous. More representative photos here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/152888-shelf-marshes-first-attempt-at-a-cameo-layout/&do=findComment&comment=4473124

 

- Richard.

Edited July 5, 2021 by 47137

[frobisher]

19 hours ago, 47137 said:

Mounting Kadees onto cams is an unhappy combination. It may be best to lock up the pivot on the Kadee NEM head e.g. cyano, but I cannot try this out and find out anything useful because this is my only Bachmann coach.

 

This is one area the Bachmann EZ-Mate NEM couplers score on - best knuckle coupler to use for the MK2a on trainset curves IME.

[ISW]

On 01/07/2021 at 12:58, Il Grifone said:

Link to the couplers on 'Aliexpress'.

https://it.aliexpress.com/wholesale?catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20210701035608&SearchText=H0+knuckle+couplers

 

The US prototype  height for knuckle couplers is 33½" (in H0 scale 9.77mm - as near as makes no difference 3/8").

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janney_coupler

 

The British position is on the buffer centre line - 3' 5½" nominal (slightly lower in the case of loading and/or tyre wear). A Kadee will require modification if set at this height or it will not uncouple.

Has anyone tried these? Do they fit in the usual Kadee draft housings, either natively or with minor 'adjustments'?

 

Ian

[Jeff Smith]

Both the E-Z Mate and E-Z Mate II couplers will fit the Kadee Whisker gearbox (draft box) as is.  The original E-Z Mates have a plastic flap spring to close the jaw.  The improved mark II versions have coil springs, the same as the Kadee couplers.

[ISW]

11 hours ago, Jeff Smith said:

Both the E-Z Mate and E-Z Mate II couplers will fit the Kadee Whisker gearbox (draft box) as is.  The original E-Z Mates have a plastic flap spring to close the jaw.  The improved mark II versions have coil springs, the same as the Kadee couplers.

Jeff,

 

Thanks for the confirmation. Think I'll at least give the AliExpress KCs (Kadee Clones) a go. They'll be useful 'stock' for any unexpected requirements.

 

Ian

[47137]

I have discovered another coupler piece by Roco. This is a moulded plastic shank with a NEM363 slot on one end and a pivot hole and integral springs to fit into a Kadee draught gear box at the other end.

 

Example with a Roco universal head attached:

 

Now - know this isn't directly related to the business of installing Kadees, but it does show a way of putting different heads onto a model equipped with Kadee boxes. Which might be useful if you are taking a model to a friend's layout or, as in my case, you have built models and then turned away from Kadees for some of your stock.

 

I suppose, If you are really keen you could use this piece with a Kadee head in a 363 adaptor and arrive at a height-adjustable Kadee coupler in a different if slightly convoluted way.

 

- Richard.

[Dunsignalling]

A bit of backgound history:

 

The "Kadee" draft box is really just a free-standing version of the NMRA draft box that has, for some decades, been cast or moulded into the underframes of much US r-t-r rolling stock. Just like that illustrated in the previous post.

 

Those integral boxes/pockets are why Kadee sell bulk packs of their long-dominant #5 coupler along with the springs, but no boxes.

 

The boxes are produced to enable enable consistent fitting of couplers to stock that doesn't come so equipped, including UK outline these days, but that was not always so.

When I first began using them (1993), the coupler Kadee had traditionally marketed for use on stock with side buffers was the #16, which came with an altogether different draft box and used a coil spring to centre the shaft, an arrangement common to all Kadees prior to the advent of the #5, with its folded brass unit designed to fit the NMRA aperture.

 

Kadee evidently recognised how much more positively the #5 worked than the others and some time (c1990?) before I started to use them, they introduced the 20-series couplers, which were basically like #5s but available in a selection of lengths and offsets, albeit with shafts made from engineering plastic rather than metal. These covered almost any non-NMRA-compliant application, effectively replaced most of what had gone before, and the older types were gradually discontinued. The boxes on the #5 and 20-series were, however, somewhat more bulky than those that came with the older types, so a parallel range, using the same couplers with smaller housings and springing arrangements was introduced, the 30-series. 

