Pre-war and wartime road vehicles

[PhilJ W]

When I started the thread on what people would like to see from the likes of Oxford or Classix I did not realise how large and complex the subject would be. As a consequence I am splitting the subject into pre war/ wartime and post war. In the case of vehicles that straddle the demarcation line they will be included in the post 1945 list. I am starting this thread for the prewar vehicles.

[coachmann]

Prewar municipal buses have hardly ever been produced by the kit or RTR manufacturers. So a big yes for the standard Leyland TD5 double decker with Leyland bodywork. It sold all over the country including to London transport.

Also...

Daimler COG6 double decker with Northern Counties 'bathtub' bodywork

[Red Devil]

Brush or English Electric 3 or 4 window enclosed 4 wheel tram. Loads of liveries available, the 'carving up' possibilities are endless, Be exceptionally nice if the floor was in plastic or easy to remove for motorising.

 

Real pity that Corgi missed the target with their 1/64 (ish) 'Classics' Tram, a 1/76 version would have so many more uses.

 

Might not be the truest of road vehicles, but would be a great addtion (in my opinion) to the diecast scene.

[Guest Max Stafford]

Morris 'Tilly' and Fordson 7V. Both useful in civil or military form.

 

Dave.

[BernardTPM]

In the case of vehicles that straddle the demarcation line they will be included in the post 1945 list. I am starting this thread for the prewar vehicles.

 

I think it would be more sensible to include these in the pre-war category since these are basically pre-war designs and were mostly replaced by 1948 with true post-1945 models.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I'm inclined to agree with that Bernard, it seems more logical.

 

Dave.

[Coombe Barton]

Musings

 

Thing is you'd need very few vehicles of this age per layout unless you're going to model something like an export dock - roads were not packed in this era. So there's only going to be a limited market. Need something mundane - the Austin 7 (plenty of variants), the Morris 8, the Standard 9, 10, 12, the Hillman Minx - the run of the moll rather then the more specialist marques rather than the likes of Alvis or Jaguar.

 

In most railway modelling instances even the local Doctor would have an Austin 7, Standard or similar. So if we're after verisimilitude then the mundane will outnumber the spectacular. But we're talking market here - an etched brass basis shell plus 'bits' to get the curves and shapes to the wings may be practicable. Wonder if it would work?

[PhilJ W]

I think it would be more sensible to include these in the pre-war category since these are basically pre-war designs and were mostly replaced by 1948 with true post-1945 models.

 

The vehicles I had in mind were such as the 1939-1953 Ford Prefect and the Bedford 'O' series that also came out in 1939, both were rare prior to the war. In the case of the Bedford the OW military versions fits neatly into the 'wartime' category.

[PhilJ W]

Musings

 

Thing is you'd need very few vehicles of this age per layout unless you're going to model something like an export dock - roads were not packed in this era. So there's only going to be a limited market. Need something mundane - the Austin 7 (plenty of variants), the Morris 8, the Standard 9, 10, 12, the Hillman Minx - the run of the moll rather then the more specialist marques rather than the likes of Alvis or Jaguar.

 

In most railway modelling instances even the local Doctor would have an Austin 7, Standard or similar. So if we're after verisimilitude then the mundane will outnumber the spectacular. But we're talking market here - an etched brass basis shell plus 'bits' to get the curves and shapes to the wings may be practicable. Wonder if it would work?

I quite agree, but until the advent of the MOT test in 1960 pre war/wartime vehicles were quite common. Another few I would add to your list would be the Ford 'Y' and the Austin '10' of about 1937.

Basically we are talking about RTR models here, most of the models spoken about are available in kit form but are to expensive or difficult for many modellers.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

Brush or English Electric 3 or 4 window enclosed 4 wheel tram. Loads of liveries available, the 'carving up' possibilities are endless, Be exceptionally nice if the floor was in plastic or easy to remove for motorising.

 

Real pity that Corgi missed the target with their 1/64 (ish) 'Classics' Tram, a 1/76 version would have so many more uses.

Many tram systems were 3' 6" gauge, 16.5mm in 1/64 scale.

Might not be the truest of road vehicles, but would be a great addtion (in my opinion) to the diecast scene.

Another tram that could be considered is the LCC E3/HR2. Three HR2's were sold to Leeds in 1938.

[wamwig]

How about the Ford AA and BB and similar sized Bedfords, and Morris CV range?

 

Plenty of pre grouping scope there

[coachmann]

The Metro-Camm/Crossley double deck metal body on various chassis including Crossley Condor and Leyland Titan. It was a popular choice with municiple operators prewar and lasted into the mid 1950s. It was such a good body it was put on wartime/postwar chassis in some cases.

[PhilJ W]

Prewar municipal buses have hardly ever been produced by the kit or RTR manufacturers. So a big yes for the standard Leyland TD5 double decker with Leyland bodywork. It sold all over the country including to London transport.

Also...

Daimler COG6 double decker with Northern Counties 'bathtub' bodywork

I think that EFE produce a London STD which is the one that you are talking about. Leicester also had the Northern Counties body on mostly AEC chassis, including some 6 wheel Renowns. When talking about buses it is better to talk in the terms of body manufacturers as their products were fitted on a variety of different chassis, even the Leyland bodies you mentioned some found their way onto other makes of chassis. Many bus and coach bodies at the time looked very similar despite being made by rival companies, it would take an expert to tell the Northern Counties body you mentioned from one produced by Massey.