 

Between them, the #26 and #36 effectively made the #16 redundant, but conservatism (or lack of awareness) among Kadee's clientele ensured it continued to be available for several more years. I was an early convert to the 26/36 but I still have two or three packets of #16s knocking around somewhere.... 

 

We then passed (albeit briefly) through the era of the 40-series, which were metal versions of the 20-series, and have, most recently, entered the age of the 140-series "Whisker" coupler, which does away with separate springs altogether and can be used with alternative draft boxes for cramped applications. If you need a coupler that is electrically inert, though, the 20- and 30-series still have a place. 

 

To make it all a bit simpler for beginners, the common factor for we who need longer couplers to go on stock with buffers, has always been that the numbers of "our" most useful Kadees end in a 6.

 

John 

Edited September 4, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[47137]

17 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

The "Kadee" draft box is really just a free-standing version of the NMRA draft box that has, for some decades, been cast or moulded into the underframes of much US r-t-r rolling stock. Just like that illustrated in the previous post.

 

John - I receive this as quite a compliment - my photo shows an ancient Lima coach with a plastic box I glued on and blended in with paint.

 

The rest of your post is just "wow", thank you for all of the background information. I want to think the 'whisker' couplers will become the standard fitment but the Kadee range seems as enormous as ever.

 

- Richard.

[ejstubbs]

18 hours ago, Dunsignalling said:

If you need a coupler that is electrically inert, though, the 20- and 30-series still have a place. 

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "electrically inert"?  I believe that the trip pin must be steel or some other ferromagnetic material and therefore conductive.

 

I'd agree that the good old #5, which is metal, when attached using a metal screw, can provide a path for current through the coupling to the chassis of the vehicle.  However, AFAIK (based on fitting a fair few of them to my stock) the whisker coupler gear box is all plastic, and the couplers pivot around an insulated sleeve, meaning that the coupler doesn't come in to contact with the screw* or any other conductive material, so there would be no electrical path to the chassis.

 

It's entirely possible that I've misunderstood your statement, or that I am unaware of specific circumstances where the insulation of the whisker coupler within the gear box is inadequate, in which case I am more than happy to be further enlightened!

 

(I would agree that for non-standard fitments, such as the old favourite/bodge on UK outline stock of simply screwing a #5 directly on to the vehicle using the tapped hole left when the TLC was removed, a non-conductive coupler might very well be required.)

 

* Kadee do offer the #256 insulated nylon screw, and similar screws are obtainable through distributors of hardware for modelling purposes and the like.

[melmerby]

If you have a CMX track cleaner, the standard coupling is a #5 in the draft box on the vehicle, complete with folded brass spring.

As the CMX is all brass, everything is electrically common.

[Dunsignalling]

2 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Can you clarify what you mean by "electrically inert"?  I believe that the trip pin must be steel or some other ferromagnetic material and therefore conductive.

 

I'd agree that the good old #5, which is metal, when attached using a metal screw, can provide a path for current through the coupling to the chassis of the vehicle.  However, AFAIK (based on fitting a fair few of them to my stock) the whisker coupler gear box is all plastic, and the couplers pivot around an insulated sleeve, meaning that the coupler doesn't come in to contact with the screw* or any other conductive material, so there would be no electrical path to the chassis.

 

It's entirely possible that I've misunderstood your statement, or that I am unaware of specific circumstances where the insulation of the whisker coupler within the gear box is inadequate, in which case I am more than happy to be further enlightened!

 

(I would agree that for non-standard fitments, such as the old favourite/bodge on UK outline stock of simply screwing a #5 directly on to the vehicle using the tapped hole left when the TLC was removed, a non-conductive coupler might very well be required.)

 

* Kadee do offer the #256 insulated nylon screw, and similar screws are obtainable through distributors of hardware for modelling purposes and the like.

The plastic-shafted couplers were originally intended for US locos with integral draft boxes in metal chassis castings. The usual "American" pick-up system made these live to one rail and if coupled together with another, electrically similar, loco facing the opposite way, a short circuit would result If conductive couplers were fitted.

 

Where couplers are fitted within plastic draft boxes, the issue doesn't arise, and It's a problem that we who use Kadees on UK-spec models only encounter in very specific and (for us) unusual circumstances.

 

John 

Edited September 5, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, melmerby said:

If you have a CMX track cleaner, the standard coupling is a #5 in the draft box on the vehicle, complete with folded brass spring.

As the CMX is all brass, everything is electrically common.

But, hopefully, not live to either rail....

 

John

[Dunsignalling]

5 hours ago, 47137 said:

 

John - I receive this as quite a compliment - my photo shows an ancient Lima coach with a plastic box I glued on and blended in with paint.

 

The rest of your post is just "wow", thank you for all of the background information. I want to think the 'whisker' couplers will become the standard fitment but the Kadee range seems as enormous as ever.

 

- Richard.

Very neatly done. I never even noticed  the origins of the coach! Compliment well-earned!

 

I've thought for a while that the 30-series may be surplus to requirements now we have the optional, smaller #252 draft boxes that convert whisker couplers to a very near equivalent.

 

However, we all tend to persist with methods that we've established despite simpler alternatives becoming available, and putting a whisker coupler in a #252 box qualifies (in spades) as "simpler" by comparison with assembling a 30-series, believe me!  

 

That said, the 30-series box is very marginally smaller and, whilst the #31/36 have (for convenience) ceased to be included in my "first choice" hierarchy of Kadees in favour of the whisker equivalents, there remains the odd application where  the difference is enough to be significant, and I still keep a packet of each in stock.  

 

I'd guess that, while there is continuing demand and the tooling remains serviceable, Kadee won't feel motivated to discontinue them.

 

John

Edited September 5, 2021 by Dunsignalling

[melmerby]

57 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

But, hopefully, not live to either rail....

 

John

Doubly insulated wheel sets

But it could conduct through if it is in a sandwich, with live chassis locos.

Edited September 5, 2021 by melmerby

[BR60103]

As one who was watching when the 5 came out originally:

The K10 was introduced late 50s to fit Athearn boxes. These had a large plastic post that a screw fitted through to hold the lid on. There were also K4 and K5 which were a previous standard; K5 came with a metal draft gear box.

K6, K7 and K8 had a different fitting which was very compact -- a little bushing with a projection and a circular spring.

This system continued when the MK magnetic couplers came out (about 62?). At some point the 5 was replaced by the 5&10 as the 10 was packaged with boxes.

When delayed coupling came about (MKD series) the other draft gear was redesigned and became much more bulky. I think it's had another revamp since. 

Then Kadee started to do mix and match on their designs with lengths of shafts and fittings high, medium and low on the heads.

 

I have just checked my collection. I still have a packet of the original K5. The draft gear box is metal and has to be rivetted together (the center post is mashed onto the lid), never to come asunder.  The shorting aspect would be offset by a wooden floor. 

Either the K7 or K8 came with one couple that had the head vetically offset. I think it was the K8.

 

[Dunsignalling]

What I regard as the "old type" Kadees, those with the "keyhole" aperture in the shaft to accommodate the coil centering spring, were #6, #7, #8, and #16.

 

The coupler with the head offset upwards was the #7, which I once used (on a couple of Mainline 03s IIRC) and I still have an unopened packet. Current equivalents are #27 and #37 (similar insulated shafts, but with different draft arrangements) and #147 (whisker type).

 

I never directly encountered the #6 or #8, but the shaft from the #6 was "cross-kitted" with the smaller draft box of the #7 to produce the #16 which, for many years, was the coupler Kadee prescribed for fitting to models with side buffers. Any current type with a 6 at the end will have the same reach/knuckle alignment.  Therefore, if you need to replace, say, a broken #16 (no longer made), you can be confident that a 26, 36 or 146 will do the job. 

 

ISTR that a coupler with a metal draft box was still listed when I got my first Kadee catalogue (mid-1990s), I still have it tucked away somewhere, but I can't currently find it (surprise!). 

 

Kadee have been almost religiously consistent over the years in that dimensions of any couplers with numbers ending in 6,7 or 8 directly equate to that early trio.

 

There is one apparent exception, that turns out not to be one after all. The equivalents of the #5 all end in 8, which seems to buck all the other consistency. However, whilst bearing almost no other resemblance to it, the geometry of the renowned #5 (arguably the product that "made" the company) was inherited from the earlier #8.... 

 

John

Edited September 6, 2021 by Dunsignalling