[shortliner]

Riley One and a half, Two and half, and Sportsmans Saloon, Morgan 3 and 4 wheeler, and the little Corgi scooter - ex WD paratroop machine immediately post war. Some suitable motor-cycles and sidecars too - a lot of people couldn't afford a car, but could afford a motor-bike

[PhilJ W]

Riley One and a half, Two and half, and Sportsmans Saloon, Morgan 3 and 4 wheeler, and the little Corgi scooter - ex WD paratroop machine immediately post war. Some suitable motor-cycles and sidecars too - a lot of people couldn't afford a car, but could afford a motor-bike

I mentioned the Morgan 3 wheeler and M/Cycle sidecar combinations on the original thread, none the worse for being mentioned again. Also I would prefer to see the end of the 'solid' wire wheels, they look awful! Surely it would be practical to tampo-print the wires onto a transparent plastic disc? Motorcycle sidecar combinations are a must for any steam era layout, 3 different motorcycles and 4 or 5 different sidecars gives loads of possibilities. The Riley 1.5 and 2.5 were post war models despite their 'pre-war' styling.

[DonB]

Not sure if this applies to pre-war, but Guy Motors at Wolverhampton produced Trolley Buses, and also Lorry chassis for (I believe) others to supply and fit cab and body. I used to see these chassis being driven through W'ton with the driver totally exposed and usually wearing RAF-style goggles and leather helmet.

[coachmann]

it would take an expert to tell the Northern Counties body you mentioned from one produced by Massey.

I must be an expert then...B)

 

I wasn't aware Leyland built their pre-war bodies on other makes of chassis apart from LT Trolleybus chassis.

[PhilJ W]

I must be an expert then...B)

 

I wasn't aware Leyland built their pre-war bodies on other makes of chassis apart from LT Trolleybus chassis.

Leyland only built bodies on their own chassis but many in later years were transfered to other makes of chassis by operators. East Midland placed Leyland bodies on some AEC Regal chassis just after the war. East Lancs coachbuilders used Leyland frames for some of their bodies and consequently they bore a marked resemblance, The same happened with Northern Counties and Massey resulting in a very similar appearance, this was due to one manufacturer having a very full order book and farming some of the work out.

Don. Very few pre war lorry manufacturers built their own cabs, Leyland is the only one that comes to mind. Some such as Foden had most of their cabs made by only one coachbuilder (Jennings of Sandbach). The mass producers such as Bedford, Commer and Ford produced their own cabs often sharing things such as doors with their car models. Almost all buses and coaches were supplied as chassis only but many were associated with a particular bodybuilder such as AEC/Park Royal, Bedford/Duple and Bristol/Eastern Counties.

 

 

[coachmann]

Leyland only built bodies on their own chassis but many in later years were transfered to other makes of chassis by operators. East Midland placed Leyland bodies on some AEC Regal chassis just after the war. East Lancs coachbuilders used Leyland frames for some of their bodies and consequently they bore a marked resemblance, The same happened with Northern Counties and Massey resulting in a very similar appearance, this was due to one manufacturer having a very full order book and farming some of the work out.

I don't think a manufacturer would be interested in just a very small number of oddballs. The prewar 6-bay or 5-bay all-Leyland is still by far the best bet. As regards the Northern Counties pre-war body, it was of unique shape with its front upperdeck windows almost the same as those at the back. But what happened postwar is outside the scope of this thread.

 

One body I forgot to mention was the characteristic Charles Roe straight-staircase body that sold all over Yorkshire and in Lancs. The trouble would start when model manufacturers produces this body on a Leyland TD5 or TD7 chassis then decides to put it on a Daimler COG6. It doesn't work without pushing the front bulkhead back and shortening all the window bays in order to keep the overall length within legal 26 feet.

[PhilJ W]

As I said I split this thread because it was getting to big and complex. As it is this thread had better be dealt with in four sections. Buses and coaches, this subject could almost have its own thread! Horse drawn and steam vehicles. Commercials. Cars and motorcycles. No section is exclusive, for example buses and coaches were sometimes built on lorry or even large car chassis, the latter were quite often used as lorries and vans.

[coachmann]

My memories of early postwar (1945-7) are of a busy Piccadilly in Manchester and trying to get into the road to the tram shelters with my mum. At night the trams lit up the pavements as they noisily ground past, sparks dropping from the overhead wires. Hyde market was awash with buses and a few trams, but move slightly away from town centres and all was very quiet. At Gee Cross, on the main Stockport road, all I saw were trams, buses, lorries and very few cars. Godley, an outlying village of Hyde, was as quiet as a mouse with just horse and carts and the local single deck Thorneycroft bus every half hour or so.

[vulcanbomber]

I model GWR and have been waiting for manufacturers to release suitable vehicles for OO

It would be to know what is presently available for pr-war

[PhilJ W]

Great pics #1 circa 1936 #2 circa 1947 #3 circa 1938 #4 1935 #5 circa 1936 #6 possibly post war late 40's #7 circa1930.

#2 The RT bus is a post war one but some of the cars and taxi's still retain the white blackout markings. #3 You are correct, it is an LT with an early body, only the first 50 had open stairs. The American car is a Packard. The Austin is a sixteen. #4 no problem in dating this one as Jubilee year was 1935. #5 The charabanc is a Lancia, unusual at this date but some of the cars are no earlier than 1935. #6 motorcyclist on the right is wearing battledress with no badges, quite common in late 40's. #7 The earliest photo, the car behind the lorry is a Jowett, the lorry itself is a Karrier of Great War vintage.

 

 

[PhilJ W]

That has been posted before, but none the worse for that.

[LH&JC]

Well the AEC Matador MK1 4x4 would be a good option, they were used for war, haulage, showground and timber work, and they lasted in service for a good couple of decades, especially the timber ones.